OD&D + Greyhawk and AD&D

[geoffrey]

How do you compare these two sets of rules:

OD&D boxed set plus Supplement I: GREYHAWK

and

AD&D Monster Manual
AD&D Players Handbook
AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide

Which of the above two sets of rules do you think more closely reflects the rules used in Gary's home Greyhawk campaign? And why?

I have the impression that Gary's home campaign was closer to OD&D + Greyhawk. Gary would often mention that he didn't use a number of things in AD&D (weapon speed factors, psionics, the DMG's intricate initiative system, etc.).

Consider the Monster Manual: There are some monsters in there that Gary seemed to pretty much ignore in his other published work (e. g., devils). Did Gary include lots of other people's monster ideas, kind of making a smorgasbord of monsters?

Consider the Players Handbook: In addition to the above-mentioned psionics and weapon speed factors, it includes 11 character classes. Yet the "big name" PCs in Gary's campaign (Mordenkainen, Bigby, Rigby, Robilar, etc.) were predominantly fighters, magic-users, and clerics.

Consider the Dungeon Masters Guide: This book, unlike the previous two, feels to me like it slipped out of control. The BtB combat system is anything other than easy, what with all the segments and other factors. Some of the artifacts (such as the Hand and Eye of Vecna) were straight out of Brian Blume's campaign. Gary has mentioned that he didn't use the byzantine unarmed combat system in the DMG. Etc. Is the DMG a product of shoehorning within nearly everything within reach?

Is the original trilogy of hardback AD&D books, at least in large measure, an attempt to turn a little income-generating hobby into a multi-million dollar enterprise? My impression of Supplement I: GREYHAWK was that it was intended by Gary to fix some perceived problems with the 1974 rules, as well as to share a lot of monsters, spells, and magic items straight off of Gary's game table.

Please note that I've used a lot of question marks in this post. I certainly am not bashing AD&D. I'm simply wondering how right (or wrong) I am in my feeling that OD&D + Greyhawk is pretty close to how Gary ran his campaign, while AD&D was more of an attempt by Gary and the Blumes to grow TSR.

[Deleted]

I don't pretend to know the mind of the late, great EGG; but I think you're probably pretty close to the mark. Especially regarding his later, post-TSR years, during which he seemed to be leaning toward simpler gaming rule sets.

There is some talk among fans the Advanced version of the game was an attempt to differentiate it, for legal reasons, from OD&D. I prefer, however, not to speculate further regarding that line of thought.

[benoist]

The impetus behind the publications of OD&D and AD&D were radically different, because of the time frames and the way the hobby evolved in the mean time. Basically, AD&D's publication was much more of a business move with some underlying concerns that influenced its final shape (like unified play and system reference to further a common ground that would allow the business to be viable for the long term) than OD&D's, which was more of an experiment at the time.

In other words, I don't think that AD&D was ever particularly intended to be "Gary's home game", though obviously AD&D's form was greatly influenced by the way Gary's home campaign was run. These in the end were two different things.

[Falconer]

Geoffrey, I think you are more or less right. I played in a game of LA that Gary ran, and though that was neither D&D nor AD&D, it gave me some insight into how he ran his games. He had the LA books handy, but he rarely referenced them except for for the occasional table. He didn’t run the game as written. It was pretty free-form, and he would make a lot of on-the-fly rulings based on what seemed to make sense. Combat actions went clockwise around the table.

The point is, that it seems to me that Gary had an idea of what was fit to publish that differed from how he actually played. There’s nothing sinister in it, but it’s no secret that what he had in mind for AD&D was something very professional, very high-quality, and very thoroughly thought-out to the point that two different DMs running the same tournament module would moderate the effects of each spell and the skills of each monster in the same way.

I am certain that, after the AD&D books were printed, Gary kept those books handy during his games rather than the OD&D ones, and used the AD&D combat tables and experience tables and price lists. I believe he saw these as straight-up improvements and the old numbers as obsolete. Publicly and privately Gary tended to “keep up with the times” in that sense. It was even widely known throughout the 2e era that Gary would use d10 instead of d6 for initiative.

But, here is another way to look at it. Any DM worth his salt knows that his own good sense overrules what any rulebook says. Also, as a (lesser) DM myself, my modest house rules document was constantly, constantly becoming obsolete and in need of revision as my own tastes changed, until I finally scrapped it altogether. Gary Gygax was not only the greatest DM to ever live, he also wrote the rulebooks! The creation is not greater than the creator, so the master surely never felt bound by his own writings.

In summary, yes, I think he used the AD&D books when they were in-print but his style was always closer to OD&D (both before and after the AD&D books were in-print).

Jun 19, 2009 15:04:45 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Consider the Players Handbook: In addition to the above-mentioned psionics and weapon speed factors, it includes 11 character classes. Yet the "big name" PCs in Gary's campaign (Mordenkainen, Bigby, Rigby, Robilar, etc.) were predominantly fighters, magic-users, and clerics.

Well, yeah, the most classic characters as detailed in Dragon #37 and The Rogues Gallery and Mordenkainen’s Fantastic Adventure, including Mordenkainen, Bigby, Robilar, Tenser, Erac’s Cousin, Riggby, Serten, and Yrag, were all of OD&D classes (and the Clerics were both henchmen), but these PCs of Gary, Rob, and Ernie all date back to 1971-1973!

Later you can find examples of other classes—rangers, monks, assassins, druids, illusionists... in fact, the only PC classes that you NEVER hear about in the Greyhawk campaign are Paladins and Thieves (the two classes from Greyhawk)! But, overall, yeah, it seems it was mostly Magic-Users and Fighters, in that order.

[Falconer]

P.S.: Note that Gary uses a different system of currency in the Gord the Rogue novels, with “gold orbs” and “silver nobles” and such, and they have different conversion rates from the conversion rates given in OD&D or in AD&D. What’s interesting about that is that the “gold orbs” and “silver nobles” and such already appear in The Village of Hommlet and The Quest For The Vermillion Volume (TSR #6). So we can also conjecture that he had his own price lists that were different from the published ones. (Interesting to note in Yggsburgh how there are many different stores and each has a different selection of items for sale and different prices. I wonder if it was so in the Original Campaign.)

So we see,

1. Supplements and AD&D as a way for Gary to publish his own home campaign info; but
2. they also include elements NOT used in his campaign; and
3. there are elements of his home campaign which did NOT make it into print.

[grodog]

Jun 20, 2009 3:10:34 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Later you can find examples of other classes—rangers, monks, assassins, druids, illusionists... in fact, the only PC classes that you NEVER hear about in the Greyhawk campaign are Paladins and Thieves (the two classes from Greyhawk)! But, overall, yeah, it seems it was mostly Magic-Users and Fighters, in that order.

Rob has commented that Thieves just weren't that popular in GH (which makes sense, if you think of OD&C PCs being able to defeat/avoid traps through common sense, logical deduction, etc.). Scott Gregg has said that Mark Ratner's "paladin" PC who freed Fraz was in fact a fighter, and not a paladin; I can't recall any other potential paladins being mentioned in Greyhawk, either.

I don't recall any Greyhawk bards running around, although GT has his old PC Woodstock, who was a bard, so perhaps he counts??

[sham]

The Thief aside, what of the poor Cleric? Even in my own countless sessions across numerous campaigns, there are simply NO Clerics. At all.

I think most of us are following the same track that Gary did. We can't resist the temptation that OD&D provides. Fleshing out the rules and making the game "our own". In the end, we all come back to the roots. It's the concept that unites us all, one which is best grasped in its undiluted form.

[Ghul]

Scott Gregg has said that Mark Ratner's "paladin" PC who freed Fraz was in fact a fighter, and not a paladin; I can't recall any other potential paladins being mentioned in Greyhawk, either.

I don't recall any Greyhawk bards running around, although GT has his old PC Woodstock, who was a bard, so perhaps he counts??

I conducted a series of interviews with Mark Ratner prior to and during my development of Castle Zagyg. The purpose of the interviews was to acclimate myself to the players' perspective of Greyhawk in the 70's. I already had tons of material from Gary, and I was looking for alternative viewpoints. Gary thought it was a fine idea and encouraged me to go forward with it. So my interview subjects included Mark Ratner, Ernie Gygax, and Jim Ward.

Mark told me some fine tales of Ayelarach who, yes, was a fighter. He told me that he was not his first character in Greyhawk, but that Rolf, a magic user, was. Rolf got turned to stone and placed in the fountain garden of the striped mage while Rob was DMing, so Mark went on to create the fighter, Ayelarach. He says he got quite powerful and had a small fief about a two day ride south of Greyhawk City. He got the character up to 10th level before Mark moved away from Lake Geneva. He also told me a story about how Rob's brother (Terry, I presume) had a monk (the same monk who painted the striped mage's tower like a barber pole) who had a vendetta against Ayelarach that was never resolved. Mark says Ayelarach yet lives.

[scogle]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that AD&D was motivated purely by greed. After all, it is largely Gary Gygax's own work, even if he ended up preferring a simpler system (seems like AD&D with weird rules ignored, which is similar to OD&D + Greyhawk). The traditional explanation is that they wanted a standard book for tournaments and modules and such, and certainly millions of players enjoyed AD&D thoroughly. Different strokes for different folks, and AD&D even with the DM Guide stuff isn't really much different from OD&D + all sups