Gold Standard

[coffee]

I try to read everything on this forum, especially the links. This one I found amusing:

deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2007/03/random-likesdislikes-in-od.html

Go down to the beginning of the Dislikes part and you have a discussion about the Gold Standard and how the game doesn't use actual medieval prices for things. I've seen this sort of thing in a few places; this is just the one I most recently read.

Now, I respect and appreciate the point of view the author put forth here, but I also feel compelled to point out that in the medieval world, here on Earth, we hadn't had generations of Dwarves mining gold and gems out of the ground. This, I think, would account for gold being both more common and less valuable than it was historically here on our non-fantasy Earth.

Comments, criticisms, bad puns? Anybody?

[philotomy]

I've never really liked the D&D approach to gold, but not because of a lack of realism. Rather, I dislike it because it's so arbitrary that find it very hard to estimate or come up with prices on the fly.

I really like the monetary standard EGG uses in Lejendary Adventure (and presented in modified form in his "Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds" books).

[coffee]

philotomy said:

I've never really liked the D&D approach to gold, but not because of a lack of realism. Rather, I dislike it because it's so arbitrary that find it very hard to estimate or come up with prices on the fly.

I really like the monetary standard EGG uses in Lejendary Adventure (and presented in modified form in his "Gygaxian Fantasy Worlds" books).

I've always found the arbitrariness to be useful, because you can charge whatever you want for something and since it is arbitrary, nobody can say that it's wrong.

But I do also like the LA/GFW system. If I ever run LA, that's what I'll use.

[foster1941]

Is the LA/GFW system more-or-less the same BUCs (Basic Unit of Currency) system as seen in Mythus, where items are priced in BUCs equivalent to their cost in present day $ and an exchange-rate table of what all the metals are worth in BUCs? Despite its supposed user-friendliness I always found that system to be more of a hassle than D&D's gold/silver standard (especially 10+ years later, when the $ (and thus the BUC) isn't worth what it used to be). I can see estimating prices being somewhat of an issue with the latter, but the price-lists in the rulebooks (dungeoneering equipment, weapons and armor, livestock and transportation in Vol. I, costruction costs and experts' wages in Vol. III) are extensive enough that I always found it easy enough to make comparison-based estimations.

[philotomy]

I don't have Mythus, so I can't comment on exactly how the LA/GFW system compares, but it sounds similar.

Basically, you have a standard unit of currency which is called a dollar (although in your game you can call it whatever you like, of course), and you have a standard rate of exchange based on precious metals. For example, an ounce of gold is $500, an ounce of silver is $10, and an ounce of copper is $1.

Using that framework, a simple breakfast might cost $5, an average breakfast $10, and a fancy breakfast $25 dollars. A room for the night might cost $25 for an 'economy' place, $50 for an average place, and $125+ for fancier lodging. Assuming 1 ounce (or 0.5 ounce) coins, this makes it really easy to come up with prices on-the-fly, IMO.

I'm not saying that coming up with prices using the default D&D scheme is hard, but I usually find the LA system to be more intuitive. I don't have to consult the price tables (to look things up or for comparison-based estimates) as often. YMMV, of course.

[coffee]

And that's what is important: Use what works for YOU. It's your game.

Me, I just have always used the gold standard of old D&D and never cared whether it was realistic or historical or not. Because it works for me.

[foster1941]

Yeah, sounds like the same system minus the (frankly, rather silly) "BUC" acronym. My problem with the system was remembering what in-game coins are worth in BUCs -- sure it's easy to determine that a meal costs $25 and a room $75, but what is that in copper/bronze/silver/gold coins? Having to do that conversion (at least for me) erases the convenience of the BUC standard. Perhaps if I used it more I'd get more comfortable with it, but after 20+ years the D&D 50 (or 100 or 200) CP = 10 (or 20) SP = 2 (or 1/2) EP = 1 GP = 1/5 PP standard is so ingrained in my mind that it's hard to displace it.

[philotomy]

Yeah, the hardest part in getting used to the LA system is the increased value of gold (relatively speaking). Copper and silver are easy, with 1CP = $1 and 1SP = $10. But 1GP = $500 is a big jump. It does make copper and silver the most commonly used coins (and copper isn't a throwaway treasure).

In D&D, you'd also need to consider the impact it has on XP for gold, and on treasure in published modules and supplements.

[jdrakeh]

coffee said:

. . . but I also feel compelled to point out that in the medieval world, here on Earth, we hadn't had generations of Dwarves mining gold and gems out of the ground.

In fairness, nowhere, in any edition of D&D, is the world's population of dwarves portrayed as being generous enough with their wealth to fund a global economy. If anything, it's quite the opposite -- the dwarves of D&D are typically portrayed like those of the Nibelungenlied (i.e., extremely possessive of their material wealth, to the point of waging war to retain it).

That said, you're trying to use logic to explain a fantasy culture. Logic doesn't apply. This is D&D. Dwarves are a race, people hunt monsters for a living, and gold is commonplace. D&D isn't realistic, nor was it ever intended to be. Really, that's all there is to and anybody attempting to justify (or demonize) the global economy of default D&D using real-world logic is kind of missing the point.

D&D is fantasy. That's all the further justification one needs to explain the gold piece standard.

[Finarvyn]

I like to keep my money decimal-based.

My standard is usually the copper, which I equate in my head to be around $1.
Silvers would be $10.
Gold would be $100.
Sometimes I use iron coins at $0.1, if I want things less than $1.

So, I ask myself: what would an object cost in today's prices? A fast-food meal might run about $5 or $6, so I might charge 5 CP for it. A cheap hotel might be $50-$100, so I can charge 5 SP to 1 GP for it.

So, a common person on the street might have $20 in his pocket, or 20 CP in his pouch. This gets rid of some of the mugging issue, because common folk usually don't run around with hundreds of dollars in their pockets so GP are rare.

[coffee]

jdrakeh said:

coffee said:

. . . but I also feel compelled to point out that in the medieval world, here on Earth, we hadn't had generations of Dwarves mining gold and gems out of the ground.

In fairness, nowhere, in any edition of D&D, is the world's population of dwarves portrayed as being generous enough with their wealth to fund a global economy. If anything, it's quite the opposite -- the dwarves of D&D are typically portrayed like those of the Nibelungenlied (i.e., extremely possessive of their material wealth, to the point of waging war to retain it).

That said, you're trying to use logic to explain a fantasy culture. Logic doesn't apply. This is D&D. Dwarves are a race, people hunt monsters for a living, and gold is commonplace. D&D isn't realistic, nor was it ever intended to be. Really, that's all there is to and anybody attempting to justify (or demonize) the global economy of default D&D using real-world logic is kind of missing the point.

D&D is fantasy. That's all the further justification one needs to explain the gold piece standard.

And why shouldn't logic apply? If you take logic out of the equation, you get silliness.

What I'm doing here is using the internal logic of a fantasy world to counteract people using the historical logic of our historical world to explain a fantasy world.

And I never said that the dwarves were generous. But they are not really a self-contained culture -- you never hear about a dwarf farmer. So they might have things they need (like vegetables, or hops for their breweries), which would cause trade to occur. What do they trade with? What they have -- gold and gems.

And anyway, this is just my response to what I read. The real point here isn't whether there is the "one true coinage standard for all games everywhere." The real point, and the truly great thing about this forum, is that it actually makes me think.

I've done more actual thinking about D&D since I joined this forum than I have (probably) done in the last five years or so. And I love it!

And THAT, my friends, IS old school. No matter what monetary system you choose to use in your world, or why.

[jdrakeh]

coffee said:

And why shouldn't logic apply?

I guess I should clarify. Logic may apply. Attempting to rationalize fantasy commerce is not logical.

And I never said that the dwarves were generous.

You implied they were the sole reason that gold was devalued, which presumes that they've flooded the global market with gold (otherwise it wouldn't be devalued).

While it's true that you don't see many dwarven farmers in D&D as written, you also don't see dwarves acting as the sole (or even primary) distributors of wealth in any of the D&D settings.

Again, D&D dwarves have traditionally been portrayed as rather greedy and tight-fisted, not loose with their money (again, something that they would have to be in order for your theory to make sense).

[Finarvyn]

coffee said:

I've done more actual thinking about D&D since I joined this forum than I have (probably) done in the last five years or so. And I love it!

Very well said. That's what we're all about here! ;D

[dwayanu]

Some years ago, I compared economic factors in EPT and S&G. IIRC, I found notable differences for example in the cost of labor (both slave and free) and came up with a rationale concerning the war with Yan Kor. That sort of thing can be fun and add flavor to the campaign -- if it's your cup of tea.

For the sake of convenience in play, I've long been accustomed in D&D to use 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp. I'll probably even go that route whenever I get around to DMing AD&D.

I once worked up fairly "realistic" coinage based mainly on ancient Rome's. I went into composition (including inflationary debasement), dimensions and weights. Then I decided it was too much of a bother to use in play.

One thing I found about ancient coins is that one would get a lot more of them (and more value) per pound than in D&D. That would interfere with the game premise that transportation of treasure ought to be part of the challenge.

IIRC, minting of gold coins largely went into hiatus during the medieval period. My impression is that the metal itself became scarcer and thus more valuable.

As has been pointed out apropos of so many other topics, D&D is a game of fantasy. I find it most convenient to apply laws of economics, ecology, etc., in response to events in the course of the campaign -- as opposed to cleaving strictly to real-world models in the initial setup.

If the supply of monsters and/or treasure in an area is greatly altered, it is usually due to players' actions. I consider it of utmost importance that players' choices should have consequences that become more predictable with experience.

[coffee]

Actually, I can think of a few ways gold would be 'devalued' without the dwarves being generous.

They mine it and mint it. But they have enemies. A large band of orcs raids a dwarf mine, killing who they can and making off with all the gold they can carry. (Which could account for the wagonloads of gold they have in Volume 2, when not found in their lair).

Dragons love gold, so they kill or run off the dwarves to get the gold. Then they sleep on it until a hero comes along and slays them.

"Arms race". Humans see that the dwarves have a lot of gold, so they put a lot of effort into mining it themselves. (Actually, in a siege section of the rules (although that may be AD&D) it is mentioned that Orcs dig almost as fast as dwarves do, with humans coming in third. So maybe the orcs mine gold as well, and then humans take it from them. Another reason for the wagonloads of the stuff.)

Or, it could just be more plentiful than it is here on the real Earth.


Let's get back on track here.

The point I was originally trying to make was that you can't just take real world medieval economics and attempt to graft it onto a fantasy world. You have to take account of the fantasy elements. When it came to gold, dwarves were the first things that popped into my head, so I used them as my example. Not the best example, as your comments have helped me figure out (and for that, I thank you). But an example nonetheless.

It was something I hadn't seen discussed yet on this already wide-ranging forum, so I wanted to start a discussion. And I have done, so I'm happy now.

[Finarvyn]

dwayanu said:

For the sake of convenience in play, I've long been accustomed in D&D to use 1 gp = 10 sp = 100 cp. I'll probably even go that route whenever I get around to DMing AD&D.

I once worked up fairly "realistic" coinage based mainly on ancient Rome's. I went into composition (including inflationary debasement), dimensions and weights. Then I decided it was too much of a bother to use in play.

Good call! I think that the whole OD&D philosophy is about running a smooth game without all of the nit-picky details, and realism often disrupts that goal. I also tried a real-world style economic system once and hated it. One annoyance is that many historical coins are based on non-decimal systems, which makes keeping track of them inconvenient. (Eight of coin A to equal coin B ... 20 of coin B to equal coin C ... argh!) Who needs it!

[coffee]

Although I have used gold/silver/copper values in the same ratios as pounds/shillings/pence. I could think with it, but it drove the players nuts!

[makofan]

I'm going to use the 5 cp = 1sp, 10 sp = 1 gp from the books, but I really haven't thought much about whether prices make sense. The main goal is to have the player's money always slightly short of what they desire

[coffee]

makofan said:

I'm going to use the 5 cp = 1sp, 10 sp = 1 gp from the books, but I really haven't thought much about whether prices make sense. The main goal is to have the player's money always slightly short of what they desire

Good point!

Thanks for tying it all back to the game. That is, after all, what we're here to discuss.

[Deleted]

I use a very simple system comprised of jade. The standard unit of currency in all the human kingdoms is the Jade Noble (yeah, I ripped it long ago form the "World of Lone Wolf" books). Generally speaking, 1 Jade Noble=1 Gold Thane. I still use silver & copper, but all the pricing is rounded to the nearest whole amount--starting at 1 Jade Noble/Gold Thane. Due to gold holding the greatest value to both Dwarves & Gnomes, the price of goods will flux depending on where you go in the world. That's just my method.

[calithena]

Most of the games I have run for D&D have been on the silver standard. I still have given one xp per gp in most of these games, which means experience for treasure is cut. I'm doing gold standard in my forum game though, and I have no idea what I'll do for my next TT game 'til I run it!

[thorswulf]

I have struggled with the whole gold standard thing for years. The decimal system works for convenience, and besides how many staters are in an obol any how? Seriously though, the money thing seems like another throwback to the early days of OD&D when it was evolving out of Chainmail. The First Fantasy Campaign booklet seems to suggest this with the campaign price lists for troops and supplies, etc.... So I leave it as it is these days, or have a greater silver coin equal toa gold piece for a silver standard.

[badger2305]

Oldgeezer's OD&D campaign was set in Medieval England, reign of Edward III, if I recall correctly.

So we all learned the pre-decimalisation English monetary system.

1 pound (livre) was worth 20 shillings, and each shilling was worth 12 pence. Twenty-one shillings to the guinea, and I think five shillings to a crown.

We usually dragged out enough money from the dungeon to keep us in acceptable armor. It was fun, though not the strangest monetary system I could recall.

[robertsconley]

Realism aside, I found game benefits from using a silver standard.

One main coin -the silver penny
one really valuable coin for rewards - the gold crown.
A weight based system for generating different types of currencies easy. If you want to have that complexity.

The system I use is the following

silver to gold ratio is 20 to 1
all prices are stated in silver
90% of coinage is silver penny.
coins are minted in using 1 pound (very rare), 1 ounce (rare), or 1 dram (1/256 of a lb, 1/16 of a oz).

1 silver penny = 1/240 of a pound.
1 gold penny = 1/240 of a pound = 20 silver pennies
1 gold crown = 1/oz = 320 silver pennies

Other coin types that I don't normally use are


1 copper farthing = 1/4 of a silver penny = 1/256 of a pound
note the farthing is the term for breaking a silver penny into quarters. Many coins are pre-scored at the mint to make this easy.

1 silver mark = 1 pound = 240 silver pennies
1 gold pound = 1 pound = 4800 silver pennies
1 silver guilder/shilling = 1 /20 of a pound = 12 silver pennies

Electrum is half gold and half silver so would be 10 to 1 instead of 20 to 1

[Finarvyn]

The best thing about a "silver standard" is the fact that gold tends to be more special. I know that I could use platinum or other rare metals, but somehow the idea of gold sounds better.

By using a gold standard, one finds that gold becomes commonplace and boring. And at the same time, silver and copper coins become almost worthless. "Why bother to haul out those chests of coppers? Too bulky, so just leave 'em!"

By using a silver standard, one tends to keep silvers (and probably coppers since they're not too far removed in value). At the same time, one really covets the occasional gold piece when it's found in a treasure!

[robertsconley]

admin said:

By using a silver standard, one tends to keep silvers (and probably coppers since they're not too far removed in value). At the same time, one really covets the occasional gold piece when it's found in a treasure!

I agree wholeheartedly. This is indeed a benefit of going to a silver standard that I witnessed in my own games.

Rob Conley

[makofan]

I often use a silver standard, although I am not in my current online game. I use silver in my City State/Wilderlands of High Fantasy campaigns - awesome job Rob.

[Deleted]

No doubt. If you're staying with the gold/silver/copper spectrum, a silver standard is definitely the way to go. Great job!

[serendipity]

My games don't actually use gold, silver, or copper as the standard. We use grass. But then, we are playing bunnies.

[thorswulf]

The who question of whether or not to have a gold standard really depends on whether or not you have a fantasy world where anything goes, or a more historical world. Ina game based on the early middle ages and dark ages, gold would only be held by the nobility in coin form, and not very much of it either. Gold was used for objects d'art, religious relics, and to decorate kings. Silver ruled commerce as we all know.

I have wrestled with silver money in a dark ages world setting. Quite frankly either it doesn't exist, or it is in very small quantities for trade in the form of hacksilver, or ingots. I suppose if I were to do a proper dark ages campaign, one would have to roll for a character's social status, and start with a predetermined set of equipment.

For giggles one time, I used Avalon Hill's Runequest tables and figured it would take 10-12 cows to purchase a sword, and something along the lines of 100-125 cattle to own a chainmail byrnie. Accurate as far as history goes, but where does one keep their wealth? Of course owning land is really the end all in sucha campaign but I digress.

I like Leiber's Nehwon currency as an example of a D&D currency.