A first look at Amazon's Rings of Power show.

[Deleted]

I don't really claim to be anything more than an enthusiastic fan who still has a lot left to read, but I think the Professor was from that generation of authors who often used "Black" in the context of evil or fallen, which is what the Black Numenoreans were. (They listened to Sauron and attacked the Valar, among other questionable actions such as building an altar to Morgoth.)

[tdenmark]

Feb 17, 2022 7:09:19 GMT -6 Mushgnome said:

Feb 17, 2022 0:09:40 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

This explains everything!

Go ahead then, they can stuff anything they want into this. It's just fan fiction. Nothing matters.

The Lord Of The Rings: The Rings Of Power Showrunners Admit They Don’t Have The Rights To The Silmarillion Or Unfinished Tales

Check your sources before posting, please. "boundingintocomics" is a known hate-speech site associated with the alt-right. They are associated with the "Comicsgate" incident, harassing and threatening artists. This kind of drivel has no place on odd74, please.

mediabiasfactcheck.com/bounding-into-comics/

The thread was locked so I couldn't respond earlier. I sent a PM.

I don't know anything about the politics of comics (and really, don't care to get into it). This story has been confirmed by multiple sources, and Amazon themselves.

Now that I think of the Rings of Power as fan fic, none of it bothers me. It might as well be Generic Fantasy World #473. It will stand or fall on its own.

[Deleted]

Someone posted an interesting commentary by Prof. Tolkien on beards at the subreddit. I'm not sure exactly what book this is from. It specifies Male Dwarves as being bearded, but I thought I remembered some line in the Silmarillion mentioning all Dwarves being bearded. I think this is one of those niggling little details the prof waffled back and forth on throughout the years. 

[geoffrey]

Ha! My instincts almost completely coincide with those of good Professor Tolkien:

No beards:
all elves
all hobbits
Numenorean chieftains
Isildur
Aragorn
Denethor
Boromir
Faramir
Imrahil

Beards:
male dwarves
wizards ("though Radagast...had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin")

Only Radagast do I imagine differently: He has a long, full beard (with a mustache) of flowing, medium brown hair.

[Deleted]

Radagast is "a master of shapes and hues" so in my headcanon he always looks a little different whenever he appears.

[tkdco2]

Didn't Tolkien once decide that elven males could grow beards in their third cycle of life? That would explain Cirdan, who was described as having a long beard. Feanor's father-in-law, Mahtan, grew a beard in his second cycle of life.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2022 18:36:01 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Didn't Tolkien once decide that elven males could grow beards in their third cycle of life? That would explain Cirdan, who was described as having a long beard. Feanor's father-in-law, Mahtan, grew a beard in his second cycle of life.

I think the fascinating thing about Tolkien is that he decided a lot of contradictory things at different periods of time in his life. It's one of the major obstacles Christopher ran into when releasing books after his father's death. He had to carefully craft the narrative in a way that was both internally consistent and consistent with where he believed his father was sitting on many issues at the time of his death, or closest to it. (I watched a whole video the other day about the Blue Wizards, for instance, or the fate of Orcs after Sauron's fall. He went back and forth on these issues many times in his life. Orcs especially he struggled with. He was Catholic so he didn't believe anyone was irredeemable. He regretted portraying them as mindless pawns with little to no free will.)

[geoffrey]

Yeah, Tolkien changed his mind a lot. When The Lord of the Rings was published, he considered Galadriel a penitent for having fled Valinor with the Noldor after the Kinslaying. By the early 70s, however, he had decided that Galadriel had instead left Valinor in a sinless manner.

[tdenmark]

Feb 20, 2022 15:38:51 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

Yeah, Tolkien changed his mind a lot.

As all creative people do. Sometimes it seems fans think Middle Earth is a real place. I get it, I want it to be real too.

[tkdco2]

Author Chris Gore shares his concerns about the upcoming series based on a couple of quotes: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv9u9Nwi6Y4

[Falconer]

2:04 “I’ve never read the books”

[tkdco2]

Mar 3, 2022 0:39:32 GMT -6 Falconer said:

2:04 “I’ve never read the books”

I know, but to be fair, neither have a lot of folks who enjoyed the LOTR movies. But he is right about having respect for the source material. That's why fans complained about the Hobbit movies. And the trailer seems to be the same way. The whole hullaballoo about having a racially diverse cast is a nonissue for me. The BBC recently did that with their production of Les Miserables, and nobody to my knowledge raised a stink. But if Amazon is going to make radical changes to established characters, particularly their histories and motivations, then it will be a problem.

[Deleted]

I have personally experienced this style of deflection and false claims of bigotry in the Star Wars community. For a long time if you criticized the sequels in any way, they quickly defaulted to "you must just hate the diversity of the cast" etc.

You similarly see something along those lines if you mention OSR or OD&D on certain RPG boards. "Oh, you must be nostalgic for the all white men club." It's low-hanging fruit for a certain type of internet person. Refuse to acknowledge the substance of the complaint or preference and invent negative personality traits in the other person instead.

[tkdco2]

I don't see anyone making that claim here. We may feel differently about the racial diversity, but nobody has accused anyone else of bigotry in this thread.

As for the Star Wars sequels, there was a significant amount of bigotry, especially towards Kelly Marie Tran. It's true that not everyone who hated the sequels is a bigot, some folks like me just thought they were pretty disappointing on the whole. But that's a different discussion.

[tdenmark]

Mar 5, 2022 7:25:22 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I have personally experienced this style of deflection and false claims of bigotry in the Star Wars community. For a long time if you criticized the sequels in any way, they quickly defaulted to "you must just hate the diversity of the cast" etc.

This is by far one of the worst aspects of modern discourse on the internet. You can't just not like something because you don't think it is very good.

The next series I'm afraid is going to get butchered is The Chronicles of Narnia on Netflix.

[Deleted]

First two episodes are up on Amazon Prime and I just watched them. Perhaps we need a spoiler discussion thread if anyone else is watching?

[Falconer]

Go for it!
(I’m not watching.)

[Deleted]

I already made a lengthy list of observations at Dragonsfoot, but I'll do a less spoilery commentary about the overall structure of the show here. 

I won't be comparing this show to Tolkien's notes on the Second Age for the most part, but rather try to focus on it as a prequel to the Jackson-verse films and assume this is a parallel continuity to the books. That saves a lot of headache in discussions of such things. It's like how when you run a D&D game in Greyhawk it's not Gary's Greyhawk but your interpretation of it, right?

They're leaning heavily on the "zoom around the map" trope from Game of Thrones, but that's not a bad thing, and the map of Middle-Earth they use is beautiful. 

They're also utilizing the modern tv trope in these type of fantasy or science fiction shows of following several small groups of people whose stories eventually will intertwine. 

I have no complaints about any of the casting, for the most part. All these people seem to embody the characters they're meant to be playing. I'm not 100% on board with Galadriel yet, just because she's supposed to evolve into the PJ film version at some point and she seems farther away from that than, say, the guy playing Elrond is to becoming his film-verse version. 

The various races and cultures are portrayed well enough. They do a good job of showing that the cultures people might know from the LOTR films either don't exist yet or were much more archaic during this time period. For instance, the lands that become Rohan later are shown as wilderness where human nomadic hunters sometimes trek through and where

SPOILER: Click to show

Hobbit ancestors named Harfoots live.

I really enjoy the soundtrack, too. Howard Shore does the intro and Bear McReary does the main soundtrack. Both these gentlemen have a fantastic track record with soundtracks and they do solid work here. 

One character is seemingly out of place in this tv show but

SPOILER: Click to show

it might not actually be Gandalf. It's definitely a Maiar of some form but there's this ambiguity on who Sauron is supposed to be in this cast of characters, as stated by the showrunners. Also, as previously stated, I don't believe it was ever stated in the PJ films precisely when or how Mithrandir came to Middle-Earth. I'm very familiar with Tolkien's canon version, but they may not go with that here, so it could be him. We'll see.

[tkdco2]

I haven't seen the show, but I'm curious about how Tar-Miriel is going to be portrayed. I've seen a clip showing her meeting Galadriel, and she seems to be a stronger character than she actually was in the books. She was the rightful heir to the throne, but she was forced into marriage and had the throne usurped from her.

Not much is written about her, so her portrayal is open to interpretation. Was she complicit in Ar-Pharazon's schemes? Early versions had her under Sauron's thumb as much as her husband was. Did she covertly aid the Faithful, perhaps even warning Isildur about the plans to cut down the White Tree? Was she just a political prisoner?

Even her death as she tried to ascend Meneltarma is ambiguous. Did she remember the holy mountain too late, or did she just run out of time? Was she truly repentant, or did she just see the mountain as a "get out of jail free" card?

Perhaps it's because there wasn't much written about her that I find her fascinating. It will be interesting to see where the show takes her character.

[samvandenberg]

I've watched the first three episodes and found all to be awful. Surprisingly lazy writing. I was hoping for something of the quality of HBO's Game of Thrones but with less obscenity. However, the purpose of this show seems to be making sequences of visual impressions with little intellectual substance. The plot holes are so gaping they completely undermine all suspension of disbelief. I am constantly presented with illogical series of events and occurrences that don't form any internal consistency. The action sequences would better belong in an absurdist martial arts film or child's cartoon. The acting is not bad, but the snippets of dialogue these talented actors are forced to utter is epic sounding nonsense. Nothing is being done to draw the audience into a rewarding fantasy world.

What the heck really is "elves" or "eldar" anyway? They start small, but are somehow immortal, but have offspring, but can also die, even from a knife wound by a normal orc. Even this is not provided to the audience.
What the heck is "The undying lands"? Is it an island town where the "elves" are from, or a place you go on a boat where the sun eats you? Not helping the audience here either.
If your life is spared by the queen of a bustling though mythic island nation and the only condition is that you shall remain in the palace, why then was the first thing done by the person charged with guarding you is to ride horses in slow motion to the farthest distance across the island? And to a forbidden but well maintained library? And this library amazingly instantly reveals not one but two unrelated and significant plot elements?
How could wizard-man travel like a guided missile from far outside the hairfoot village to the exact location of the random table where the child thoughtlessly placed the satchel containing the stolen star-map?
It goes on and on. I won't bother.

Unlike Game of Thrones, there is just too little dialogue, exposition, and plot.


I think this is an accurate review from Entertainment Weekly:

ew.com/tv/tv-reviews/lord-of-the-rings-rings-of-power-amazon/

[Finarvyn]

Sept 2, 2022 11:10:09 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I won't be comparing this show to Tolkien's notes on the Second Age for the most part, but rather try to focus on it as a prequel to the Jackson-verse films and assume this is a parallel continuity to the books. That saves a lot of headache in discussions of such things. It's like how when you run a D&D game in Greyhawk it's not Gary's Greyhawk but your interpretation of it, right?

This is a great way to put things. What was in Tolkien's head will never match what is done on film, but maybe we can get something enjoyable out of it anyway.

Home sick, so yesterday I re-watched episodes 1-2 and watched episode 3 for the first time. My reaction is pretty much the exact opposite of samvandenberg and I think that Amazon made the series with the notion that folks would have some basic familiarity with Tolkien, either through the books or the movies. (For example, knowing that Frodo sailed "off into the West" from Return of the King explains events from Rings of Power somewhat.) Whether that is a good assumption or not, only time will tell. My wife was worried that she knew nothing about the people and events of the Second Age, yet she enjoyed the first two episodes.

In my first viewing I enjoyed the show and I think I was caught up in the fact that it was Tolkien. In my rewatch I tried to be more neutral to see if it was me being a fanboy or if I actually liked it. I think I actually like it. As I've said elsewhere, I own one of the better Tolkien libraries of anyone I know yet don't consider myself to be a "scholar" of his works. I read lots of stuff but don't have the memory to focus on the nit-picking details, so things that might bother a true Tolkien expert slide right past me.

I liked the characters. A few are familiar (Elrond and Galadriel mostly) but the new ones seem pretty well done IMO. I like the map view that @ampleframework mentioned in his post. I liked the name-drop of Morgoth and the trees and a few other details like that. I like the fact that Sauron provides motivation for some characters and plotlines. I like the scenery and costumes and ships and such. All gave me a feeling of going back to Middle-earth.

Initially I was uncertain about Galadriel, but in rewatch I'm liking the character a lot more. I need to re-read the LotR Appendices to see exactly what they had to work with, but PJ's Hobbit movies show Galadriel as strong in battle when she saves Gandalf and pushes Sauron away from him. I can see a young Galadriel with great skill with weapons and leading troops.

I'm interested in more episodes. I may re-rewatch them again.

[Deleted]

There's a lot of things I could criticise (dialogue, pacing, plot etc) but I know I'll probably keep watching.

The Orcs reaction to sunlight made my wife exclaim 'so D&D!'

Harfoots are ruthless

[Deleted]

I liked episode 3. I kind of don't think

SPOILER: Click to show

Adar is Sauron at all. It's too obvious if he is. He's a sub-lieutenant and a red herring for the audience. I believe we either haven't seen Sauron outside the flashback yet, or he's an unexpected person

.

The Harfoots are interesting. If you recall, we also saw Stoors in the PJ films, notably Smeagol and Deagol fishing in a flashback. The only proto-hobbit group that hasn't been shown on film yet would be the Fallohides.

SPOILER: Click to show

Numenor is absolutely visually stunning. Galadriel's pride was on full display but perhaps she laid it on a bit too thick there. The lore library and the realization about Sauron's symbol were worth the visit.

I believe the guy playing

SPOILER: Click to show

Elendil

is my favorite casting in the show so far. He's very likeable and noble. Halbrand is growing on me, too. I have a personal hypothesis that he'll eventually become

SPOILER: Click to show

The Witch King. He's from the right geographical location and he was a king of Men at some point. His ancestors also served Morgoth

I've also read a theory about the Meteor Man that he might turn out to be

SPOILER: Click to show

a Balrog or one of the Blue Wizards owing to his apparently superhuman origins and the runes and language he uses.

The Orcs are very-well portrayed as well I feel. These are the original non-fortified Orcs so their pallor and reaction to the sun are on point, and I love that they kept the vaguely Cockney accents of the PJ films. That Warg looked a bit funky to me, but I think it was meant to be a pup and that the Dark Lord is still experimenting a bit with breeding them. 

[makofan]

I watched Episode 1. I thought it was a mediocre, plodding generic fantasy like The Witcher or Game of Thrones, but not as good. They threw in a lot of Tolkien names and places to make it seem like they knew what they were doing.

I can't see me watching any more episodes. If I didn't know Tolkien at all, I probably would still not watch it because it was, well, crap. My entire group of MERP players concurred. Now, some above posters, who are also enlightened people, disagree with me, so I guess you need to watch epsiode 1 for yourself and decide. I mean, I didn't hate it with burning fires of Hell like Star Wars VIII, but, meh

[ThrorII]

Sept 15, 2022 20:27:25 GMT -6 makofan said:

I watched Episode 1. I thought it was a mediocre, plodding generic fantasy like The Witcher or Game of Thrones, but not as good. They threw in a lot of Tolkien names and places to make it seem like they knew what they were doing.

I can't see me watching any more episodes. If I didn't know Tolkien at all, I probably would still not watch it because it was, well, crap. My entire group of MERP players concurred. Now, some above posters, who are also enlightened people, disagree with me, so I guess you need to watch epsiode 1 for yourself and decide. I mean, I didn't hate it with burning fires of Hell like Star Wars VIII, but, meh

My wife, kids, and I watched episode 1 so far. We were not impressed, and have not turned on episode 2 or 3 yet. We might try again.

For background:

ME: I have read The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Simirillian, and HOME (History of Middle-earth); I used to read LotR yearly, for 20 years; I watch PJ's LotR yearly, and while minorly flawed, is amazing; I didn't like PJs Hobbit.

The KIDS: I have read The Hobbit to my kids (now age 13 & 15) and LotR once; They watch PJs LotRs yearly, upon their request; My boy (13) is audio book reading LotR right now. My boy likes PJs Hobbit, my daughter not so much.

The WIFE: She has never read the books; She likes PJs LotR, but prefers to watch every 2-3 years; She's fine with The Hobbit as well.

We all loved The Witcher (which we only discovered this year?!?) and were hooked from episode 1. We binged both seasons in 2 weeks.

RoP just seems pondering and directionless. My daughter thinks it is ridiculous that nearly every important character is female. The writers don't seem to have a good grasp of Tolkien's mythology, or just don't care. The dialog is weak.

After Ep 1, I told them about the real 1st and 2nd ages, about Galadriel's part in the Kinslaying. They felt that would have given the TV character more depth, weight, and flaws.

[geoffrey]

If it ever comes out on DVD at my local library, I will check it out.

Otherwise, I'll never watch it. I can't ever see myself paying to watch TV--any TV.

[Deleted]

Sept 16, 2022 10:17:01 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

If it ever comes out on DVD at my local library, I will check it out.

Otherwise, I'll never watch it. I can't ever see myself paying to watch TV--any TV.

You don't pay for Amazon Prime to watch tv. You pay for Amazon Prime so that you get free shipping on the boxes that Amazon employees apparently play soccer with before they toss on your doorstep and run away. The tv shows come with that service for free. 

[Deleted]

Episode 4 moved along the story threads nicely except for

SPOILER: Click to show

the Stranger and Harfoots didn't appear at all, which I found disappointing.

We're kind of seeing this show's timeline-compressed version of

SPOILER: Click to show

Numenor coming to the aid of the Men of Middle-Earth

although Galadriel's involvement in all that and how she's being used is still my most "iffy" aspect of this show. 

Elrond and Durin's friendship continues to be developed. As for the contents of the box,

SPOILER: Click to show

Mithril does make the most sense, because we're literally in the mines of Moria and we all know the story there. I wasn't surprised at all when that turned out to be the case. The Dwarven prayer and all the references to Aule and the Valar in general in this show are refreshing.

As for the Southlands sub-plot,

SPOILER: Click to show

I still somewhat feel like the Adar figure we're meant to assume Sauron is not in fact Sauron. This episode made him seem much more like Sauron, which is exactly what the show would do if he weren't, I feel. Or maybe I've grown so accustomed to having my expectations subverted that I'm overthinking it.

[tdenmark]

Sept 16, 2022 17:49:27 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

You pay for Amazon Prime so that you get free shipping on the boxes that Amazon employees apparently play soccer with before they toss on your doorstep and run away.

Lol, no doubt! I had a friend who worked at the postal service, he said if a box was marked Fragile they'd intentionally throw it across the room and play catch with it.

[tdenmark]

Remember how you went to see Fellowship of the Ring at the theater with apprehension about how badly they'd mangle the story and characters, and came out pleasantly surprised at how good it was?

Yeah, Rings of Power is the opposite of that.