Sauron lives?

[Deleted]

Split from Adventuring in Mordor after Sauron's defeat? thread.


Look, I'm by no means specialist in Middle Earth.
I've had read only the books 1 and less than half the book 2 of LotR, and I've read The Hobbit. That's all.

I didn't read The Silmarillion or any other books that could gave me deeper understanding of Middle Earth and the Tolkien Settings.

But, my understanding based on what I've read is that although Sauron was defeated, he wasn't necessarily destroyed.
I've talked about it before but the guys that (supposedly) have deep understanding about Tolkien's work have said that's not the case and once the ring was destroyed, Sauron was destroyed. I can't see how those experts can be right though, because what is written in the few pages I've read, points to something else.

Look, that's on Chapter 1 on the Fellowship book: (I don't know which page though because I don't have the books with me anymore, and I just searched it on a plain text file)

'The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defences, and cover all the lands in a second darkness. He lacks the One Ring.
'The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him, and his hand never touched them or sullied them. Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. Nine he gave to Mortal Men, proud and great, and so ensnared them. Long ago they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths, shadows under his great Shadow, his most terrible servants. Long ago. It is many a year since the Nine walked abroad. Yet who knows? As the Shadow grows once more, they too may walk again. But come! We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
'So it is now: the Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. But that no longer troubles him. He only needs the One; for he made that Ring himself, it is his, and he let a great part of his own former power pass into it, so that he could rule all the others. If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever.
'And this is the dreadful chance, Frodo. He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has _not_ perished, that it has been found. So he is seeking it, seeking it, and all his thought is bent on it. It is his great hope and our great fear.'
'Why, why wasn't it destroyed?' cried Frodo. 'And how did the Enemy ever come to lose it, if he was so strong, and it was so precious to him?' He clutched the Ring in his hand, as if he saw already dark fingers stretching out to seize it.
'It was taken from him,' said Gandalf. 'The strength of the Elves to resist him was greater long ago; and not all Men were estranged from them. The Men of Westernesse came to their aid. That is a chapter of ancient history which it might be good to recall; for there was sorrow then too, and gathering dark, but great valour, and great deeds that were not wholly vain. One day, perhaps, I will tell you all the tale, or you shall hear it told in full by one who knows it best.
'But for the moment, since most of all you need to know how this thing came to you, and that will be tale enough, this is all that I will say. It was Gil-galad, Elven-king and Elendil of Westernesse who overthrew Sauron, though they themselves perished in the deed; and Isildur Elendil's son cut the Ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own. Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years, until his shadow took shape again in Mirkwood.

Let me quote again some things:

'The Enemy still lacks one thing to give him strength and knowledge to beat down all resistance, break the last defences, and cover all the lands in a second darkness. He lacks the One Ring.

The One Ring apparently would give Sauron MORE power and knowledge, doesn't mean he didn't had it without the One Ring.

He believed that the One had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done. But he knows now that it has _not_ perished, that it has been found.

Sauron himself believed the One Ring was destroyed, this means that he CAN live without the One Ring. Or else this passage wouldn't makes sense, if the One Ring was destroyed as he believed, how could he "be" to believe or not in something for starters? Sauron is not the One Ring, and the One Ring is not Sauron.

Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years, until his shadow took shape again in Mirkwood.

Sauron was once "defeated thoroughly" (vanquished), still "his spirit fled", and he lived.
Gandalf died fighting Durin's Bane... Even on the Wikipedia entry for Balrogs It's said that "Gandalf himself died shortly afterwards, but he returned to Middle-earth with greater powers, as Gandalf the White".
In the Maiar wikipedia entry also confirms that Maiar can die and come back.

So, even though the One Ring was destroyed, Sauron being a Maiar, he can yet come back. Even if he can't have yet again a body because the ring was destroyed (that's unclear though), he's spirt can still come back. That's my understanding and interpretation based on what is written, as I've quoted, and based on what is written on the Wikipedia entry for Balrog and Maiar.

So, you can for sure have adventures on Mordor after the ring's destruction, because not only as you've said the corruption still in there, but Sauron's spirit or even maybe Sauron himself can/could have come back to influence Mordor.

Again, specialists on Middle Earth and Tolkien's work sometimes will show up to refute this interpretation, but personally I don't care, that's what is written and you can create your own "Canon" by not selecting any works that supposedly would refute what is written in The Fellowship of The Ring. 

[Falconer]

When Gandalf dies, he says (TT, p. 106): “Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked I was sent back…” And later he says (p. 189): “I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death.”


Upon the destruction of the Ring, Sam has a vision of Barad-dûr’s collapse (RK, p. 224): “A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble, rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled.”

And then (p. 226): “But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor’s shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower; and even at that moment all the hosts of Mordor trembled, doubt clutched their hearts, their laughter failed, their hands shook and their limbs were loosed. The Power that drove them on and filled them with hate and fury was wavering, its will was removed from them…”

And finally (p. 227): “And as the captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.”


Something similar happens after Saruman’s throat is slit by Wormtongue (RK, p. 300): “To the dismay of those that stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.”


So I don’t think you can escape the conclusion that all three died and only one was sent back. By death we mean death of the body; of course the spirit is immortal, but what of that? The same is true for Elves and Men.

When Sauron died in the past, it took him millennia to reshape a body, and that was only because the Ring was not destroyed (it’s not coincidental that he coalesced in Dol Guldur, quite near the Ring’s resting place in the Anduin).


Well, back to the OP, I am not sure how interesting it would be to adventure in Mordor after the destruction of the Ring. Not only Barad-dûr but also the Towers of the Teeth fell down (p. 227), and so presumably every structure built by Sauron. All that would be left might be some Gondorian towers. I think clearing Minas Morgul might be kind of interesting.

[Deleted]

Jan 18, 2022 12:48:35 GMT -6 Falconer said:

So I don’t think you can escape the conclusion that all three died and only one was sent back. By death we mean death of the body; of course the spirit is immortal, but what of that? The same is true for Elves and Men.

When Sauron died in the past, it took him millennia to reshape a body, and that was only because the Ring was not destroyed (it’s not coincidental that he coalesced in Dol Guldur, quite near the Ring’s resting place in the Anduin).

I honestly fail to see how this can be an unescapable conclusion, but again I couldn't finish the books nor did I read any other works, and I'm not an authority on Tolkien and Middle Earth.

As you've said, Sauron died in the past and took a millennia to reshape a body, contradicting the previous conclusion that three died and only one was sent back. We could conclude based on these (your very own) assumptions that three died and two of them was sent back, each of them once.
I don't think it's possible to conclude that Sauron returned "only because the Ring", as Sauron himself thought the Ring was destroyed.

Let's ignore the fact that Sauron returned as well (because of the Ring or not), and focus on Gandalf.
Why did Gandalf returned? Could we consider that it happened because Eru Ilúvatar (or maybe a Valar) allowed him to? Let's say, to finish his task?
Then, why wouldn't Eru Ilúvatar allow Sauron to return?

Eru isn't depicted as a "Good god" as far as I know, he's the creator, and that's it.
Good and Evil are subjective specially considering in a cosmic point of view, and if Eru is the type of deity that looks after "balance", it may decide that Middle Earth is corrupted and allow Sauron or other "evil spirit" to bring balance again.

(Remember how Anakin did bring balance to the Force by going Dark Side, the Force isn't supposed to be "Good" only, but balanced... That's quite an "off comparison" between two complete different fiction but just to make a point about how could Sauron "bring balance" to the world in Middle Earth as well)

Now, going back to "sources", mine unfortunately is the lotr wiki and not as direct from the source as yours, but:

(...) And yet, even fallen Maiar retain their immortality. From all indications, when the physical body of a Maia is destroyed, their spirit wanders houseless and their power diminished until they may take a physical form once more, or are restored by their respective Valar. Examples of this can be seen in the threat of Lúthien to Sauron upon his defeat at the Tower of Werewolves, whereby it is said:

"Ere [Sauron's] spirit left its dark house, Luthien came to him and that he should be stripped of his raiment of flesh, and his ghost sent quaking back to Morgoth; and she said 'There everlastingly thy naked self shall endure the torment of his scorn, pierced by his eyes, unless thou yield to me the mastery of thy tower.'"

So, it's not the first time that Sauron dies either, as the great wolf Huan have defeated him before with the help of Luthien (or Luthien with the help of the wolf).

So I would say to OP, you can consider that other evil spirits, or Sauron himself, might be wandering through Mordor and spreading corruption again to justify your Mordor campaign, it would work for me, sounds a cool game. Defeat Sauron once again, sounds nice.

Any tower or settlement that could have been destroyed can be rise again, not a problem for my Mordor guys. 
And you could consider, if not Sauron, to bring Saruman back... If we consider the "sources" and the interpretations that Maiar do are immortal and can go back, Saruman can as well.

You can consider Balrogs or Dragons to influence Mordor as well.
Just like Smaug had a great influence in Erebor and all the region, a dragon in Mordor could bring great changes as well, such as spreading corruption and fear.
Remember that Balrogs are also Maiar, and as such, they're just immortal as well... You can bring back Durin's Bane and it would not be against the sources as far as I can see and understand the Settings, as quoted from the Wiki as well.

If we detach ourselves from the point of view of the "heroes", we could consider that Saruman might have noticed or understood something in order to become a Sauron ally. Maybe it was only for power? Maybe. But maybe not.
I consider the story being very biased towards Manwë and the "good" point of view. It doesn't take into account the corruption of mankind and other races.
Sauron tyranny could easily be some kind of punishment for Middle Earth, just as the Great Flood myth. Again, "good and evil" is something very subjective on a cosmic point of view.

[Falconer]

Jan 18, 2022 13:44:30 GMT -6 @jacksonbenete said:

I couldn't finish the books nor did I read any other works, and I'm not an authority on Tolkien and Middle Earth.

Quite.

[Deleted]

Jan 18, 2022 15:12:04 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Jan 18, 2022 13:44:30 GMT -6 @jacksonbenete said:

I couldn't finish the books nor did I read any other works, and I'm not an authority on Tolkien and Middle Earth.

Quite.

Sorry?

[Falconer]

I’ve never seen so many willfully ignorant opinions on Tolkien collected in a single place. Especially in light of your confrontational attitude (throwing down the gauntlet to “specialists”), I have to conclude it is not innocent ignorance but rather intentional flame-bait.

[flightcommander]

I'm just going to parachute into this thread right here and remark that I am saddened by the tone it has taken. As a long-standing member of this discussion board, I absolutely appreciate the contributions of both veteran member Falconer and somewhat newcomer @jacksonbenete in all of their posts.

I think the original question by tkdco2 is interesting even (or especially!) for those of us less versed in Tolkien's fiction. I for one enjoy reading others' takes on the Tolkien canon, both for enlightenment and inspiration.

I do not, however, enjoy witnessing strife over it — especially in such a potentially fruitful thread.

[doublejig2]

Just made it back from Paizo forums where I posted about my book. I was descended upon by ferocious bots who demanded I recant. Well, I left in a huff and won't be posting there in the future. This forum has been different. I hope it remains so.

[tkdco2]

Please guys, let's keep it civil.

In the timeframe of the campaign, Sauron has just been defeated and won't be coming back any time soon, if at all. So we won't need to worry about him. But lesser Maiar may exist. Shelob may yet live, if she didn't die from the wounds Samwise dealt. Petty warlords (probably Uruk-hai, Black Numenoreans, or Easterlings) may be trying to gain control of the remnants of the Mordor forces.

And what about the Blue Wizards? Were they corrupted? Perhaps one or both would try to become the next Dark Lord.

[Deleted]

OP talked about Mordor, which was a place were Sauron used to have influence and spread corruption.
It gave me the idea to have Sauron influence on the place all over again, supported by the fact that they're all immortals and that Sauron doesn't need the Ring to live.

As I've said I had a similar discussion about it before but people in other forums that call themselves specialists because the read all Tolkien works multiple times put my ideas down, and not in a nice way.
So I was careful this time to say that I did read only a few works and I'm not a specialist at all, to avoid being humiliated by guys that do have read all the works like they did to me before, but I'm only someone that had some ideas and conclusions based on some quotes of the texts I've read, and on the information I've found on wiki (and not directly on sources), and that I failed to see based on what was said, how it would be true that Sauron died if the sources says he's immortal.

I don't know where the tone turned supposedly confrontational, maybe when Falconer said "we can't escape the conclusion" and I said that we can't conclude that because his own affirmations and assumptions refute the conclusion by contradiction.
I should say that a "we can't escape the conclusion" is not a nice tone as well, as it implies "I'm right and you're wrong, we can't escape the conclusion, so shut up"... I didn't took it as offence though, and worked to support my idea based on the contradiction, and the fact that Sauron have died multiple times.

As I understand about a conversation, for me, is just normal to use logic to show a contradiction.
Is it confrontational? Maybe in the point of the view of a discussion "that's a contradiction, let's wait for more information to reason about the topic again", now, it's confrontational in the sense that I want to attack someone else opinions, like Falconer said about an intentional flame-bait? No.
I'm ignorant? Yes. In a lot of topics. I'm even very ignorant even about Chemistry and Software Engineering that are the two things I've devoted myself into, let alone Tolkien that I like a lot but couldn't read it very much.
I'm willfully ignorante? I'm not sure what this means as I never heard the expression before, but I would not discard that as I can be quite dumb and clueless because of my English skills.
Now if it means what I think it means, that I'm being stubborn on purpose like shirt talking, then no. That's dialectic as I understand it, both showing disagreement and further discussing until we can reach agreement or in the context of a forum about a game and fiction, until we can get nice ideas to use on our games.

If someone take offence about other person pointing a contradiction, it's out of my control. When someone writes a text you can just read it in the tone you want.

You can see that I kept offering ideas about the campaign, based on what was written about Maiar on the wiki. You could use a Balrog or other Maiar, and you could use the conception of bring balance to mankind corruption for justifying Mordor rising again.
If I was to attack someone by my post, I guess I would be focused on ofences and defenses and wouldn't continue trying to linking my ideas to the topic in hand, which is adventures in Mordor.

Now, to be honest, I've noticed that the forum sometimes is not very open to newcomers. I'm constantly seeing the old members supporting each other but sometimes I see the contributions of the new members not receiving any replies.
Maybe because the new generation think differently and it's a natural filter going on.
But maybe because guys are used to each other for the longer years together and really aren't very welcoming to new people trying to sit on the table.
Who knows?

I don't have social media, and although I still didn't deleted my reddit, I barely use it nowadays because it's so hard to discuss anything without flame wars going on.
I'm really pleased about this forum and I keep coming back exactly because the old member treat each other so nicely, so you just expect that you would be able to hang out as well.
But is not the first time that I post something that is considered confrontational.
So I can't help but to suspect that the problem is with me, of course.

What I understand about dialog and dialectic.
Not all "I don't agree" is an attack, but not everyone accepts a disagreement as an opportunity to exchange more ideas.
Maybe it's about all the feeling we're having about politics outside the forum. We have a pandemic going on, people taking sides on politics and arguing and getting confrontational all the time.
For me a disagreement is an opportunity to research about something, when Falconer posted about his conclusions it makes me take a second researching about the topic, I discovered the lotr wiki and read more about Maiar, and discovered about the story of Luthien defeating Sauron. I knew who Luthien was but I didn't knew that Sauron was defeated back then and I was quite amazed that Sauron turned into a Werewolf during the combat.
Reading that all Maiar is immortal gave me the idea about the Balrog (that is also a Maiar) to come back and influence places as well.
So you disagreement gave me fuel to research more and gave me more ideas.
My disagreement made you get offended.
Again, it's out of my control, and if you think I was flaming or being rude or ignorant, I ask you sorry.

I have to say though that this kind of proudness in a discussion is quite frustrating, if every time I'm going to reply I have to wait for someone taking it as offense, then the forum suddenly turns to be a place not suited to discussion at all, like reddit /osr and other forums.

As much as I like to come here trying to contribute and also to steal other people ideas for my own house rules xD, I don't think I had contributed much at all, and if my posts are causing trouble you can just say and I'll delete my account.

[Falconer]

I am not “offended.” It is my job as a moderator here to keep an eye out for trollish behavior. I am experienced in seeing the red flags. These were pretty blatant, in my judgment:

1. I haven’t read the books.
2. My ideas are based on a wiki and the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy.
3. I have gotten into heated arguments about this on a hundred Tolkien forums.
4. Knowledgeable Tolkien fans disagree with me, but I don’t care.

Long-time contributors here receive the benefit of the doubt, not only for their volume of creative content, but also from the fact that we can be relatively certain they are real people and not sock puppets, and that they are here primarily to contribute and not to disrupt.

Jack, please review the Rules of the board and consider yourself warned.