How to DM the "id'ing" of magic thru trial/error

[chgowiz]

James Maliszewski's post on Magic Items in the various D&D editions and the thread that he referenced on ENWorld got me thinking about a situation I just faced in my wife's solo game.

Back when I cut my DM'ing teeth, we just accepted that the PCs or someone would be able to identify the treasure we had found. Either the sage in the tower, or through the use of an Identify spell. I never really had the chance as a player or DM to experience testing an item for it's magic abilities and learning it.

I guess I can imagine how "Detect Magic" would play into it, and the obvious clues that this item has something wondrous (or dark) about it... but beyond that, how do you make it so that it's a puzzle and not a frustration. "OK, I whip out the sword [which is +2] and see if it does anything on the goblin's head..." I can imagine possible ways of doing this, but I thought I would avail myself of the experience found here.

I've read through a couple of other threads and have seen some great ideas. Like the comments on potions - did you make all Healing Potions have some sort of common characteristic?

So how do you experienced OD&D DM's do it?

[yesmar]

I like Gygax's technique: instant identification of more common magic items (in exchange for a sizeable chunk of change). Potions still need to be tasted. Unusual items require a trip to the 'striped mage.' (I'm sure that would cost a bundle--and be quite interesting to role-play, as well.) This keeps the action going.

[chgowiz]

Dec 23, 2008 23:55:23 GMT -6 yesmar said:

I like Gygax's technique: instant identification of more common magic items (in exchange for a sizeable chunk of change). Potions still need to be tasted. Unusual items require a trip to the 'striped mage.' (I'm sure that would cost a bundle--and be quite interesting to role-play, as well.) This keeps the action going.

I was thinking, based on some readings on the magic swords from Sham's M&T review, that the more "common" non-intelligent, ordinary +type magic items are not really magic, but more of the best of the best. I know it's not exactly D&D, but think of the "Hanzo" blades from Kill Bill - everyone was in awe of them because of their fine craftsmanship and special abilities. These would end up being easy to identify (and perhaps give rise to the use of "Read Languages").

I like that approach to potions.

How did the "trip to the striped mage" work? Is that some old school lore?

Thank you for your response!

[Deleted]

Dec 24, 2008 8:04:08 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

How did the "trip to the striped mage" work? Is that some old school lore?

Yes, very "old school." Click the link below to go to Grodog's Greyhawk website, page about 2/3 of the down the page (or search the page for "striped mage") for a brief note about that particular person.

www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html

[chgowiz]

Dec 24, 2008 9:24:10 GMT -6 @dubeers said:

Dec 24, 2008 8:04:08 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

How did the "trip to the striped mage" work? Is that some old school lore?

Yes, very "old school." Click the link below to go to Grodog's Greyhawk website, page about 2/3 of the down the page (or search the page for "striped mage") for a brief note about that particular person.

www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_sources_soapbox.html

Funny stuff!

[Deleted]

Dec 24, 2008 13:56:16 GMT -6 @chgowiz said:

Funny stuff!

Yes. The little vignettes and stories such as these really give a great feel for what D&D was like in its infancy. I'm glad you enjoyed it (that's not my site, btw, but the author is active in the 'net and may be here from time to time).

[badger2305]

FWIW, I'm much more on the side of having to figure out what the magical properties of an item are. Part of it comes from having played a lot of Empire of the Petal Throne, where figuring out what an Eye (magical device) did was an elaborate and uncertain procedure, often resulting in much hilarity in the process. Part of comes from original D&D play, in which identifying items became quests in their own right - often involving finding some mage who had some notion of what it was.

I think it really depends on the item, actually. Potions are full of peril, just by their nature. I'd let an Alchemist (as a specialist from Book 3) identify a potion. A magical sword might be identified as having some sort of bonus, but might require more investigation - clues like glowing faintly blue in the presence of orcs and goblins might help. Some weapons are named and therefore would have properties associated with them, if anyone knew. Still other items might be identifiable instantly.

So while some people might prefer the Gygaxian method of "instant ID" that doesn't necessarily mean it is the only way to do things. I guess I am a little concerned about opinions I have seen expressed here and elsewhere on this board that somehow exalt Gary's way of doing things as the "one right way" to do it, when he himself would have objected to that kind of thinking. If I am overreacting, my apologies in advance.

[calithena]

This is a good subject.

I often run these things as extended 'roleplaying' scenes. This is natural with characters who use spells like Contact Other Plane or Legend Lore to find out: they take a trip to the otherworld, deal with mystic powers, etc.

But I often allow magical characters to 'trance out', sort of a mystic insight phase with magic items, auras, enchantments, etc., to 'probe' them psychically. Sometimes this leads to die rolls or aggravating things, other times it's just a more immersive way to tell the player what's going on I suppose. But anyway it makes magic come alive a little in my games and allows for discovery sequences that feel a little more involved.

Also there's the old 'learn by doing' thing, where you can find out what the wand, ring, etc. does by triggering its effect. This can be scary and fun but usually (not always) harmless.

[grodog]

I'm definitely in the "PCs consult with experts to ID items" camp: whether alchemists, bards, wizards, HPs, guilds, etc.---such consultation is fun (from a role-playing POV), and saps PCs' cash (which is always good from a DMing POV).

Identify is a pretty risky spell to use btb in a dungeon (dropping 8 points of CON is never a good thing, and usually even worse for an MU), so I've got some higher-level versions that allow casters to ID for longer spans of time (and with less CON loss), and these are the kinds of services that PCs usually leverage. Detect Magic (from an MU, not a cleric) can also reveal quite a bit of useful info about a magic item, if the MU checks for its aura strength, school of magic, etc. (see DMG notes on the spell).

And, thanks for the plug, dubeers

[Zulgyan]

I have gone as far as eliminating detect magic and read magic from the spell lists!!

First, IMC, magic item not only look magical (they are usually cooler, more decorated, runed or jewel incrusted compared to normal stuff), they also feel magical. Swords feel strangely lighter for their size, and suprisingly easier to manuever compared to normal weapons. Any fighter call tell a sword is special by just trying a few swings.

I usually tell the bonus of that weapon secretly to the wielder after a couple of fights.

If the weapon is for example, +1 but +3 vs trolls, I hide that until trolls are encountered, and then say the wieldier feels the sword becoming hotter, or making a very low buzz or lightening up with a faint glow.

OR, I could have an old beggar in town recognize the sword, tell it's story for a coin and explain it's functions.

There is really no hard and fast rule. I just come up with what I think is fun.

With potions, it usually comes to trying them or studying them for a while, comparing them with some notes found of the dungeon on the mad wizard's lab.

One could also find a book, explaining a magic item, or a poem or song.

Or could have a dream that tells you about the item.

Trial and error is also potencially fun (and deadly) with wands and staves.

There are millions of ways around it,..

[chgowiz]

Zulgyan - I like your list a lot. I've been doing something similar. Right now, my wife is dealing with a sword that for some reason, she feels compelled to clean/sharpen it a LOT, even though it's already clean and sharp. It's a minor curse, but she knows something is up with it.

[Deleted]

I think that players should have to play the guess-and-check game. Of course, some of my players started to compile a list of things to try every time they found a ring and that started to take a bit of the fun out of it.

[ragnorakk]

You ever play nethack? It's fantastic and hilarious and pretty stinkin' 'old school'. You don't get to sip a potion - you have to down it to find out it's effect (if you don't know) - you have to zap a wand and observe - and there's even a magic item in the game called 'Wand of Nothing'(!) How great is that! Yes the Identify spell is a <u>necessity</u> in that game.
I like the idea of PC's experimenting, but more often than not, will do something like calithena's trance mentioned above - sort of a rip off of RM's attunement skill, usually involving a roll on some relevant stat or such.
But when it comes to particular (ie mechanical crunch details) I try to keep it to myself until it becomes too tedious and say "OK - it's +2" or whatever...
Know this post has been sleeping for a while - if you're still reading, what have you ended up doing in the game?

[Deleted]

Jan 10, 2009 15:12:36 GMT -6 grodog said:

And, thanks for the plug, dubeers

You're welcome. That is an entertaining site.

[chgowiz]

Mar 13, 2009 13:10:34 GMT -6 ragnorakk said:

Know this post has been sleeping for a while - if you're still reading, what have you ended up doing in the game?

I have many fond memories of dying in Nethack, not a few because of errant items I had to test, like potions and whatnot.

I'm currently doing the "try it to figure it out" method. My wife's solo game has her learning that this sword (which she just learned has the words 'Desire Me' carved on it) will cause her to "blank out" for an hour or two to obsessively clean/sharpen it. It works really well for her, but she has to "try" (make CHA checks) to do things that aren't involved with fighting.

She has to taste potions to get a sense of if it's good or bad. Healing potions she'll know right away, others, she won't know full effects until she downs the whole thing.

Some of the same things, I'm doing in my Dark Ages game. There's the possibility of sages, but the party would have to leave the item behind...