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Post by aldarron on Sept 30, 2009 12:26:50 GMT -6
Over at RPGnet Mike Mornard mentioned that the idea for the Monk came from Jim Ward and his love of the song "kung fu fighting". Okay. But then I realized that Jim Ward wasn't one of Arnesons Blackmoor players. Two players in Fin's list are listed as Monks but one is Sniders original Cleric "the flying monk" which seems to just be a kind of nickname, not a class reference really, and the other is Malia Arnesons Thief/Monk. Of course, Mr. Arneson was free to credit anyone as an original player if he saw fit, but I'm pretty sure that his daughter wasn't even born at the time, meaning she probably wasn't delving Blackmoor's dungeon until the 1980's. The Monk is not listed in the FFC list. I take it then that the Monk was a Gygax/Kask creation and one of their editions to supplement II. Anybody know anything for sure about it?
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 30, 2009 20:28:30 GMT -6
My recollection is that the monk originated for Dave's campaign and was inspired by the Destroyer books by Warren Murphy and Richard Sapier. (sp?)
I would have to look around to verify my source, however.
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Post by aldarron on Oct 1, 2009 11:58:28 GMT -6
Hmm.. the mystery deepens. Hope you can find that source Fin cause now I'm really curious.
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 1, 2009 12:15:18 GMT -6
Wikipedia credits the monk to Brian Blume. I thought this was a Blackmoor thing but may be mistaken. 
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Post by aldarron on Oct 1, 2009 19:33:27 GMT -6
Wikipedia! well I'll be buggered. Never Thought of looking there.
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Post by coffee on Oct 1, 2009 20:27:18 GMT -6
I remember reading someplace (and I believe it was an interview with either Gary or Dave, so not only do we have my fallible memory to contend with, but we also have theirs...) that some of the players (in whichever game) were heavily into the "Kung Fu" TV series and that's where the monk came from. But I could accept The Destroyer, as well.
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Post by snorri on Oct 2, 2009 4:36:07 GMT -6
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Post by Mr. Darke on Oct 2, 2009 14:25:29 GMT -6
I hate to be a wet blanket but, do you really think Wiki is a good enough place to consider a source?
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 2, 2009 14:35:08 GMT -6
I hate to be a wet blanket but, do you really think Wiki is a good enough place to consider a source? In general, no. In this case there was a direct quotation from an AD&D book, and I would think that this would be a bit more trustworthy. |
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Post by coffee on Oct 2, 2009 14:48:16 GMT -6
I hate to be a wet blanket but, do you really think Wiki is a good enough place to consider a source? We don't go to Wikipedia for the information; we go for the list of the sources they used. Sometimes you find something useful. And lately they've been more insistent on having documented and/or authenticated facts. |
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Post by Mr. Darke on Oct 2, 2009 14:56:43 GMT -6
Gotcha, I do the same thing but I wanted to make sure. *sigh* I have spent the past three weeks having the non-source status of Wikipedia drilled into me. I think the indoctrination is taking.  |
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Post by coffee on Oct 2, 2009 15:13:50 GMT -6
Oh, it's fine for gossip. But not scholarship, except as I've noted to look up the footnotes.
Actually, there are some books out there about which I could say the same thing -- that was the one that tripped me up. ("If it's in print it has to be true, right?")
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Post by aldarron on Oct 18, 2009 9:42:09 GMT -6
Tim Kask kindly provided some more details about the origin of the Monk, Assasin and Paladin classes on his Q&A on Dragonsfoot. www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23223&start=2010 It turns out that the answer isn't quite clearcut for the Monk, but it appears to be largely if not completely a product of Brian Blume, perhaps inspired by something going on in Blackmoor. Mike Carr might know, and Blume would, I presume. I also asked him about the paladin because Arneson once said it was his favorite character to play and it does appear as a class in FFC, but seemed to come from literature Gygax was fond of. Mr. Kask confirmed that the class arose in Greyhawk and was almost certainly Gygax's idea - so it does illustrate how cross fertile the Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns were. |
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Post by havard on Oct 18, 2009 10:38:38 GMT -6
Tim Kask kindly provided some more details about the origin of the Monk, Assasin and Paladin classes on his Q&A on Dragonsfoot. www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=23223&start=2010 It turns out that the answer isn't quite clearcut for the Monk, but it appears to be largely if not completely a product of Brian Blume, perhaps inspired by something going on in Blackmoor. Mike Carr might know, and Blume would, I presume. I also asked him about the paladin because Arneson once said it was his favorite character to play and it does appear as a class in FFC, but seemed to come from literature Gygax was fond of. Mr. Kask confirmed that the class arose in Greyhawk and was almost certainly Gygax's idea - so it does illustrate how cross fertile the Blackmoor and Greyhawk campaigns were. You might want to note that Kask might not be entirely unbiased when it comes to Arneson. I don't want to be the source of slander, but read the first pages of Kask's thread and you will see what I am talking about. That said, it seems to me like Kask gives Arneson's group more credit for the Monk than I had expected, so hey  Havard |
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Post by aldarron on Oct 18, 2009 19:08:59 GMT -6
True, as a close friend of Gygax and not a friend of Arnesons he has his perspective, naturally, but my sense is that he calls it like he sees it and in this particular case was really trying to get the answer for me. I thought that since he was the editor he would know but apparently he inherited the job from Blume. To some extent I understand why Arneson isn't as respected by some as I think he should be. The thing about Arneson, bless him, was that he really - at least in the 1970's - does not seem to have been particularly skilled at, or pehaps didn't see the need for, organized writing. Reminds me of what a film professor I once had said about himself - that he had a random, creative kind of mind. Even on this website Arnesons posts are full of typos and Daveisms and it is sometimes difficult to know which post or point he was responding to. FFC as everyone points out is a bit of a jumble and AIF - although its a lot better - isn't exactly a stellarly organized and fleshed out piece of work either. I imagine those 18 pages of notes he gave to Gygax that were to form the basis of OD&D - the ones Gygax later called "worthless" - were probably a bit chaotic too. Personally I think Arneson remains a real unsung genius, but I believe his detractors from the early days are/were turned off by his fast and loose style and are/were drawn in by Gygax's disciplined, hyperorganized and voluminous output.
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