|
|
Post by dwayanu on Jan 9, 2009 19:10:53 GMT -6
Law of Unintended Consequences Dept.:
I started the PCs at first level with maximum HP. That makes the jump to second level (even with a guarantee of at least one more point) a bit anti-climactic in that regard!
The Clerics and MUs get spell-casting ... but what grooviness marks the Fighting Men's graduation?
Suggestions, anyone?
|
|
|
|
Post by Random on Jan 9, 2009 19:55:04 GMT -6
What about his extra attack vs. 1 HD monsters?
|
|
blackmoor
Level 4 Theurgist
The First Dungeonmaster
Posts: 115
|
Post by blackmoor on Jan 9, 2009 23:25:09 GMT -6
A fighter takes more damage, has higher saving throws, etc. If he kills an opponent he gets another attack. When all opponents next to him are gone he gets no more attacks. Thus he chops his way through the weaker creatures pretty quickly. The Great Svenny was good at that. MU needed their protection 'Badly'
DAVE ARNESON
"The Dark Lord of Game Design"
|
|
|
|
Post by dwayanu on Jan 10, 2009 3:29:14 GMT -6
Random: Thanks! Is that based on Vol. 2, p. 5, and Chainmail? I did that in the past, but abandoned it for some reason (maybe AD&D influence?) -- and am grateful to be reminded of it!
Dave: I like that, too! Thank you! I had damage "carry over" in a fight versus kobolds, when it was enough to down two with one roll ... a bit of EPT influence, I guess.
Yes, I think this should keep the sword-swingers happy without over-inflating them.
|
|
jrients
Level 6 Magician
Posts: 411
|
Post by jrients on Jan 10, 2009 9:14:02 GMT -6
Personally, I tend to give the Fighters the benefit of the doubt in many physical situations. All other things being equal, a Magic-User or Cleric might need to make a die roll to successfully climb, swim, jump, etc., where I might allow a Fighter to just succeed.
|
|
|
|
Post by Random on Jan 10, 2009 10:02:57 GMT -6
Random: Thanks! Is that based on Vol. 2, p. 5, and Chainmail? I did that in the past, but abandoned it for some reason (maybe AD&D influence?) -- and am grateful to be reminded of it! To tell you the truth, I don't remember where it is or where it came from. That's the thing with D&D. It's easy to remember the rules, but it's hard to remember exactly where they are and how they are worded. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 10:28:25 GMT -6
Random: Thanks! Is that based on Vol. 2, p. 5, and Chainmail? I did that in the past, but abandoned it for some reason (maybe AD&D influence?) -- and am grateful to be reminded of it! That rule was present in AD&D, but it was rather weakened by changing if from "creatures of 1 HD or less" to "creatures of less than 1 HD". |
|
|
|
Post by snorri on Jan 10, 2009 15:14:12 GMT -6
In Epées & Sorcellerie, I developped the rule as such: a fighter can handle in the same round as much as opponent's hit dice as his level - it don't give him the bility to attack several time the same foe. So, a 7th level fighter could attack 7 orcs, or 1 ogre and 3 orcs, or one troll...
|
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Jan 10, 2009 15:59:20 GMT -6
In Epées & Sorcellerie, I developped the rule as such: a fighter can handle in the same round as much as opponent's hit dice as his level - it don't give him the bility to attack several time the same foe. So, a 7th level fighter could attack 7 orcs, or 1 ogre and 3 orcs, or one troll... Wow. That's a really elegant solution to the problem! Have an exalt for that! By the way, will there be an english translation of your rules once you're done with them? |
|
|
|
Post by dwayanu on Jan 10, 2009 16:37:14 GMT -6
Yeah, I don't go in for multiple attacks by one combatant against one other in OD&D. Part of that is philosophical -- how I "rationalize" the combat model -- and part is a preference for fewer rolls of the dice in order to keep turns moving briskly.
|
|
|
|
Post by Random on Jan 10, 2009 16:56:38 GMT -6
In Epées & Sorcellerie, I developped the rule as such: a fighter can handle in the same round as much as opponent's hit dice as his level - it don't give him the bility to attack several time the same foe. So, a 7th level fighter could attack 7 orcs, or 1 ogre and 3 orcs, or one troll... I made a fighter sub-class (for S&W) with exactly that ability, as well as a couple of others. |
|
|
|
Post by snorri on Jan 10, 2009 20:27:20 GMT -6
By the way, will there be an english translation of your rules once you're done with them? I hope so! Greyharp allready translated the first version with the aid of online translator, but their was some change since and need for reviewing. The complete french version will be available soon, thanks to Brave Halfling Publishing. If an english version would be useful, it would be nice. |
|
gorebonzo
Level 2 Seer
No Honor Among Thieves
Posts: 46
|
Post by gorebonzo on Jan 15, 2009 22:20:12 GMT -6
In my campaign (which I've just switched over to OD&D from a similar homebrew system), I've got the following special abilities for fighters that allow for a fair degree of specialization, I think. Fighting men get them at 3rd, 6th 9th and 10th level. Dwarves (who already get abilities) at 5th and 10th. Elves and Halflings don't get them at all.
Cleave - After your fighter kills an opponent, he may immediately make another attack against any still-standing foe.
Brute - Your fighter rolls a d8 for damage, scoring a critical hit on a 6, 7 or 8.
Quickness - Your fighter rolls initiative twice and takes the higher number.
Favored Weapon - Choose one type of weapon to favor above all others. You get +2 to-hit and damage with this weapon.
Charge - When your fighter makes the first attack in a round, he deals double damage. All attacks against the foe struck by this charge are at +1 until the end of the round.
Leader of Men - Your fighter has a number of Leadership Points per day equal to his level added to every charisma point he has above 13. These leadership points are like bonus HP for the whole party - useable at your fighter’s discretion. For example - Bill the Gnome takes 12 damage in a critical hit, which would kill him. John the fighter has 15 leadership points, so he lets his leadership absorb the blow rather than let the Gnome perish. The fighter has but 3 leadership points left, but the Gnome is still standing.
Battle Tactics - Your fighter has a number of Tactics Points per day equal to his level added to every point of intelligence he has above 13. These points are spent directly before the attack roll of anyone in the fighter’s party, giving a +1 per point spent. They can also be spent before any enemy’s attack roll - giving a -1 per point spent.
|
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Jan 15, 2009 22:47:37 GMT -6
Looks nifty, Gorebonzo!
Do you have similar things for Magic-Users and Clerics, or is the spellcasting enough? (I'm not criticizing; I'm just asking.)
Thanks for sharing that!
|
|
gorebonzo
Level 2 Seer
No Honor Among Thieves
Posts: 46
|
Post by gorebonzo on Jan 16, 2009 8:41:32 GMT -6
Thanks for the compliments, Coffee! As for wizard and Cleric lists, I don't have any yet. I'm relying on spells. Feel sort of bad about halflings, too. They get nothing. I might allow the Rogue class somebody posted here a while back and make a list for them.
[Edit] Well, here you go! I wrote up a rogue class today, and gave them special abilities in the same mold. If you like you can combine these with the fighting man list (I'm tempted to myself) in order to have sneaky, swashbuckling fighter types.
Weaving - When not wearing armor, your Rogue may add 1/2 his level and every point of dexterity he has above 15 to his AC.
Backstab - When attacking a completely unawares opponent, your Rogue may add his level to his damage roll.
Slip Away - When your Rogue acts first in a round of combat, he may elect to hide and avoid notice by even the most attentive foe. He may remain in this safe position, or use the advantage to backstab a combatant.
Ah-Hah! - When an opponent engaging your Rogue in melee misses his attack, your Rogue gets to attack him immediately at +1.
Fool’s Luck - Your Rogue has an number of Fool’s Luck points per game session equal to his level added to every point of dexterity Or charisma he has above 14. These act as bonus hit points, but can only be used on attack that would, by rights, kill the rogue. For example - Jerry the Rogue is down to his last 3 hit points. An orc swings at him, hits, and deals 5 damage. He’s dead! Or he would be if not for fool’s luck - he has 6 points (level 3 + 17 Charisma). He’s down to one point of luck, but that Orc is going to get what’s coming to him!
Read Magic - Your Rogue is versed in magical lore such that he can read some spells with only a small (insignificant, really) chance of failure. Roll 1d20 when reading a scroll for a MU spell that your level would allow you to cast if your choice of class had differed. If that roll is equal to or less than your intelligence, the spell goes off! On a 1, the spell goes off very well - perhaps with a bonus effect. A roll of 20 however - means a backfire. A nasty, magical backfire left up to the DM.
Disarm - Your rogue is a swashbuckling sort, and can disarm foes under the right conditions. If you roll a 6 on your damage die, you may choose to forgo rolling additional damage dice in exchange for sending your foe’s weapon clattering across the room. This still deals 6 damage of intimidation and fatigue, unless your foe is down to his last 6 hits or so (purely physical territory) at which point no damage is dealt by this disarming strike.
Vital Seeking - When attacking an unawares opponent, your Rogue may ignore any AC bonus he has due to armor - hitting at his weak, exposed areas.
A few notes - I play with exploding damage dice, which should explain some backstab / brute related stuff. I also use ascending AC - hence the wording on Vital Seeking. Should be fairly easy to port over.
|
|
|
|
Post by coffee on Jan 16, 2009 9:51:51 GMT -6
Halflings already get to hide and have deadly accuracy with missiles, so that's something. It's not like they get absolutely nothing.
|
|
gorebonzo
Level 2 Seer
No Honor Among Thieves
Posts: 46
|
Post by gorebonzo on Jan 16, 2009 9:55:01 GMT -6
The accuracy and hiding are both great, but they're along the lines of Dwarven abilities - and I still let dwarves pick up stuff at 5th and 10th level. My solution, as it turns out, was to make up a list for my homebrew rogue class. I edited it into my last post if you're interested. It's completely compatible with fighting men, if rogues aren't to your taste.
|
|
|
|
Post by zagnalopius on Jan 17, 2009 21:23:42 GMT -6
Personally, I like to give Fighting-Men (and Fighting-Men only) improved damage at 3rd, 6th, and 9th level, and the ability to attack multiple opponents simultaneously starting at 3rd level. Although I’m presenting these mechanics in the context of my own house rules, I’m sure I don't need to tell anyone on this board to ignore what they don’t like and to spindle and mutilate what they do to fit their own games.
To put things in perspective, all characters and monsters in my game have six sided hit dice, and although I use my own variable damage scheme, 1d6 is the general baseline damage for attacks by man-sized humanoids. Attacks by Fighting-Men are 5% more effective with each successive level. Thusly a 2nd level Fighting-Man is THAC0 18, while one of 9th level is THAC0 11. Also, I cap Fighting-Men’s advancement at 9th level. To progress further requires divine/demonic patronage, reliance on Artifacts, strange rituals and forgotten magic, and the doing of epic deeds worthy of legend.
Regardless, the base damage for small one-handed weapons, such as daggers, is 1d3. Larger one-handed weapons, such as swords, maces, and axes inflict 1d6 points, and two-handed weapons do 2d4 points of damage. These base ranges are expanded for higher-level Fighting-Men as follows:
Level 3
Small: 1d4, One-Handed: 1d8, Two Handed: 1d10+1(2-11 points)
Level 6
Small: 1d5, One-Handed: 1d10, Two Handed: d6+d8 (2-14 points)
Level 9
Small: 1d6, One-Handed: 1d12, Two Handed: 2d8
Starting at 3rd level, Fighting-Men have the option of attacking multiple opponents each round. Note however, that the more attacks a Fighting-Man attempts to make each round, the less effective each attack will be.
Level 3
2 Attacks at 1st Level.
Level 4
3 Attacks at 1st Level.
Level 5
4 Attacks at 1st Level, OR 2 at 2nd Level.
Level 6
5 Attacks at 1st Level, OR 2 at 2nd Level.
Level 7
6 Attacks at 1st Level, OR 3 at 2nd Level, OR 2 at 3rd Level.
Level 8
7 Attacks at 1st Level, OR 3 at 2nd Level, OR 2 at 3rd Level.
Level 9
8 Attacks at 1st Level, OR 4 at 2nd Level, OR 3 at 3rd Level, OR 2 at 4th Level.
Players can vary their number of attacks per round as they see fit during a battle. By way of explanation, let us observe a typical day in the life of Lord Elron, a 9th level Fighting-Man.
Just prior to elevenses, Elron is beset by a veritable horde of goblins. Being a Lord and all of that, our hero may choose from among 4 modes of retaliation. He could, for instance, make one attack against an individual Goblin at full strength (THAC0 11, 1d12 points of damage using the system detailed above). Other possibilities would be to attack 2 of the goblins as a 4th level Fighting-Man (THAC0 16, 1d8 points of damage), 3 of them as a 3rd level Fighting-Man (THAC0 17, 1d8 points of damage), or perhaps even 4 of them as a 2nd level Fighting-Man (THAC0 18, 1d6 points of damage). Instead, realizing the gravity of his situation, Elron opts to madly lay about himself on all sides with his sword and attack the 8 closest goblins (THAC0 19, 1d6 points of damage).
Still maddened with battle-lust, a gore smeared Lord Elron charges into the closest sinister looking cave to pick a fight with six ogres. Again, he could choose from any of the attack options listed above, but decides it most expedient to battle 2 of them per round at the 4th level of skill (THAC0 16, 1d8 points of damage).
Later that evening, just after the cheese course, but before the digestive liquors, Elron faces death itself in the form of a large adult blue dragon, still enraged by the offhand murder her mate earlier that week. Marshaling all of his terrible prowess, Lord Elron attacks but once each round at full strength (THAC0 11, 1d12 points of damage).
|
|
|
|
Post by cadriel on Jan 20, 2009 10:20:06 GMT -6
This is the codified house rules I'm thinking of:
Starting at 4th (Hero) level, Fighting-Men who have slain a foe in combat may move on and attack another foe within five feet. Starting at 8th (Super-Hero) level, Fighting-Men may engage two opponents at once (that is, roll to hit two foes per round) so long as both are within range of the fighting-man. Super-Heroes and higher level Fighting-Men do not receive multiple “to hit” rolls versus a single foe.
|
|
|
|
Post by longcoat000 on Feb 9, 2009 13:46:40 GMT -6
Fighting men can already use any sort of magical weapon or armor (Vol. 1, pg. 6), thus making them the only ones able to use intelligent swords (Vol. 1, pg. 6 & Vol. 2, pg. 27), begin with more hit points (they start with 1D+1 (Vol. 1, pg. 7), making them and the party immune to multiple attacks at first level (Vol. 2, pg. 5)), have the best fighting capability and fighting capability advancement (Vol. 1, pg. 19, advancing every three levels as opposed to every four (clerics) or five (magic-users)), the best saving throw advancement (Vol. 1, pg. 20, same as their fighting advancement, so while they don't have the best to begin with, they get better faster), can build castles & increase their income (Vol. 1, pg. 6).
Additionally, fighting men have the widest choice when it comes to multi-classing (they can choose either cleric or magic-user, while those classes are restricted to changing to fighting men only (Vol. 1, pg. 10)). The closest I could come in the 3LBB to finding the rule on fighting men getting multiple attacks against creatures is the note in Vol. 2 about monsters getting a number of attacks equal to their total hit dice when fighting normal men (i.e. 1HD creatures), which could be applied to fighting men because fighting men are listed as a monster type. I suspect it may be in Chainmail (which I don't have access to right now). Can anyone source it?
All-in-all, I'd say that the abilities that fighting men have are perfect for their role as front-line combatants in a 3LBB game. IMO, I think that they have a better go of it than magic-users and clerics, because most of their "cool" abilities (making things that breathe not so breathy) can be handled with in-game narration, instead of being limited by codefied effects like spells are. This gives them a much better opportunity to try new and different things, instead of using the same old spell all the time.
|
|
|
|
Post by kesher on Feb 9, 2009 17:42:28 GMT -6
It's explained rather confusingly in Issue Two ( I believe) of The Strategic Review. It's not convenient for me to check at the moment, but I imagine someone else will chime in here with a confirmation.  When you lay it out like that, it makes for a strong argument that the FM already has everything he needs! I still like the multiple attacks idea simply because it adds just a bit of heroic punch to combat. In fact, as I write this, I'm now considering (since their HD is technically more than one) letting FM have two attacks/round on creatures =< one HD from level one... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2009 18:40:58 GMT -6
Yes, Kesher. The Strategic Review, Summer 1975 Vol I, No. 2. Pg. 3
The Article is "Questions Most Frequently Asked About Dungeons & Dragons Rules" No author is given but Gary Gygax was the Editor, and Brian Blume the Associate Editor. I'll quote only a part of the article here.
"When fantastic combat is taking place there is normally only one exchange of attacks per round, and unless the rules state otherwise, a six-sided die is used to determine how many hit points damage is sustained when an attack succeeds. Weapon type is not considered, save where magical weapons are concerned. A super hero, for example, would attack eight times only if he was fighting normal men (or creatures basically that strength, i.e., kobolds, goblins, gnomes, dwarves, and so on)."
|
|
|
|
Post by snorri on Feb 10, 2009 15:43:41 GMT -6
I come back with an idea I put in application in Epées & Sorcellerie, but I just updated here for 'alternative systeme in Od&D' (E&S is closer from chainmail with a 2d6 system). It's about Sword& Sorcery warriors fighting in loincloth. The idea is to have an AC directly from DEX score. If your AC without armor is beter than with armor, drop the armor - it slow you. If your AC in armor is better, take one. I propose the following table:
DEX AC
18 3
17 3
16 3
15 4
14 5
13 6
12 7
11 8
10 8
9 8
8 9
7 9
6 9
5 9
4 9
3 9
+ regular bonus for a shield, giving an AC bewteen 9 and 2 as usual [If you play ascending AC S&W, just use DEX score instead of Armor]. In E&S, I also use second weapon as a shield.
As with 3d6 in order, characters with very high Dex are are, it's easy to use.
|
|
|
|
Post by longcoat000 on Feb 12, 2009 16:50:04 GMT -6
It's explained rather confusingly in Issue Two ( I believe) of The Strategic Review. It's not convenient for me to check at the moment, but I imagine someone else will chime in here with a confirmation. When you lay it out like that, it makes for a strong argument that the FM already has everything he needs! I still like the multiple attacks idea simply because it adds just a bit of heroic punch to combat. In fact, as I write this, I'm now considering (since their HD is technically more than one) letting FM have two attacks/round on creatures =< one HD from level one... I would call that perfectly acceptable, provided that all combatants on the enemy's side are 1HD or less. The FM would get a number of attacks equal to their level, so if it's an 8th level FM vs. eight 1HD brigands, then he could take a single attack on each (provided they were surrounding him), or any combination totaling 8 attacks. It also means that if our 8th level FM felt a need to teach some mouthy 1HD punk at a bar a lesson about shooting his mouth off, he'd end up with 8 attacks on a single creature...D&D, meet Cuisanart. Makes it a bit easier to plow through those first few levels when revisiting Megadungeons, doesn't it? BUT, if there's even one enemy combatant that has more than 1HD, then the fighter is reduced back to 1 attack / turn, because they have to focus on the greater threat. So the same rule that helps players against monsters will also hinder them when the roles are reversed. Tit-for-tat. However, since there is no actual rule supporting multiple attacks for FM in the 3LBB (remember, the dungeon is not your friend and you are encouraged to only fight when you must, and only when you have the advantage), it would be up to an individual DM to implement and make a ruling. Not many of us have copies of The Strategic Review lying about... ;D |
|
|
|
Post by supernaught on Mar 17, 2009 8:09:22 GMT -6
I have considered adopting a rule used in Bard Game's Arcanum rule set. Warriors gain weapon specialization which gives a +1 to damage for a specific weapon every other level. For my taste, if I ever use it I would apply it at 1st, 5th and 9th level. Each time specialization is gained, it could be applied to the same or a different weapon so a 9th level lord could be a master of the sword at +3 damage. Power inflation is always something to carefully consider in a campaign especially when the LBB d6 damage system is used. Also, a simple +1 damage for a high strength could be an elegant solution but could possibly apply to non-fighters as well; however, modifying the idea of exceptional strength from the Greyhawk supplement, one could only give the bonus to fighters.
|
|
|
|
Post by calithena on Mar 17, 2009 8:53:00 GMT -6
On a different angle entirely...
If you run a 'campaign world' with the expectation that PCs are eventually going to become lords, kings, etc., restrict the noble titles to Fighting Men. Lawful Wizards, Priests, etc. don't rule, and neither do demi-humans - those classes are the Companions to the Hero, who is the Fighter. So then the fighter's relative weakness at higher levels (depending on magic items, it must be said) is balanced out by being the 'hero of the story' and the one who actually gets to gather armies and rule stuff.
|
|
|
|
Post by dwayanu on Apr 4, 2009 17:54:04 GMT -6
BTB, clerics get a big boost in setting up a stronghold. (All told, I wonder now why I never found the class nearly as appealing as I did in AD&D.)
I think it ought to be easier for a Lord to excel in the power-politics "high level game." Clerics should find theology a constraint, whilst MUs are basically lightning rods that tend to spark to the discomfort of bystanders.
Multiple attacks keep fighters pretty strong if armies are made up mainly of "normal man" equivalents. I am coming to see how they seem too weak at high levels in AD&D and onward, but I think a lot of that has to do with campaign set-up.
I dig the many cool ideas getting presented in this thread! I guess the moral of my initial post is "beware of unintended consequences." Maximum HP at 1st level is a bigger deal when one is re-rolling HD (as opposed to adding a new HD) each level.
|
|
|
|
Post by ragnorakk on Jun 5, 2009 13:27:57 GMT -6
What about letting Fighting Men 'shrug off' damage based on their constitution bonus?
With all weapons at d6...would that be too good?
|
|
|
|
Post by snorri on Jun 5, 2009 17:45:39 GMT -6
What about letting Fighting Men 'shrug off' damage based on their constitution bonus? With all weapons at d6...would that be too good? The idea is nice, but it will mainly reduces by 1hp for the fighting-men with 15 and more in Constitution. It should works fine much better in games with a broader range of modifiers (lab'lord, even E&S,...) |
|
