A question of scale

[greentongue]

Modern drawing methods with the exact squares instead of hand drawn style maps are the root cause of this I believe.
If the map is using approximate scale but drawn on a precise grid, as many are, then this mismatch become obvious.

Too bad that hand drawn style is not the standard.

[chicagowiz]

Mar 23, 2023 11:22:13 GMT -6 greentongue said:

Modern drawing methods with the exact squares instead of hand drawn style maps are the root cause of this I believe.
If the map is using approximate scale but drawn on a precise grid, as many are, then this mismatch become obvious.

Too bad that hand drawn style is not the standard.

Well, in my case with the original post concerning the dungeon map from T1, not sure if you consider that modern or not. In my use case, it's also a question of which scale would look correct on 1"=10' scale terrain. Especially when shooting for a scale that can accommodate 10 or 20:1 figure representations alongside 1:1 figures. I've found in printing some dungeon tiles at 1:10 and using 15mm seems to be a good compromise.

[Malchor]

Mar 22, 2023 7:04:51 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I was using GW as an example, but lots of rules don't worry about figure scale vs. ground scale. But also I was discussing more generally, I didn't pick up that you were concerned specifically and solely with BH and WoM - I figured you were also using them simply as examples.

There reference to BH and WoM was explicit, also in that period, scale mattered, it is something miniatures warmers of the time talked about often.

From Gygax's Classic Warfare: "It is assumed that figures used will be 25mm scale , although 20mm figures will work as well. If smaller figures are used the overall scales noted below must be adjusted accordingly, i.e., stands must be smaller, ground scale made greater per inch, etc ."

[Desparil]

Mar 24, 2023 7:41:31 GMT -6 Malchor said:

Mar 22, 2023 7:04:51 GMT -6 Desparil said:

I was using GW as an example, but lots of rules don't worry about figure scale vs. ground scale. But also I was discussing more generally, I didn't pick up that you were concerned specifically and solely with BH and WoM - I figured you were also using them simply as examples.

There reference to BH and WoM was explicit, also in that period, scale mattered, it is something miniatures warmers of the time talked about often.

From Gygax's Classic Warfare: "It is assumed that figures used will be 25mm scale , although 20mm figures will work as well. If smaller figures are used the overall scales noted below must be adjusted accordingly, i.e., stands must be smaller, ground scale made greater per inch, etc ."

Again, I recognize you explicitly referenced those games, but I was originally under the impression that you were merely using them as examples, not restricting your commentary to those games and only those games. Mea culpa on that specific point.

As for discourse on figure scale with ground scale, everything I've seen in my time has been aimed at ensuring that the quantity of miniatures is sufficient to look suitably impressive - not aiming at 1:1 parity with ground scale. For example, DBA gives a ground scale of 1" = 100 paces for 15mm miniatures, and suggests a reduction to 1" = 50 paces for 25mm miniatures.

If you want to go back to something even older, Bruce Quarrie's Napoleonic rules discuss several possible miniature scales for use and never suggests changing the ground scale to match the miniatures - to the contrary, his primary concern is on basing the miniatures so that they occupy the correct frontage, and he prefers the Airfix because they are small enough to accomplish this yet large enough that they look appropriately "packed in" and not too spaced apart. His ground scale is 1mm = 1 yard, and according to him the Airfix figures are slightly smaller than 20mm scale. He specifically brings up the fact that if you applied the ground scale to heights, then a 25mm figure would be an equal number of yards tall, and basically brushes it aside as "this is overcomplicated, but if it really bothers you that much then feel free to come up with your own solution." This edition was published in 1977, though it's a revision of rules that he published in Airfix Magazine in 1974. So while you're certainly correct that some wargamers were concerned with figure height compared to ground scale, there were plenty of others who were not - it's not at all a recent development.

[greentongue]

This certainly impacts my trying to convert 2D maps into 3D virtual terrain. While I have basically unlimited space to do so, applying rules that assumed 2D gets "interesting".
Skirmish rules that assume miniatures are being used with physical terrain is much easier than "RPG" rules that assume "Theater of the Mind".

[dwayanu]

A ground scale of 1” : 10’ should be a good match for the figure scale of nominally 15mm figures, maybe not so good with nominally 18mm ones.

I’ve been looking at a couple of makes of 10mm for possible use with RuneQuest, even though I’d rarely be using so many of a given type, and the availability of individual personalities as well as of monsters leaves much to be desired. Larger alternatives might be a little more available from UK or European vendors than from US ones.

I’m more confident that I’ll go for 10mm for more tactical 19th century wargames. (For full battles, I’ve gone pretty abstract with bases of rather few 1/72 plastic models. For the look of large numbers, I’d probably go down to the 1/300 neighborhood, maybe Baccus 6mm.)

[skars]

Mar 25, 2023 15:46:13 GMT -6 dwayanu said:

A ground scale of 1” : 10’ should be a good match for the figure scale of nominally 15mm figures, maybe not so good with nominally 18mm ones.

I’ve been looking at a couple of makes of 10mm for possible use with RuneQuest, even though I’d rarely be using so many of a given type, and the availability of individual personalities as well as of monsters leaves much to be desired. Larger alternatives might be a little more available from UK or European vendors than from US ones.

I’m more confident that I’ll go for 10mm for more tactical 19th century wargames. (For full battles, I’ve gone pretty abstract with bases of rather few 1/72 plastic models. For the look of large numbers, I’d probably go down to the 1/300 neighborhood, maybe Baccus 6mm.)

Warmaster by gw are still my favorite fantasy minis in 10mm scale but being long out of print, can be difficult to come by. But the line has a bunch of individual characters and champions. Pendraken are the other company I know of that specialized in 10mm at one point or another as was minifigs for historical n scale (close to 10 but more like 12mm)