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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 22, 2007 21:01:42 GMT -6
The goldenrod Guidon Games 1E (1971) and 2E (1972) versions of Chainmail are actually not as complete as the later silver TSR 3E (1975) version.
Spells in Chainmail were divided into "Complexity Levels" which were eventually changed to "Spell Levels" by OD&D.
Here is a listing of the spells from Chainmail, along with notation as to which spells were added to which edition. Each spell is designated as follows: * = one of the 1E spells from 1971. ** = one of the spells added to 2E in 1972. *** = one of the spells added to 3E by 1975.
General Notes: 1. There are no Cleric spells given. Only Magic-users had an actual list of spells to cast. 2. There are six "Complexity Levels" of spells, which clearly formed the basis of OD&D's six "Spell Levels", and I have gone back to check to see if any spells moved from one level to another between Chainmail and OD&D. 3. Fire Ball and Lightning Bolt were treated like missile attacks and not actual spells from a list. While the total number of spells cast appears to be limited by the level of the Magic-user, I have found no reference as to how many Fire Ball or Lightning Bolt missiles can be cast.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 22, 2007 21:02:48 GMT -6
Complexity Level 1:Darkness * Wizard Light * NOTE: These are variations of the 1st Level Magic-user "Light" spell from Men & Magic.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 22, 2007 21:03:49 GMT -6
Complexity Level 2:Detection * Levitate *** Phantasmal Forces * NOTE: By OD&D, the "Detection" spell has been broken down into "Detect Invisible" and "Detect Evil". Both remain 2nd level.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 22, 2007 21:04:38 GMT -6
Complexity Level 3:Concealment * Haste *** Protection from Evil ** Slowness *** NOTE: I'm not sure where "Concealment" went (unless it became a 2nd level "Invisibilty" spell) but the others remained at 3rd level in OD&D. Also, both "Fireball" and "Lighting Bolt" were placed at this complexity as spells instead of missiles.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 22, 2007 21:05:14 GMT -6
Complexity Level 4:Confusion *** Hallucinatory Terrain *** Polymorph *** NOTE: OD&D breaks "Polymorph" up into "Polymorph Self" and "Polymorph Others". These spells all remain at 4th level.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 22, 2007 21:07:21 GMT -6
Complexity Level 5:Cloudkill *** Conjuration of an Elemental * NOTE: Both spells remain at 5th level in OD&D.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 22, 2007 21:08:16 GMT -6
Complexity Level 6:Anti-Magic Shell *** Moving Terrain ** NOTE: OD&D takes "Moving Terrain" and divides it up into "Move Earth" and "Lower Water" and "Part Water". All of these spells remain at 6th level.
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Post by grodog on Jun 24, 2007 11:27:31 GMT -6
3. Fire Ball and Lightning Bolt were treated like missile attacks and not actual spells from a list. While the total number of spells cast appears to be limited by the level of the Magic-user, I have found no reference as to how many Fire Ball or Lightning Bolt missiles can be cast. When playing at LGGC, there were no limits to the number of times that a spell could be cast per day: you either had the spell or you didn't. So, no Vancian magic system yet. IIRC, Gygax writes about the origins of the Vancian magic in some early issues of SR and/or TD, which may have references back to the Chainmail versions of the spells???
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 25, 2007 7:50:37 GMT -6
When playing at LGGC, there were no limits to the number of times that a spell could be cast per day: you either had the spell or you didn't. That's interesting. I wonder which edition of Chainmail was being played. My 3E Chainmail (silver cover) clearly has rules for mages and the number of total spells they get to cast. (Again, except for Fire Ball and Lightning Bolt which were not classified as "spells" but "missiles".) There is no distinction for how many spells of each level, only a total number of spells. Having never seen 1E or 2E Chainmail (gold cover), perhaps the "no limit" rule was from there. Or, maybe it was a "house rule" for LGGC? Hmmmm.
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Post by foster1941 on Jun 25, 2007 11:25:27 GMT -6
My copy of Chainmail (3E, 1975) at least implies that wizards can cast their missile (either fire ball (catapult) or lightning bolt (cannon) -- not both) every round with no limit. In D&D terms I think this would be expressed as the wizard having an appropriate wand or staff rather than using up spell slots. For the other spells, IIRC the level determines the number of different spells the figure can cast, but that he can cast any spell he "knows" an unlimited number of times (dependent on the Complexity Table, that is -- the higher level the spell (and lower level the caster) the more likely that the spell will be delayed, or fail altogether).
Disclaimer: I've never played Chainmail, not in the 70s, not in the 00s...
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Post by grodog on Jun 26, 2007 18:06:48 GMT -6
We cast darkness, protection from good, flamestrike (or whatever it was called in CM), and counterspell multiple times from our EHP; we had confusion cast on us multiple times, too, although there was a limit on the number of elementals that the druid could summon (one each of fire and earth).
We were playing with 3rd Edition Revised rules, though I don't know what printing.
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Post by tgamemaster1975 on Jul 8, 2007 18:19:12 GMT -6
Thanks for posting this info guys, it is really good stuff.
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Post by grodog on Jul 11, 2007 0:15:16 GMT -6
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Post by tgamemaster1975 on Nov 17, 2007 23:32:34 GMT -6
When playing at LGGC, there were no limits to the number of times that a spell could be cast per day: you either had the spell or you didn't. That's interesting. I wonder which edition of Chainmail was being played. My 3E Chainmail (silver cover) clearly has rules for mages and the number of total spells they get to cast. (Again, except for Fire Ball and Lightning Bolt which were not classified as "spells" but "missiles".) There is no distinction for how many spells of each level, only a total number of spells. Having never seen 1E or 2E Chainmail (gold cover), perhaps the "no limit" rule was from there. Or, maybe it was a "house rule" for LGGC? Hmmmm. Has anybody asked Gary about the limit vs no limit thing?
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Post by Zulgyan on Feb 17, 2008 11:54:24 GMT -6
Moving Terrain ** NOTE: OD&D takes "Moving Terrain" and divides it up into "Move Earth" and "Lower Water" and "Part Water". All of these spells remain at 6th level. I think I'll unify the OD&D spells into "Move Terrain" back again. It would make a more versatile and interesting spell to memorize.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 10:31:12 GMT -6
I was wondering if this quote from the Wizards listing in the Third Edition (pp30-1) is present in the earlier editions as well and if there are any significant changes between editions.
Whatever these abilities or powers are, they are distinct from the list of spells. Yet the D&D spells Invisibility, Infravision, and Protection from Normal Missiles arguably could derive from this passage. I'm interested in using the game/edition of origin of various spells as a proxy for how commonly they are found in the game world and would love to fix these too, in addition to the breakdown of spells you've given above.
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Post by Zenopus on May 7, 2017 10:55:13 GMT -6
I was wondering if this quote from the Wizards listing in the Third Edition (pp30-1) is present in the earlier editions as well and if there are any significant changes between editions. Whatever these abilities or powers are, they are distinct from the list of spells. Yet the D&D spells Invisibility, Infravision, and Protection from Normal Missiles arguably could derive from this passage. I'm interested in using the game/edition of origin of various spells as a proxy for how commonly they are found in the game world and would love to fix these too, in addition to the breakdown of spells you've given above. FWIW, those lines are in the 2nd edition (1972), which is the earliest text that I have access to. I agree that it's possible the later D&D spells were included in D&D so that these Chainmail Wizard powers could be replicated.
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Post by increment on May 7, 2017 14:20:00 GMT -6
FWIW, those lines are in the 2nd edition (1972), which is the earliest text that I have access to. I agree that it's possible the later D&D spells were included in D&D so that these Chainmail Wizard powers could be replicated. That text is also verbatim in 1st edition.
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Post by waysoftheearth on May 8, 2017 5:47:42 GMT -6
Spells in Chainmail were divided into "Complexity Levels" which were eventually changed to "Spell Levels" by OD&D. Mmmm, well... - Spell complexity doesn't appear in CM 2nd Ed (1972).
- The Dalluhn manuscript (presumed 1973?) has spell levels 1 thru 5 for both cleric and M-U spells (no sixth level M-U spells) see here.
- D&D (1974) added spell level 6 for M-Us.
- Spell Complexity was added to CM 3rd Ed (circa Jan 1975).
Also, I understand that CM 1st Ed. only has wizard spells 1 thru 6. I can verify that 2nd Ed. (1972) only has wizard spells 1 thru 8. Therefore, it appears spell complexity and CM spells numbered 9 thru 16 were back-ported from D&D (1974) to CM 3rd Ed (1975), rather than the other way around.
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Post by stormberg on Jun 30, 2017 0:32:21 GMT -6
Howdy, That's interesting. I wonder which edition of Chainmail was being played. My 3E Chainmail (silver cover) clearly has rules for mages and the number of total spells they get to cast. (Again, except for Fire Ball and Lightning Bolt which were not classified as "spells" but "missiles".) There is no distinction for how many spells of each level, only a total number of spells. Having never seen 1E or 2E Chainmail (gold cover), perhaps the "no limit" rule was from there. Or, maybe it was a "house rule" for LGGC? Hmmmm. Has anybody asked Gary about the limit vs no limit thing? Yes. I did prior to playing Chainmail with he and Jeff Perren in 2006. He also clarified that all spells go off simultaneously, during the artillery phase. From 2006, the first from his message board and the other, I think, in private email. It started out as private email but he took it to his message board because nothing was being discussed and then it went back to private. and... Futures Bright, Paul
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Post by stormberg on Jun 30, 2017 0:41:23 GMT -6
Howdy Fin, Complexity Level 4:Confusion *** Hallucinatory Terrain *** Polymorph *** NOTE: OD&D breaks "Polymorph" up into "Polymorph Self" and "Polymorph Others". These spells all remain at 4th level. Saying these spells remain at 4th level of complexity is not entirely correct. There was no spell complexity in the 1st and 2nd editions. By the time the 3rd edition came out D&D and Greyhawk (but perhaps not released) existed in all their glory. Spell complexity and the assignation of complexity levels did not carry forward from Chainmail to D&D but rather were carried from D&D back on to Chainmail in 1975. Futures Bright, Paul
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Post by stormberg on Jun 30, 2017 1:12:12 GMT -6
Spells in Chainmail were divided into "Complexity Levels" which were eventually changed to "Spell Levels" by OD&D. [...]it appears spell complexity and CM spells numbered 9 thru 16 were back-ported from D&D (1974) to CM 3rd Ed (1975), rather than the other way around. Yes, that is correct. Futures Bright, Paul
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 30, 2017 6:12:04 GMT -6
Thanks for the info, Paul. I really need to get ahold of a 1E and 2E Chainmail rules booklet sometime, just to read it for myself. I hadn't known that Spell Complexity was a 3E thing until this thread. It's cool to see how the game evolved. (De-evolved? Re-evolved? Parallel evolved? Whatever....)
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Post by Malchor on Dec 3, 2018 11:22:11 GMT -6
Do we know who (or which group) created Move Earth and Protection from Evil?
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Post by increment on Dec 3, 2018 12:07:52 GMT -6
Do we know who (or which group) created Move Earth and Protection from Evil? One oblique data point about it, anyway, is that the Battle of the Brown Hills (Wargamer's Newsletter #116) shows that the Magician of the Cairn then knows a spell called "Circle of Protection." I've kind of recklessly assumed that was the original title of PFE; more conservatively, we might say that the basic idea was in play in Gygax's games before 2nd ed.
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Post by Malchor on Dec 3, 2018 12:31:13 GMT -6
One oblique data point about it, anyway, is that the Battle of the Brown Hills (Wargamer's Newsletter #116) shows that the Magician of the Cairn then knows a spell called "Circle of Protection." I've kind of recklessly assumed that was the original title of PFE; more conservatively, we might say that the basic idea was in play in Gygax's games before 2nd ed. Maybe. The reference was published Nov 1971, but sadly the spell was not used, so we do not have a description. Circle of Protection sounds more like a Chainmail spell. While Protection from Evil seems out of place, due to the use of “evil” in the name and description. “Evil” is used only in the Dragon description and “General Line-Up.”
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Post by increment on Dec 3, 2018 13:18:18 GMT -6
Circle of Protection sounds more like a Chainmail spell. While Protection from Evil seems out of place, due to the use of “evil” in the name and description. “Evil” is used only in the Dragon description and “General Line-Up.” Well, I'm mostly reckless because the description of PFE in Ch. 2nd says that it casts protection in a circle, and having a circle of protection sounds a lot like Circle of Protection. Agreed the use of "evil" is unusual for the time, but not so glaring that I think it should lead us to look too hard for other explanations.
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Post by Stormcrow on Dec 3, 2018 14:07:07 GMT -6
On the other hand, circles of protection are a common trope in magic and fantasy. There's no telling whether the two spells are related or a case of parallel development.
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Post by Malchor on Dec 3, 2018 14:20:57 GMT -6
Well, I'm mostly reckless because the description of PFE in Ch. 2nd says that it casts protection in a circle, and having a circle of protection sounds a lot like Circle of Protection. Agreed the use of "evil" is unusual for the time, but not so glaring that I think it should lead us to look too hard for other explanations. I see your point, though still odd to have a perfectly descriptive name and change it to something so out of step. Either way, we are mostly in agreement.
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Post by Malchor on Dec 4, 2018 18:35:16 GMT -6
Looking at the spell again, there are two parts to Protection from Evil:
First, the part that might have some relation to "Circle of Protection": Second, something with no relation to a "Circle of Protection": For completeness, the description ends with: Either someone combined expanded on the concept of Circle of Protection or combined a Circle of Protection spell and Protection from Evil spell into one. The lack of "evil" in the first half with an emphasis on enchanted monsters; followed by a clear emphasis on "evil" in the second part indicated the latter is quite possible. The closing seems to try to resolve the combination.
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