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Post by havard on Feb 10, 2009 11:49:19 GMT -6
I just noticed this: linkDoes anyone here know more about this book? From what I have seen of WotC's 4E books they are actually less useful if you use an older edition than the 3E books were as so much of the books are rules contents. I wonder if the same will be true for the ZGG/CMP books? Thoughts? Havard EDIT BY MOD to make the link a link.  |
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 10, 2009 15:23:16 GMT -6
I don't know -- but the observation is interesting.
In theory, I can see how the graphic design of the new "stat blocks" might make them slightly bigger. Is the problem just that, or something else? I'm wondering how they get into even more "rules contents" of other sorts than 3E. Are they reprinting whole sections from the core books and the startlingly big errata? Are they presenting new rules?
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 10, 2009 23:08:17 GMT -6
In another thread somewhere, Dave mentioned that he knew that Blackmoor was being updated to 4E but hadn't seen a draft of the rules yet. I assume that this is the same book that Dave was mentioning. The link doesn't seem to give a timeline; only lists the book as "pre-order" so who knows when it'll actually see the light of day..... As much as I dislike 3E, it's actually easy to convert to OD&D if you sinply strip away skills and feats and the extra trappings. Basic stuff like hit points, spells, weapon damage, AC, and so on are an easy conversion. From what I've seen of 4E, this process would appear to be a lot harder becasue so much of the 4E rules has been changed and nothing is quite the same anymore. So, I'm not sure if an evolution to 4E is better or worse for OD&D fans.  |
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 11, 2009 0:17:21 GMT -6
That's another aspect. A lot is at least superficially the same in 3E, and I guess spell lists could sometimes be helpful. I really have not found much point in trying to convert with rigid algorithms, and it looks to me as if that would be totally nuts with 4E. It's not as if I really want "nerfed" rust monsters and so on, anyway.
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Post by Random on Feb 11, 2009 7:50:20 GMT -6
It's not as if I really want "nerfed" rust monsters and so on, anyway. I'll never get over the nerfed wights. They are no longer scary or cool in 4E. |
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Post by chgowiz on Feb 11, 2009 9:04:52 GMT -6
It's not as if I really want "nerfed" rust monsters and so on, anyway. I'll never get over the nerfed wights. They are no longer scary or cool in 4E. And that stops someone from making them scary/cool again...? *evil grin* |
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Post by havard on Feb 11, 2009 10:06:56 GMT -6
Wow, alot of responses! I was a little worried 4e in the topic would scare people off...  In another thread somewhere, Dave mentioned that he knew that Blackmoor was being updated to 4E but hadn't seen a draft of the rules yet. I assume that this is the same book that Dave was mentioning. The link doesn't seem to give a timeline; only lists the book as "pre-order" so who knows when it'll actually see the light of day..... Yeah, it is probably the same product. It was scheduled for December 08, but with small companies, it is no surprise it is being postponed. I would say it depends alot on how they want to present the book. Alot of the WotC 4E books are highly condensed crunch (rules). However, there is no real reason why they should be. Stat blocks for monsters and NPCs take up a much smaller space than in 3E. Classes, especially if they want to include new powers/power sources is going to take up alot of space. To me, a Blackmoor 4E sourcebook with mostly crunch is going to be useless. OTOH, if alot of it is setting material is going to be much more useful, even if alot of it is bound to be things we have already seen. Havard |
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Post by dwayanu on Feb 11, 2009 12:40:02 GMT -6
Did new classes figure much in the 3E version of Blackmoor? That's not necessarily predictive, because the designers might follow WotC's lead "just because." Maybe the current Forgotten Realms book would be a better indicator.
To pre-order it looks like a bit of a gamble!
It might be best to present BM "system free." I see an aesthetic appeal there in that originally there was no set system -- Dave was making up procedures as he went along. The basic concepts of monsters and so on became part of D&D, which has in turn informed a host of fantasy games. One can easily swap in stats from one's preferred rule set for a Goblin, Sixth Level Magician, or whatever. Writing up new stuff in terms of how people in the world see it gives a common enough frame of reference while leaving room for players to discover particulars rather than having a perfectly detailed "textbook" -- something else I think might help convey the old-school feel.
Goodman Games is leading the way now in that kind of approach, and Points of Light seems to be selling well enough to warrant sequels. In my (perhaps unrepresentative) experience, more people bought Columbia's Hârn setting materials than got the related rule book. Getting tied to 4E might be a good deal, but the indications so far look to me ambiguous.
Another go at a whole rule-set (a la Adventures in Fantasy) might interest a small coterie of fans, but I doubt that it would be very big commercially. Gygax's Lejendary Adventures appears to have been a flop for retailers. A company might need some other mainstay in such a case, much as Flying Buffalo has Starweb (so not being dependent on T&T) and John McEwan has his line of models and figurines (besides the Star Guard rules).
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Post by snorri on Feb 11, 2009 14:30:40 GMT -6
Would it be possible to get a licence - from Dave or from Blackmoor current editor to get a licence to publish material for other systems - or a new version, a little updated, of the first edition?
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 11, 2009 16:46:01 GMT -6
To pre-order it looks like a bit of a gamble! Except that I'm addicted to Blackmoor. :-) Would it be possible to get a licence - from Dave or from Blackmoor current editor to get a licence to publish material for other systems - or a new version, a little updated, of the first edition? My understanding is that WotC retains rights somehow so that they control the rules format of any published Blackmoor work. I think I read that on Dave's MMRPG pages. Of course, Dave would have the best info on this. |
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blackmoor
Level 4 Theurgist
The First Dungeonmaster
Posts: 115
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Post by blackmoor on Feb 12, 2009 0:22:05 GMT -6
No 4E Blackmoor books as of yesterday. We have the WOTC license for Blackmoor. They are not supposed to infringe on that. CODE MONKEY will be doing a 4 E book but not for awhile.
That is what I know right now. We are doing what we can to keep Blackmoor independent of any system so that more people an enjoy it.
Dave Arneson
"Dark Lord of Game Design"
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Post by havard on Feb 12, 2009 13:21:41 GMT -6
No 4E Blackmoor books as of yesterday. We have the WOTC license for Blackmoor. They are not supposed to infringe on that. CODE MONKEY will be doing a 4 E book but not for awhile. That's too bad. I don't care much for 4e, but it looked like they had some interesting plans for the setting. No idea what this means Dave, but I am intrigued! Havard |
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Post by havard on May 21, 2009 12:46:43 GMT -6
We are doing what we can to keep Blackmoor independent of any system so that more people an enjoy it. Looking back at this quote from Dave, maybe 4E Blackmoor will be more useful to Old School fans than I first thought?  Assuming Blackmoor 4E will be ready for GenCon, I guess CMP will then resume their planned schedule: I don't know about you, but some of these titles sound very fascinating to me! Havard |
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Post by havard on Jul 4, 2009 5:35:04 GMT -6
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Post by havard on Jul 5, 2009 8:04:34 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 6, 2009 19:28:32 GMT -6
And I was just going to ask to see if anyone had any details. Guess I'll have to visit the Piazza.... |
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Post by havard on Jul 8, 2009 11:42:15 GMT -6
Hehe, always nice with a visitor! I wasn't really sure how much 4E info you wanted on this forum. This is the OD&D forum after all, isnt it? Still, any fan of Blackmoor ought to be interested in what's happening to the setting, eh? Havard |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 9, 2009 6:20:18 GMT -6
That's what I thought as well. While I'm not trying to encourage 4E here, and I really didn't want to encourage 3E, I'm always interested in anything Blackmoor.
So, while I prefer OD&D-Blackmoor, I'll take news on 4E-Blackmoor any day! :-) (Topic trumps edition.)
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Post by Falconer on Jul 10, 2009 18:16:50 GMT -6
Well? Is it any good?
Does it seem Arnesonian at all?
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Post by havard on Jul 10, 2009 19:12:59 GMT -6
So, while I prefer OD&D-Blackmoor, I'll take news on 4E-Blackmoor any day! :-) (Topic trumps edition.) Cool! The Piazza is awaiting a new upgrade so I might as well keep posting here. I just bought the pdf last night. I have to say, I like what I am seeing, even coming from a not-so-interested-in-4E point of view. Most of the information in the book, except for the crunch part, has appeared in various 3E books earlier, but it is far from a hard copy of the 3E Sourcebook which I feared it might be. It does a good job of incorporating information from various 3E line Blackmoor books and is a better guide to Blackmoor than the 3E book IMO. Havard |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 16, 2009 19:16:54 GMT -6
Just saw it in a game store this evening. I didn't buy it because I told myself before I went in that I wanted to wait for GenCon even if I saw a copy at the game store (so that I know I won't leave Indy empty-handed) . I thumbed through it briefly. 1. It's a soft cover, not a hardback. I was hoping for a hardback. 2. The cover is basic black. Not so interesting. I don't recall seeing Dave Arneson's name on the cover. It might have been there, but it didn't jump out at me. 3. It is all B&W inside. I was hoping for color. All in all, I wasn't really grabbed much by the book. I was hoping for a product to scream "buy me!" at me. I didn't really take the time to study the content of the book, so this micor-review is based mostly on the knee-jerk "impulse buy" factor. 1. If it hadn't been Blackmoor it really wouldn't have caught my eye. At least the 3E stuff had a dash of color on the cover. 2. If I was averse to 4E stuff this wouldn't change my mind and make me a convert. It was kind of a bummer, actually, seeing this book side by side with all of the WotC color hardbacks. Made their books look a lot more cool. I kind of felt like I was thumbing though a xerox copy of somebody's rulebook. I still plan to buy it at GenCon, but I'm not as frantic about getting it as I was the other day. |
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Post by havard on Jul 17, 2009 7:46:32 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing Fin! I have the pdf, but it might give off a different impression from what its like actually holding the physical copy in your hands. From the PDF cover, Dave Arneson's name is on the cover so it should also be on the hard copy. I agree that hardback would have been nice, but I think that your expectations were a bit high if you expected color interior illustrations. I dont really know if B/W illos are such a bad thing. I prefer good B/W to mediocre color art. However, most third part gaming material will pale in terms of layout, illustrations etc to that of WotC's products. That is just a matter of money. The simple black cover is a risky move. It might appear elegant, but it also might end up seeming uninteresting. Hopefully, people will buy it. I have to say that contents-wise I was fairly happy with The First Campaign, but I am actually much more interested in future releases. This is just getting the basics yet another time. The FFC remains the best introduction to Blackmoor. I am collecting some more rumours of upcoming Blackmoor books over here: thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewforum.php?f=24I will post more in this forum too, but now I need to get back out into the sun Havard |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 18, 2009 11:29:14 GMT -6
I agree that hardback would have been nice, but I think that your expectations were a bit high if you expected color interior illustrations. I dont really know if B/W illos are such a bad thing. I prefer good B/W to mediocre color art. However, most third part gaming material will pale in terms of layout, illustrations etc to that of WotC's products. That is just a matter of money. Not expecting as much as hoping to have color art. I guess I keep thinking about Mongoose's d20 Conan which was amazing at first with hardback and color and I bought everything I could, but then as they got to the "lesser" books they dropped the color and went to softback and I quit buying. The 1E Conan rulebook is amazing, the 2E (B&W) rulebook isn't cool enough to encourage me to buy it. I think that part of Blackmoor's problem is that it has always been overshadowed by TSR/WOTC's game worlds. BM got FFC while Greyhawk got a folio with big color maps and later an expanded boxed set with big color maps. Then, BM got a couple of modules (with minimal color on the maps) and Mystara got a dozen gazateers with awesome maps and such. Now, Forgotten Realms and Eberron get nice full-color hardbacks while BM gets a softcover paperback. Blackmoor has never really gotten the "red carpet" treatment and as such has fewer fans. I just don't know if this book will reach out and attract new ones.  I don't mean to sound too negative. Just my two cents. |
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Post by kevinmayle on Jul 18, 2009 21:24:28 GMT -6
I just found out about this and saw my name listed in the credits, though I didn't work on it.
I did however work on The Players Guide to Blackmoor and Temple of the Frog.
Does this contain any reprinted material from those books?
I'd love to know if I actually have artwork in this book and what it could be.
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Post by havard on Jul 19, 2009 6:29:04 GMT -6
I just found out about this and saw my name listed in the credits, though I didn't work on it. I did however work on The Players Guide to Blackmoor and Temple of the Frog. Does this contain any reprinted material from those books? I'd love to know if I actually have artwork in this book and what it could be. I dont have the pdf available right now, but I am pretty sure I saw a few of your pieces reused from those books yeah Havard |
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Post by kevinmayle on Jul 19, 2009 6:42:15 GMT -6
Oh good, thanks. I'll have to pick one up.
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Post by havard on Jul 23, 2009 18:16:45 GMT -6
Oh good, thanks. I'll have to pick one up. I have identified at least two of your pieces in there. One from the Player's Guide and one from Temple of the Frog IIRC. Havard |
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Post by kevinmayle on Jul 24, 2009 16:49:54 GMT -6
Cool. Stuff from both, together in a new book.
I'm glad I ordered it this morning.
Can't wait till it arrives in the mail.
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Post by James Maliszewski on Jul 24, 2009 18:39:44 GMT -6
Blackmoor has never really gotten the "red carpet" treatment and as such has fewer fans. I just don't know if this book will reach out and attract new ones. I don't mean to sound too negative. Just my two cents. The real crux of the problem is that the Blackmoor IP is wholly owned by WotC and its post-TSR publishers have always had to license it from them. That means that these products are, at least in part, derivative works, which creates a huge disincentive to invest too much effort into them. Or at least it creates a huge disincentive to keep them truly Arnesonian, since that material is what WotC has rights to. Better to create new material, which the publisher can theoretically re-purpose later. |
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Post by havard on Jul 25, 2009 16:34:45 GMT -6
The real crux of the problem is that the Blackmoor IP is wholly owned by WotC and its post-TSR publishers have always had to license it from them. That means that these products are, at least in part, derivative works, which creates a huge disincentive to invest too much effort into them. Or at least it creates a huge disincentive to keep them truly Arnesonian, since that material is what WotC has rights to. Better to create new material, which the publisher can theoretically re-purpose later. While this makes sense, I dont know if it is true for what we have seen so far. While the 3E line has expanded on things and reworked things as would be neccessary given the difference between 3E and previous editions, the products published so far have been pretty close to the DA series, at least in terms of framework. Its a shame that they never got around to publishing the Duchy of Ten supplement, since Dave stated that this is one where the DA module differed somewhat from his vision of those lands, which would have been nice to see corrected. An even greater shame is that we still havent gotten around to seeing DA5 City of Blackmoor, which was never published by TSR, but which ZGG apparently have access to. In the 4E line they current book departs little from what we already have seen in the 3E line, but future books in the Age of the Wolf series will be set centuries into the future. This does make room for doing what you were saying James. Havard |
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