Witchcraft in Carcosa

[Deleted]

I'm working on a "Carcosa" adventure module and am looking to expand some of its boundaries. IMO the greatest standout difference between Carcosa and OD&D is the completely different magic system.

I would, in no way, want to introduce Vancian magic into this milieu but I have a thought.

Witchcraft.

There are several presentations of a witch NPC that, with a bit alteration, could fit in with Carcosa very well. Sort of a nature magic sort of thing. Because witches aren't looking to unleash the Elder Ones upon the world, they are often seen as being "of the people" and non-threatening in a way sorcerers are not.

My question for all of you is this: does this sound like a good idea?

Note: I'm not looking for "if it works in your campaign then good for you" types of responses. I'm already aware that my campaign (if I were actually running one, I may be very soon) is mine to do with as I please. What I want to know is if this idea has merit with other fans of this setting.

[Deleted]

Just to expand that thought a little, witches would become the healers and dispensers of various cures and restorative magicks, basically the NPC clerics of the world of Carcosa. Witches with a more malign bent could also be a source of poison and powdered lotus.

I don't really see them as a PC class but, if there is sufficient interest, I guess I could expand the idea to include XP progressions and hit dice and such.

[geoffrey]

Let me quote Gary's words from 1975 and apply them to Carcosa and to myself:

"I will do my utmost to see that there is as little trend towards standardization as possible. Each campaign should be a 'variant', and there is no 'official interpretation' from me or anyone else."

I would proceed very carefully with magics of a sort not in the CARCOSA supplement.

An alchemist-like witch (who doesn't have spells per se, but instead brews poisons, potions, herbs, fungal concoctions, and the like) could work very well indeed.

Another possibility is an adaptation of the "Witchcraft Supplement for Dungeons & Dragons" (by an anonymous author and published in The Dragon #5, and reprinted in The Best of the Dragon. vol. 1). I've always found that article densely packed with cool stuff. It helps that the article (like Supplement V: CARCOSA) is based solely on the 3 LBBs, and not on Supplements I through IV. In any case, a witch along the same general lines as the one in this article could also fit in well in Carcosa.

Witches casting fireballs and lightning bolts (which I know you're not trying to do), however, would blow the feel of Carcosa to smithereens.

To re-emphasize, this is all just my opinion. I am not an authority or arbiter of Carcosa. I merely wrote the book. And I'm looking forward to seeing your adventure module for Carcosa!

[Deleted]

Thanks, Geoff. This is exactly the type of input I was soliciting.

Yes, I had in mind an NPC healer with restorative and supportive type of magics. Subtle stuff that is bestowed by a practitioner who, like LeGuin's Wizards of Earthsea, are always conscious of "balance" and the harmony of nature/Gaia.

Thus, they would have no powerful offensive spells (fireball, lightning bolt, et al.) to unleash -- indeed, no offensive spells of any sort. Except under the most dire of circumstances, the NPC witch ("Earth Mother" is the title I'm leaning toward) would regard her obligation to her "flock" as so pressing as to not even consider accompanying a party of PCs on an adventure or dungeon crawl. She takes her responsibilities to the common folk quite seriously.

I think you'll like my module. When I finish it, you'll get first look and if I can't talk John into sending you a free print copy, I'll buy one and have it shipped to you at my own expense.

[geoffrey]

Mar 14, 2009 12:13:02 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

I think you'll like my module. When I finish it, you'll get first look and if I can't talk John into sending you a free print copy, I'll buy one and have it shipped to you at my own expense.

I'm honored. Thank you very much! ;D

[Deleted]

You're welcome. Of course, I'm proceeding from the assumption I can get BHP to publish the thing! Even though I do layout and blue pencil work for them I still have to pass the same approval process everyone else does. (crosses fingers)

[burke]

I'd rather treat witches as female sorcerers. In Lovecraft's writings witches are evil, benign witches make me think of "wicca" and such thoughts have no place on Carcosa IMHO.

Instead of introducing a Cleric-type to heal injured characters, I've chosen one of the methods outlined in the Ready Ref Sheets. Immediately after combat, the characters can dress their wounds and regain 1-4 hit points, after this they heal one point per full day of rest. I've also had healers (just doctors, no magic) in some villages that the players can purchase services from and heal faster (of course the healer in question might be fraud and do more hurt than good).

I've also used Oracles and Seer-types in my campaign. The village of blue men in hex 8015 keeps a female oracle in a cave in the nearby hills. The cave contains a circle of radioactive rocks that slowly warp her mind and body, enhancing her psionic ability. When the oracle dies the leader of the village selects another young girl with latent psionic ability to become the next oracle.

[Deleted]

You make a good point Burke. Let me see if I can address it in a coherent fashion.

I interpret the environs of Carcosa as "wounded land" and the power of "Mother Nature" is greatly lessened. This primal force, not quite a deity but rather more like the Titans of Greek mythology (not gods but of great power) struggles to bring the land back into balance. So, perhaps using the name "Witch" is an unfortunate choice, due to the literary tradition of this particular genre.

A witch, or whatever name I end up using, would be somewhat like a Druid (but without the offensive spells) and a combination of the NPC classes alchemist, healer, and witch.

This would mean of lot of the healing would be based in medicines (not quite potions?) and herbal remedies; along with a subtle form of magic (is chicken soup curative or palliative?).

I'm thinking such a character would have a repute similar to the hoo-doo women in the backwaters of the southern Louisiana swamps. She would have a devout following among those she cares for, everyone else thinks she's just a crazy old woman.

[Deleted]

I should also add to the previous post, I see this NPC class to be rather more morally ambiguous regarding outsiders. In other words, though she would regard herself as a protector of whatever group among who she lives, she might not feel quite so strongly about PCs seeking succor from her. She would certainly require incentives from them, and may even require them to perform a task for her in payment of her services.

[Deleted]

Bump.

[apeloverage]

You could have 'witches' who are experts on the desert lotus, fungi, the properties of various animals' blood etc.

The limitation could be that the witch has to search for a certain period to find the right ingredients.

The class could also cover doctors and herbalists in more civilised areas (if there are any).

Perhaps they have really good saves vs poison, due to building up an immunity.

[Deleted]

Hey, thanks for the thoughts, Apeloverage.

You seemed to have picked on the general direction I'm going with this. You suggestions fit well with the "subtle" magicks I'm looking to give this NPC class. Carcosa (at least my version of it) isn't about flashy magic. Magic is a wicked, tricksey, false sort of thing; which is why it exacts such a high price from sorcerers. This witch NPC will be in a gray area between science/alchemy/herb-lore and magic. If she were overtly magical, nobody would trust her, but since nobody can point a finger at something she does and state unequivocally that is is indeed magic; everyone pretends it is not.

[geoffrey]

The more I think about it, the more I lean towards witches with NO spell abilities whatsoever. "Casting spells" seems rather off for the world of Carcosa.

Alchemical-type witches, though, could really work. Witches who could only brew, concoct, mix, and that sort of thing. The amount and variety of potions, elixirs, gases, poisons, etc. could be quite extensive. I just barely touched on this sort of thing in my Carcosa module (entitled "Fungoid Gardens of the Bone Sorcerer") in Fight On! #4 with the Black Alchemist.

Witches could be masters of lore regarding the properties of fungus, flora, minerals, and that sort of thing. Look at all the bizarre types of incense, trees, plants, etc. mentioned in the rituals section of Supplement V: CARCOSA. And surely that is only the tip of the iceberg.

Dubeers wrote: 'I interpret the environs of Carcosa as "wounded land" and the power of "Mother Nature" is greatly lessened. This primal force, not quite a deity but rather more like the Titans of Greek mythology (not gods but of great power) struggles to bring the land back into balance.'

A note of caution here: The Old Ones (Shub-Niggurath, Hastur, Yog-Sothoth, Cthulhu, et. al.) are the oldest life forms on Carcosa, and they did not arrive there from outer space. They spontaneously generated. (I lean towards Shub-Nuggurath being the oldest of the Old Ones, with all the rest of the Old Ones being its initial spawn.) Thus, Carcosa is not a planet that was once in balance or in some sort of harmony, and then was wounded. Rather, it was slimy and icky from the very beginning.

Those of lawful alignment on Carcosa don't seek to restore a lost Eden. Rather, they seek to eradicate the Old Ones as the first step towards making Carcosa a much more tolerable place for humans to live. Eradicating all the Cthulhoid elements on Carcosa would be a "twofer". Not only would the Old Ones be gone, but all the sorcerous rituals would be powerless (since there would be no more Cthulhoid entities to conjure, bind, torment, etc.), thus turning all sorcerers into mere fighting-men. Killing two birds with one stone, as it were.

Let me reiterate: I'm offering this advice as one Carcosa referee to another. I am most certainly NOT an authority over other Carcosa referees. All referees are equals in their (to use the Judges Guild phrase I love) "pontifical authority". So Dubeers, please do exactly as YOU desire. My advice is mere advice, and is worth what I charge for it, and can be discarded at will.

[Deleted]

I appreciate your thoughts, Geoffrey. As I stated in the original post, were I writing this solely for my own campaign, I would run with my original concept. My purpose in posting this NPC here is to refine my work into something acceptable to the community at large.

I know I'll never please everyone, such is not my aim. One need only look at the reception Carcosa received from the community at large to realize that.

My aim is provide an alternative palatable to fans of Carcosa. You and Burke have both highlighted certain flaws in my thinking regarding the overall milieu, whereas Apeloverage has suggested some excellent additions.

Anyone else? Or any additional thoughts to those of you who have already contributed?

[Deleted]

Posted separately, for emphasis:

Geoffrey, I get what you are saying about the Elder Ones being the oldest lifeforms on Carcosa. I'm leaning more and more towards making the "witch" into an "alchemist" instead (though she may be referred to as the former by the hoi polloi).

Geoff, or anybody else, do you have any further thoughts about an alchemist healer?

edit to include omitted word

[geoffrey]

Personally, I like the term "witch" for what you're describing.

I also like apeloverage's idea for awesome saving throws vs poison for witches. I toyed with a similar idea in my Carcosa campaign for sorcerers: Since sorcerers study the sorcerous lore of the extinct snake-men, they would also be masters of poisons and be less susceptible to poison. I ultimately decided against giving that to sorcerers, but it (to my mind) is a very appropriate thing for Carcosa.

Not only could witches be adept in poisons (and other concoctions) derived from flora and fungi, but also from fauna. Thus a witch hovel could include in it poisonous snakes, lizards, insects, arachnids, and unearthly horrid things. I'm getting a vibe somewhat similar to the witches in Act IV of Shakespeare's Macbeth. Imagine what things a Carcosan witch could brew from black pudding, green slime, etc!

I also really like your mention of gnarled old Louisiana witches deep in the swamps. That feels about right for Carcosa, and is very far away from the teenage wiccan in a miniskirt.

The magicians in REH's Conan stories seldom (if ever) cast spells. Instead, they usually rely upon concocted weapons: glass vials of sleeping gas, blinding powders, and the like. Your witches have a very old and very appropriate lineage in Howard.

Perhaps, perhaps a witch could even have a bonus for figuring out how to use artifacts of the Primordial Ones, since such artifacts are typically biological in nature.

Witches would be a great way to not only heal lost hit points, but also to get "un-mutated" after an unfortunate mutation.

Lotus powders, incense, bright flowers of the mutated forests, entire weird gardens of flora cultivated by a witch (cf. "Mazirian the Magician" in Jack Vance's The Dying Earth), etc., etc., etc.

Dubeers, you're really onto something here! ;D

[Deleted]

Thanks. I'm feeling "that feeling" in my gut, telling me this is the best way to proceed.

This does not, by any means, indicate I'm unwilling to read anyone's further thoughts on this topic.

[Deleted]

I am in the process of giving everyone who contributed to this brain-storming session an exalt. It will take a bit, since I have to wait an hour (I believe) between exalts. This is a small "thank you" for your help, I know, but I wanted you all to know I appreciated your assistance.

[burke]

Mar 15, 2009 13:33:02 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

I am in the process of giving everyone who contributed to this brain-storming session an exalt. It will take a bit, since I have to wait an hour (I believe) between exalts. This is a small "thank you" for your help, I know, but I wanted you all to know I appreciated your assistance.

Thank you! I look forward to your module. The groove you finally settled in sounds like something I'd like to use in my campaigns as well.

[TheMyth]

I think a wonderful example of the prototype for the Witch-Woman you're trying to create is the character of Nona from the Star Trek episode "A Private Little War."

The hypnotic flower...the blood&root poison cure...the place in the culture...

It's all there for inspiration!

[Deleted]

And I do find it quite inspiring. Thanks for the reminder from a favorite television series of mine!

[aldarron]

Interesting thread. Having a toddler, I've been watching a lot of cartoons and kid shows with witches. So after reading your thread the first time I paid a little more attention to the "classical" witch stereotypes in these shows. I do think a witch needs to have some magic about her - not of the spell casting sort, but rather she should be able to make objects (like wands and crystal balls) and brew potions that capture magical energies or entities or dark powers of some kind (like love potions). She should also be able summon and control some very minor entities to serve as her familiar, usually in the form of the black cat. The "powers" should be light compared to a sorcerers but derive essentially from the same sources - the control of very minor entities, perhaps entities tied to nature and natural things (like pools and fountians, trees and pond scum) and no where near the level of a Sorcerers. All the magic should be of a ritual sort - she can cause curses by burying a bottle with the hair of the victim at a crossroads during a full moon etc. - that sort of thing. These same curse rituals could even be reversible somehow, so that a "good" witch could use them for powerful healing. Brewing potions etc. is a very important part of it I think, but if all she is doing is brewing potions then you are really describing and alchemist or pharmicist, not a witch.

[Deleted]

I initially took a similar tack such as you propose, Aldarron. As I began to actually flesh out Carcosa for use in a local campaign, however, I felt the magical aspects of such an approach just didn't mesh well with the overall concept I've formed of Carcosa.

My challenge then became: how to take a familiar concept and make it work in unconventional ways? The results you have read here.

I considered calling the new NPC an alchemist but didn't feel that label conveyed the same sense of knowledge, lore, and protectiveness that witch did.

I do appreciate your insightful post, Aldarron. I will definitely rethink what I've done so far.

[crusssdaddy]

I like the idea of witches being in the mold of the Dark Elves/Dark Eldar from WFRP and WH40K, although completely de-majicked. They are crazy-ass sexy chicks running around killing people wantonly, and gathering slaves and sacrifices, ordering around their male minions. Baroque weaponry that's all pointy and slicey, barely-there armor that accentuates killer abs and double-D chesticles, and well turned out hair and makeup. They like to ride velociraptors, pteradactyls, and, like... vampire wolves or something. The queens among them are well-versed in the most despicable sorcerous rituals. Basically, they are complete 13-year-old (or, come to think of it, 37-year-old) boner material.

[crusssdaddy]

Oh, and they come in two flavors - Black or White, and they have waged war upon one another for countless millennia...

[blackbarn]

I really like the alchemy idea, and think it would fit Carcosa. Not sure what else I can say, but I am interested in how it turns out.

[Deleted]

Thanks blackburn. You'll be able to see for yourself, soon.

[Deleted]

If you've read this thread and are curious to see the completed Carcosan Witch class, it appears in my module Obregon's Dishonor (available from Brave Halfling Publishing for $5US) or for free in The Carcosan Grimoire (search these forums for the download link).

[Malcadon]

I'm really enjoying this tread. I have always preferred sorcery over the 'zippo-magic' of high-fantasy. I like the flavor, the ritual, and the costs that comes with sorcery.

The Witch sounds really cool, and I like the approach taken with it. I have my own ideas with it - namely the sort of spells they cast.

I see the brewing of oils and potions as spells into themselves. That is, you need to find the ingredients, and then go through an elaborate ritual to mix it. Such oils and potions could boot natural healing, treat poisons or inflictions, boost fertility/potency, induce love or lust, induce deep sleep or high alertness, or even induce a curse.

Curses could hinder someone in a particular way - animal antipathy, blindness, insanity, impotence/infertility, lameness, horrible nightmares, mutations, rapid aging, and so on. On top of the usual ingredients and rituals, some item of the victim needs to be gathered - hair, nails, teeth, blood, a personal possession, and so on.

I can see witches make good use of Lotus like in the Conan yarns. Drug-induced visions, telepathically linked orgies, and a the active ingredient of a number of potions.

Carcosa is not likely going to have a lot in the way of normal earth animals, seeing how is an alien, and vary primal world. So 'nature magic' would be different then what you see in D&D. A D&D Druid has the benefit of animal empathy and a general control over nature, but a Carcosaian Witch might not have the same level of control with such a hostel world. Like the OD&D Druid, I can see the Witch as an emotionally indifferent sort - reflecting the cruel nature of Carcosa.

I can see the Witch as an important figure in a community. A beloved witch-doctor and a feared sorceress. Any respect she asks for - she gets! Anything or anyone she desires - she gets! Rue to the poor bastard who dont let a witch have it her way!!! I also dont see them as hated enough to be burned at the stake. Carcosa dont have the same values, dogma, or taboos as our world. I see them as highly respected (and feared) individuals, in a world that has a general lack of medical professionals.

[cooper]

Hi guys, I'm new to Carcosa, but have enjoyed reading it. Most especially brilliant was the decision to tie locations of components required for rituals to specific hexes. Something similar could be done with the list of required ingredients for potions from the Gygax's DMG.

pg. 116 states that a potion of clairaudience requires: "Human or Simian thalamus gland or ear from an animal with keen hearing." additionally, since this is carcosa, the referee could reference a specific hex that has a flower or fungi that is also required "hex #344 has X flower required for such a potion." The same too can be done with the ingredients and costs that Gygax references for assassin poisons plus the gold piece cost (equal to XP value) and the upkeep of an alchemical laboratory (200-1000gp +10% upkeep per month). Poison study and manufacture is detailed on Pg. 20 of the DMG

In this way, alchemy and potion/dust/poison making can run parallel with cthuluoid rituals. i.e. you learn the formula for a potion of ESP which requires the brain of a mind flayer (obviously some cuthuloid monster) plus some fungus or flower +Xgp. Ironically, the potion ingredient list in the DMG is the most Carcosian thing in ad&d as many if not most of the ingredients require body parts of sentient creatures.

EDIT: as an after thought. Pg. 13 of the DMG also requires a once a month check for diseases and parasitic infections, I think the inclusion of that into any carcosa game would add a lot of flavor, especially given that such things are probably neigh incurable. On the same page is the determination of age of natural death. Making each character write this down on their character sheet would go a long way toward adding the "fatalism" that Geoffery wrote about in Carcosa. Valar Morgulis and all that; especially useful for sorcerers.