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Post by doc on Jun 5, 2009 15:24:27 GMT -6
For as far back as I have been reading fantasy, I've always associated the concept of the sorcerer (read: magic-user) with Elric. You know, the evil elf with the big black sword.
Elric was supposed to have been the greatest sorcerer of his age. His magic consisted primarily of calling out to the gods of his people for magical favors and support.
Huh? Doesn't that sound like the D&D cleric?
What do you all think he would translate into for OD&D? Magic user or cleric? (putting aside the Carcosa sorcerer for a minute)
Doc
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Post by calithena on Jun 5, 2009 15:30:22 GMT -6
He's a fighter/magic-user elf, pretty much by Moorcock's own admission now.
I guess that's a flip answer though. Your real question is based on how his magic works. Not sure...
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Post by kenmeister on Jun 5, 2009 16:39:03 GMT -6
Yup, I thought cleric when I read the series too. Works even better as a 3E cleric where clerics have more summoning spells.
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 5, 2009 22:34:10 GMT -6
Elric was supposed to have been the greatest sorcerer of his age. His magic consisted primarily of calling out to the gods of his people for magical favors and support. Huh? Doesn't that sound like the D&D cleric? Well, when you describe it as "calling out to the gods" it certainly does seem very cleric-like. In general, I think that Elric uses a few standard types of "magic": 1. Summoning supernatural beings like elementals. Maybe cleric-like, but perhaps simply a magic-user doing summoning spells. 2. Making "deals" or pacts with supernatural beings. Many of these are simply a matter of him reminding the being that years ago one of Elric's ancestors did the being a favor and, hey, don't you owe me one? I'm not sure that Elric's magic really fits the memorize-and-forget style of OD&D magic, but I'm not sure I'd call him a cleric either because he doesn't really worship a single deity or pantheon of deities. Elric just doesn't follow the rules!  |
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Post by vladtolenkov on Jun 6, 2009 0:27:42 GMT -6
Elric's initial summoning of his patron Arioch is accomplished by a long and difficult ritual. Once that relationship is established Elric occaisionally calls on Arioch for aid--but it must be noted that Arioch leaves him in the lurch about half the time (or more).
None of the above exactly suggests a D&D style Cleric, but I suppose if somebody chooses to worship a capricious and evil chaos deity they might not be terrible reliable, so you could play it that way. Need a heal? Sorry you're screwed cause Arioch's decided to ignore you today just for kicks.
Elric also invokes aid for all sorts of other mystical entities as well due to pacts established by his ancestors around the Ring of Kings or perhaps because they feel neglected by humanity (I'm thinking here particularly of Straasha and Grome).
My sense is that the Melniboneans did not so much as "worship" these entities as they made bargains with them in order to increase their own power and authority.
Cleric? Magic-User? Well the real answer is that its a bit of both. Moorcock was drawing a bit on real world occultism when he created the magic of Elric's world, and in those sorts of traditions magicians deal with "gods" all the time. So those D&D style distinctions get pretty messy.
BTW in terms of classes the AD&D Deities and Demigods lists Elrics classes and levels as:
10th level cleric/5th level druid
15th level fighter
19th level magic-user/10th level illusionist
10th level assassin
Actually the older editions of Chaosium's Stormbringer RPG allowed characters to build up Elan--which was a point system that measured your general favor with your patron. You gained and lost Elan depending on the behaviors which your patron god favored. It occurs to me this system could easily be ported right into OD&D.
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Post by bdfiscus on Jun 6, 2009 4:53:00 GMT -6
How about a multiclassed Ftr/Warlock ? encompasses a lot of the "pacts and summoning" aspects of Elric, anyway.
I was always fond of using Half-Elf Ftr/MU/Clerics to simulate foes or characters resembling melniboneans in my games.... especially since melniboneans apparently arent nearly as long lived as dnd elves (or Eldren/Vadhagh, etc..)
Just give them some unique magic items to boost Cleric/Magic User abilities if you need to...
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 6, 2009 5:35:55 GMT -6
Vladtolenkov, for bringing AD&D into the discussion I hereby SMITE you and ... uh ... oh, that function is gone now. Never mind.  BTW in terms of classes the AD&D Deities and Demigods lists Elrics classes and levels as: 10th level cleric/5th level druid 15th level fighter 19th level magic-user/10th level illusionist 10th level assassin It occurs to me this system could easily be ported right into OD&D. Say ... wasn't that done already? If you consult Supplement IV: Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes (page 52) you'll find how OD&D rated Elric! 19th level magic-user 10th level fighter Strength 9, Intelligence 18, Wisdom 17, Constitution 8, Dexterity 17, Charisma 18. They also stat out the Ring of Kings and Stormbringer to give Elric that extra pop... |
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 6, 2009 9:32:53 GMT -6
In issue #20 of The Dragon is a great article (mentioned favorably by Gary in one of the appendices of the DMG) about how magic-users can gain powerful demons and devils as patrons. It's reasonably similar to the tie between Elric and Arioch.
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Post by kenmeister on Jun 6, 2009 14:12:42 GMT -6
There's a scene in one of the books where Elric is tied down and a big monster is going to come feast on him. He appeals to Arioch for aid, and a bolt of lightning comes out of the sky and slays the monster. I remember thinking that this was just like a use of the flame strike spell, only with lightning instead.
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Post by vladtolenkov on Jun 7, 2009 16:27:49 GMT -6
Fin--that's the only OD&D supplement I don't have (and thanks to WOTC looks like I won't be getting a PDF anytime soon). I didn't even realize that Elric was included!
The AD&D stats do seem a bit overpowered though (like most of the stuff in Deities & Demigods).
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Post by thegreyelf on Jun 11, 2009 5:59:52 GMT -6
It's not overpowered if you consider the following:
1. D&DG is mostly GODS. They're SUPPOSED to be all-powerful. But that comes down to how you feel about gods in D&D. See my recent blog post over at The Wasted Lands for my thoughts on that. Also: it clearly doesn't apply to Elric, who isn't a god, but a mythic hero.
2. It's for AD&D, not OD&D.
It's just a different power assumption in AD&D than OD&D. Remember Gygax's mantra that AD&D was a completely different game from OD&D, not an evolution (though naturally they share many of the same elements). By the time D&DG was written, Elric was an epic hero (or anti-hero, as you like it).
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Post by Red Baron on Dec 26, 2013 21:47:41 GMT -6
Fin--that's the only OD&D supplement I don't have (and thanks to WOTC looks like I won't be getting a PDF anytime soon). I didn't even realize that Elric was included! The AD&D stats do seem a bit overpowered though (like most of the stuff in Deities & Demigods). And that's before he takes drugs to boost his strength and constitution. |
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machpants
Level 5 Thaumaturgist
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Post by machpants on Dec 26, 2013 22:40:18 GMT -6
Does it list his alignment?
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