Will withstand adversity

[snorri]

I tried once again to understand this strange little quote "Will withstand adversity", and it's seems clearer if we remove the famous 'alternative fighting system':

Constitution is a combination of health and endurance. It will influence such things as the number of hits which can be taken and how well the character can withstand being paralyzed, turned to stone, etc." (M&M p. 10)

It seems obvious, with the idea of "being paralyzed, turned to stone", that constitution is directly linked to what become saving throwns in the alternative system. This link directly to the C&C method of abilities check instead of saves, or even to 3+ Fortitude save based on constitution.

Then :

Constitution 15 or more: Add +1 to each hit die
Constitution 13 or 14: Will withstand adversity
Constitution of 9 - 12: 60% to 90% chance of surviving
Constitution 8 or 7: 40% to 50% chance of survival
Constitution 6 or Less: Minus 1 from each hit die*

It's not very clear how the % should be appreciated (the curve isn't flat), neither the relationship with Hit points, but it seems this gives exaclty the saving thrown, ie. a 13+ constitution's character won't turn to stone or be paralysed - and that's just automatic. Spells functions in the same way with dexterity, but no scores are proposed. I guess some clues are to be found in Dave's FFC descritpion of fighting system, but it should be verified.

As with the turn from d6 to d20 in fighting, the introduction of alternative system results in less powerful characters .

[Finarvyn]

Jun 5, 2009 17:59:33 GMT -6 snorri said:

Constitution 15 or more: Add +1 to each hit die
Constitution 13 or 14: Will withstand adversity
Constitution of 9 - 12: 60% to 90% chance of surviving
Constitution 8 or 7: 40% to 50% chance of survival
Constitution 6 or Less: Minus 1 from each hit die*

It's not very clear how the % should be appreciated (the curve isn't flat)...

Actually, it is a simple pattern when you look for it. It's that range given that seems mysterious, because you expect to have a single number assigned to a single stat but instead get this "60% to 90% chance" thing...

12 = 90%
11 = 80%
10 = 70%
9 = 60%

The same thing extends to the next lower rung:

8 = 50%
7 = 40%

We could even take it farther, even though it's not specifically listed as such in the chart:

6 = 30%
5 = 20%
4 = 10%
3 = 0%

So it actually makes pretty good sense to me. Unless somehow I'm missing your main point?

[snorri]

Your pattern is fine and makes sense. The main point is that, if we discard the 5-saving thrown table as part of the "alternative system' (as their position in the book suggests), this pattern is another one for saving thrown, at least against paralysis and turn to stone. It means clearly a 13+ constitution character can't be paralysed or turn to stone, btb - something unexpected if we got in mind the alternative and then the ad&d frame (where this system remains ony for system schok and raise dead).

As the Dexterity descripton suggests it could help to escape spells, it could easily be extrapoled, usig the same pattern with dex.

[scogle]

Jun 5, 2009 17:59:33 GMT -6 snorri said:

I tried once again to understand this strange little quote "Will withstand adversity", and it's seems clearer if we remove the famous 'alternative fighting system':

Constitution is a combination of health and endurance. It will influence such things as the number of hits which can be taken and how well the character can withstand being paralyzed, turned to stone, etc." (M&M p. 10)

It seems obvious, with the idea of "being paralyzed, turned to stone", that constitution is directly linked to what become saving throwns in the alternative system. This link directly to the C&C method of abilities check instead of saves, or even to 3+ Fortitude save based on constitution.

Then :

Constitution 15 or more: Add +1 to each hit die
Constitution 13 or 14: Will withstand adversity
Constitution of 9 - 12: 60% to 90% chance of surviving
Constitution 8 or 7: 40% to 50% chance of survival
Constitution 6 or Less: Minus 1 from each hit die*

It's not very clear how the % should be appreciated (the curve isn't flat), neither the relationship with Hit points, but it seems this gives exaclty the saving thrown, ie. a 13+ constitution's character won't turn to stone or be paralysed - and that's just automatic. Spells functions in the same way with dexterity, but no scores are proposed. I guess some clues are to be found in Dave's FFC descritpion of fighting system, but it should be verified.

As with the turn from d6 to d20 in fighting, the introduction of alternative system results in less powerful characters .

My understanding has always been that the Saving Throw-tables check whether you're affected by something while Constitution checks see whether you survive. This is made more explicit in Sup. I iirc. For example, failing your check against a Medusa's stone-gaze will cause you to turn to stone, and then if you fail your constitution check you'll die on top of it. I also use it in general survival situations, stuff like illnesses or harsh weather, using the base values as a jumping-off point. For example, I remember one time some players caught a stomach virus from spending too long in the sewers, and I decided that only characters with a Con < 9 had to make a check and they only had a 5% chance of dying.

[philotomy]

It seems obvious, with the idea of "being paralyzed, turned to stone", that constitution is directly linked to what become saving throwns in the alternative system. This link directly to the C&C method of abilities check instead of saves, or even to 3+ Fortitude save based on constitution.

I don't think so. I think saving throws were added to the system to give a class-based approach to a "last chance" situation. I dislike linking saving throws to abilities. I prefer to have two separate approaches. Saving throws, which are class/level based (where stats have minimal or no influence) and stat checks as a separate subsystem (where class and level have minimal or no influence). I like the saving throw subsystem to reinforce D&D's class-based approach.

My understanding has always been that the Saving Throw-tables check whether you're affected by something while Constitution checks see whether you survive. This is made more explicit in Sup. I iirc. For example, failing your check against a Medusa's stone-gaze will cause you to turn to stone, and then if you fail your constitution check you'll die on top of it.

That's my understanding as well. (Han Solo made his "system shock" check when he was frozen in carbonite and "survived the freezing process.")