What makes a game "old school"?

[Finarvyn]

My primary goal in this board was to provide an all-OD&D forum for discussion.

And I already broke my own golden rule.

First, I included a place for Chainmail. This is probably more of a bend than a break, since the OD&D rules mention Chainmail enough that it kind of counts anyway.

Then, I included a place for Warriors of Mars. Why? Because I've never found a forum devoted exclusively to the game and I think it's really neat.

So, at the risk of opening the floodgates to too much background chatter and diluting the original intent of these boards, I have begun to ponder if any other games were worthy enough to have some space in the "other" section.

My original thought would be to only allow TSR games published in the 5.5x8.5" booklet size (half a sheet of 8.5x11" paper). My next thought was to limit everything to 1980 and earlier. I'm also biased by the fact that I hate to include any game that I don't personally own in some form.

Here's a list I generated of possible games to consider:
* Don't Give Up the Ship (1E 1972, 2E 1975)
* Cavaliers & Roundheads (1973)
* Star Probe (1974) and Star Empires (1977)
* Boot Hill (1975)
* Tricolor (1975)
* War of Wizards (1975)
* Swords & Spells (1976)

I don't currently own Tractics or Panzer Warfare, (looking at the stuff listed in the back of the OD&D books), so I tend to eliminate them from my list.

These are "old school TSR" but violate my 5.5x8.5" booklet format:
* Empire of the Petal Throne (1975)
* Classic Warfare (1975)
* Metamorphosis Alpha (1E 1976)
* Lankhmar boardgame (1976)
* Gamma World (1E 1978)
* Divine Right boardgame (1979)
* Top Secret (1980) was right in that "iffy" range.

Other TSR games seemed a bit recent for my taste, including Gangbusters, Marvel Super Heroes, Indiana Jones, Star Frontiers, and so on.

I'd be interested to see if anyone has thoughts on this topic.


EDIT: Moved "War of Wizards" on my list.
EDIT 2: Moved "Tricolor" on my list.

[Deleted]

I dont have most of these games, but I think that if you look at the logos you will get a good measure of age. Look for the "wizard" guy or the "lizard man" and those are OLD SCHOOL!

[serendipity]

Are those old TSR logos you referred to, keltset? Matching them to certain time eras does sound like a good way to weed out the dross, but that limits it to just TSR (or whatever). Weren't there other groups making role playing stuff back then, or was it too new a concept? And where does Judges Guild fit in?

--Sere

[Finarvyn]

serendipity said:

Are those old TSR logos you referred to, keltset? Matching them to certain time eras does sound like a good way to weed out the dross, but that limits it to just TSR (or whatever).

Those are TSR logos, yes.

serendipity said:

Weren't there other groups making role playing stuff back then, or was it too new a concept? And where does Judges Guild fit in?

OD&D was the first rpg, but others followed shortly thereafter. Tunnels & Trolls, Traveller, Rune Quest, and others were non-TSR games put out within a year or so of OD&D.

Judges Guild was the only company other than TSR allowed to make "official D&D" products. I probably should have included a JG section in these boards, since JG is very "old school" as well.

[grodog]

I own most of those games, Finarvyn, but not all (no C&R yet or SP/SE, or 1st edition BH). FWIW, they're all within scope of what I've dubbed the non-D&D TSR stuff that I've been slowly researching (and accumulating, for the items that I didn't already have). It's a definitely a fun period!

I tend to put the cut off for such things through the end of 1979, which does also drop out the long-box editions of Dungeon, AGTFOS, and S'sR, but does include the 1979 BH and earlier editions of Holmes Basic, Dungeon, and Tom Wham's stuff (among many others).

[Finarvyn]

A little personal update: Having passed on a TSR "War of Wizards" on e-bay that hit about $215, I managed to pick up one of the reprint versions for $20. :-)

I moved it on my list on the first post because I now own one and will soon be able to look at it and comment upon it.

[crimhthanthegreat]

admin said:

First, I included a place for Chainmail. This is probably more of a bend than a break, since the OD&D rules mention Chainmail enough that it kind of counts anyway.

Then, I included a place for Warriors of Mars. Why? Because I've never found a forum devoted exclusively to the game and I think it's really neat.


Here's a list I generated of possible games to consider:
* Don't Give Up the Ship (1E 1972, 2E 1975)
* Cavaliers & Roundheads (1973)
* Star Probe (1974) and Star Empires (1977)
* Boot Hill (1975)
* Swords & Spells (1976)

I don't currently own Tractics, Tricolor, Panzer Warfare, or War of Wizards (looking at the stuff listed in the back of the OD&D books), so I tend to eliminate them from my list.

These are "old school TSR" but violate my 5.5x8.5" booklet format:
* Empire of the Petal Throne (1975)
* Classic Warfare (1975)
* Metamorphosis Alpha (1E 1976)
* Lankhmar boardgame (1976)
* Gamma World (1E 1978)
* Divine Right boardgame (1979)
* Top Secret (1980) was right in that "iffy" range.

Other TSR games seemed a bit recent for my taste, including Gangbusters, Marvel Super Heroes, Indiana Jones, Star Frontiers, and so on.

I am fine with you including any or all of these. We played a house ruled Chainmail Fantasy game during the time between Chainmail coming out & OD&D coming out. We used the Barsoom critters in OD&D and worked out our own stats to go with the table. I never did own a copy of Warriors of Mars in the old days, but now have access to the information.

The main thing that I don't see mentioned is Arduin. I know Gary hates the mention of it (and I think I have a good idea of why ). I always found it to be a great source of ideas, I (and my group) have always viewed it as a series of supplements with everything optional.

[Finarvyn]

Actually, I left Arduin off for a couple of reasons, none of which had anything to do with whether or not Gary hates it (which I did not realize anyway).
1. It's not TSR. I didn't mention T&T or RQ for similar reasons.
2. I forgot about it. I have a reprint and it has really tiny font, so I rarely ever look at it.

[crimhthanthegreat]

You have all heard the quote that "Brevity is the soul of wit." I think it is also at the heart of old school. All of the original old school stuff was marked by its brevity. Not much in the way of fluff or longwindness to be found any place in OD&D. When you look for products that are old school in nature, it comes down to is it jampacked with meat or a lot of empty carbs.

[ffilz]

I think EPT would have a place, the original rules are just a mod of OD&D, and the game was pretty old school.

Top Secret with it's first module, which included a "dungeon" does deserve some mention...

As to non-TSR stuff, some of it is well covered other places (such as Judges Guild), though there might be something to be said for a place here. JG and Arduin particularly seem worth having space for.

Frank

[Rengate]

This may stray a bit from the topic, but I like the old 5.5 x 8.5 format so much that I'm thinking of taking my 3E books to kinkos to have them chopped down to that size. Not only will they look cooler, but the amount of extraneous rules that get chopped out will make for a much more enjoyable game!

Did I say that out loud? I am SO fired.

[crimhthanthegreat]

rengate said:

This may stray a bit from the topic, but I like the old 5.5 x 8.5 format so much that I'm thinking of taking my 3E books to kinkos to have them chopped down to that size. Not only will they look cooler, but the amount of extraneous rules that get chopped out will make for a much more enjoyable game!

Did I say that out loud? I am SO fired.

LMAO

[crimhthanthegreat]

ffilz said:

I think EPT would have a place, the original rules are just a mod of OD&D, and the game was pretty old school.

Top Secret with it's first module, which included a "dungeon" does deserve some mention...

As to non-TSR stuff, some of it is well covered other places (such as Judges Guild), though there might be something to be said for a place here. JG and Arduin particularly seem worth having space for.

Frank

I am a bit fond of EPT even though the names are a bit much.

[rogatny]

I have a different answer for what makes an rpg old school and what makes a D&D product old school. In the context of this thread though...

I think Empire of the Petal Throne should be included. It's about as old school as it gets and is basically just an OD&D variant.

Ditto for Metamorphosis Alpha.

It might be nice to have a Judges Guild, Arduin, and other Third Party producers forum.

[coffee]

I just picked up a copy of Top Secret, and I can attest that it does have the little wizard dude for a TSR logo.

Also, it's old school because the whole thing came in one 68 page book and the Administrator (GM) was explicitly encouraged to make up any rules he/she felt were lacking.

In short, it's the DIY nature of a game that makes it "old school" to me.

[Rhuvein]

Hmm, a lot of old great games and old school games for sure.

But what about the supplements for OD&D? Unless I've missed a post somewhere, it would seem to be a good idea to have either separate forums for the supplements or at the very least a combined forum to cover/discuss them.

;D

[Melan]

In my opinion, splitting forums, especially small forums, into several sub-boards is not a very good idea. If any thread of discussion grows so much that it merits a new section, it can be easily created. Maybe a "3rd party OD&D" section may be of use.

[crimhthanthegreat]

rhuvein said:

Hmm, a lot of old great games and old school games for sure.

But what about the supplements for OD&D? Unless I've missed a post somewhere, it would seem to be a good idea to have either separate forums for the supplements or at the very least a combined forum to cover/discuss them.

;D

I believe the intention of Finarvyn is that discussion of things in the supplements go in to the Men & Magic, Monsters & Treasures, The Underworld & Wilderness Adventures and Other Topics forums. Routing basic on the topic.

[crimhthanthegreat]

melan said:

In my opinion, splitting forums, especially small forums, into several sub-boards is not a very good idea. If any thread of discussion grows so much that it merits a new section, it can be easily created. Maybe a "3rd party OD&D" section may be of use.

Perhaps a 3rd party OD&D forum and a non OD&D Old School TSR forum to pickup other TSR games mentioned above. If there is enough traffic for any one game is can still be split out to its own forum later.

[Rhuvein]

Thanks guys. I've only just realized how the Greyhawk and Blackmoor supplements are laid out in the manner of the 3 main rule books. So a question about thieves in the GH supplement would simple be asked in the Men & Magic forum . . D'oh!! ;D

Nevermind.

[Finarvyn]

Rhuvein, you've read my mind exactly. Men & Magic, for example, was not inteneded to be just that one little volume but instead all things about characters and spells.

[Finarvyn]

crimhthanthegreat said:

melan said:

In my opinion, splitting forums, especially small forums, into several sub-boards is not a very good idea. If any thread of discussion grows so much that it merits a new section, it can be easily created. Maybe a "3rd party OD&D" section may be of use.

Perhaps a 3rd party OD&D forum and a non OD&D Old School TSR forum to pickup other TSR games mentioned above. If there is enough traffic for any one game is can still be split out to its own forum later.

What I did was edit the description of the Other Topics section of the boards to include 3rd party product discussion as well as artifacts/deities/etc discussion. That seems to work well since Other Topics was a pretty dead board anyway...

[tgamemaster1975]

Finarvyn, thank you for the description edit.

[thorswulf]

What makes a game "old school"? It was printed on paper and played with people you knew face to face, and not on a computer or video game! It was played with dice, crude character sheets-usually illegally photocopied, lead-not pewter-miniatures, and graph paper!

I'm done ranting now. Meds are kicking in. Time to read some Conan....

[Rhuvein]

thorswulf said:

What makes a game "old school"? It was printed on paper and played with people you knew face to face, and not on a computer or video game! It was played with dice, crude character sheets-usually illegally photocopied, lead-not pewter-miniatures, and graph paper!

Yep and some great fantasy art from:

Sutherland
Tramp
Tom Wham
et. al.

;D

[allensh]

I would definitley be in favor of a Boot Hill discussion area

I do think though that we run the risj of becoming too much like other forums if the scope of the board expands to anything after the introduction of AD&D, so I would say 1979 would be my cut-off date if I were making that decision. There are other places where these other games can be discussed..but its not like I'd quit checking in if they were discussed here.

Allen

[coffee]

I think Boot Hill would definitely fit.

I think the date cut-off could work. But a more fundamental disctinction, for me, is: Does the game come as just a rulebook, or is it a boxed set?

I really love Top Secret, but it was released as a boxed set, with dice and an adventure. That strikes me as second-wave (i.e.; post-old-school).

Anyway, just my $0.02.

[ffilz]

Hmm, if boxed set is post-old school, then OD&D itself doesn't count...unless you use the earliest release...

Frank

[coffee]

ffilz said:

Hmm, if boxed set is post-old school, then OD&D itself doesn't count...unless you use the earliest release...

Frank

Sigh.

I knew somebody would bring that up, yet I hit Post before I mentioned it. My bad.

D&D certainly came in a box, but it didn't include dice or an adventure. What I was trying to get at was that the later 'boxed sets' (or perhaps 'complete boxed sets' would be a better term) were packaged so that you didn't have to buy anything else and could get started right away.

Whereas with old school games, you had to get some dice, create an adventure (or dungeon, or whatever) and only then could you start.

My point was that old school games had a higher DIY factor then the later games did.


(I really gotta stop posting after midnight...)

[crimhthanthegreat]

An exalt for coffee for being on here short of sleep posting after midnight. I remember being short of sleep lots of times over the years because of a marathon gaming session.