Are there any Pathfinder 1e grognards?

[Deleted]

I've been pondering this ever since Pathfinder 2e was first announced a while back. (It's been a year or two now, hasn't it?) I recall that Pathfinder was initially one of several reactions against the D&D 4e rules, in that many fans of 3.5 felt D&D as they were currently playing it was just fine and didn't need revision. This follows a similar mentality to the OSR, but with a fondness for a different era and play style. One thing I haven't heard much about is whether there was any significant pushback to Pathfinder 2e. Surely, plenty of Pathfinder players would have preferred to continue playing Pathfinder the way they understood it, especially with up to hundreds of dollars invested into core books and adventures over the years, right? So, is there any movement to play "1e only" or to clone Pathfinder 1e? Or are Pathfinder players more willing to go along with the official revisions than D&D players are? I'm curious. I don't post a lot in those circles so I may have missed a movement but I haven't heard of one. 

[jeffb]

OMG. I would never recommend anyone go there, but the Paizo forums and community are largely in the same place 4E and 3E was in 2008-2009. It was pretty brutal there the few times I was researching PF2.

[doublejig2]

And so in brutality did Pathfinder 2e doth slay Pathfinder 1e and relegate the 1e survivors into future forum irrelevance? If so then yikes. Yet, if I was pathfinder 2e guy, then I'd also add, eureka!
But such is not the case for me. Instead, I try to avoid all things Paizo Publishing! Too heavy (i.e., D&D 3.75) and perhaps claustrophobic for any take of mine.

[aramis]

I know there are some who prefer PF1 over PF2, and many who prefer PF2 over PF1, but most don't hold such positions don't qualify as grognards ...
... they're not retired veterans pregnant doging and moaning about the kids having no respect for their sacrifices. Nor, largely, are they greybeards.

[Deleted]

There should realistically be some 3e/PF players at least in their forties by now, assuming they were adult players when 3e came out. It's possible for someone of that age to have grey hairs and be opinionated and set in their ways, so I would call that a type of grognard in the making.

[jeffb]

I'd say there are far more 1E holdouts, than 2E adopters- which was what I was getting at with the 3E/4E crowd bit.

AFAICT the 1E holdouts are (more often than not) vehemently opposed to 2E.

I enjoyed the 1E Beginner Box rules. And several of the early modules and early world materials. And that's about it.

PF2E has some great rules changes, but it's kind of like 4E. While it streamlined many elements of gameplay, they sheer amount of stuff on your character sheet is greater.

[Deleted]

So is Paizo still supporting 1e in any way or is it pretty much out of print? I'm just wondering where this particular schism is headed, since there apparently is one.

[jeffb]

Oct 22, 2021 16:54:23 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

So is Paizo still supporting 1e in any way or is it pretty much out of print? I'm just wondering where this particular schism is headed, since there apparently is one.

They are only printing softcover, digest sized prints of the major 1E rulebooks and bestiaries...as long as there is demand. Being that most of them are very high page count and small font to begin as full size books, they can be a tough read/reference. Last time I looked, the original 1E hardcovers were going for nearly the same money as the new 2E books.

Of course everything is still available on PDF.

I'd highly recommend the 1E Beginners Box if you can find- it's like the Moldvay set for PF and in several (good) ways simplified from the core rules.

[Deleted]

I do hear good things about that starter set. I think I'm done buying new editions and variations of D&D or d20, personally. I will likely stick with variations of 0e and fkr for my own campaigns. Got some great ideas from the Tony Bath book I read.

This topic does fascinate me, though, because I can imagine this parallel subculture that has the same starting point as the osr but which shades in a different direction. Pretty much a repeating consequence whenever the core rules of D&D get revised. Edition Wars spawn competition. I just wonder how long it will be before some enterprising person or group gives PF 1e the OSRIC treatment. Theoretically the OGL makes it possible.

[jeffb]

@ampleframework

Actually I do believe there is already a clone or OGL variant meant to keep the old edition going. It's called Corefinder and is in development by Legendary Games (one of the better PF1E 3PP who like many, is not happy with PF2E) Website is a mess but here is a link

Corefinder development page

Also Paizo recently pulled a DMs Guild and opened up the game and setting on DriveThru. They have taken a huge hit with D&D 5E, and the lackluster adoption of PF2E.

[Deleted]

I like that name. Corefinder. Implies it's the core experience and the new one is a deviation. I fully expect to see something similar when D&D 5.5 comes out for the original 5e core books. I have doubts that the revision will truly be backwards compatible in a way that satisfies all parties.

[bobjester0e]

Both PF1e & PF2e are too fiddly for me, yet I was intrigued by Starfinder and picked up the core rulebook and the Starfinder Beginner Box. I might have found a player from work willing to give it a try though, and he lives in town..

[Deleted]

Oct 23, 2021 13:43:19 GMT -6 bobjester0e said:

Both PF1e & PF2e are too fiddly for me, yet I was intrigued by Starfinder and picked up the core rulebook and the Starfinder Beginner Box. I might have found a player from work willing to give it a try though, and he lives in town..

My hangup is that SF seems more science fantasy than sci Fi, and if I'm gonna play that I'd rather go with Star Wars since it's a world I know well. For straight up sci fi, there's systems that I find more appealing. I'm finally dipping into Traveller a bit over Discord and enjoy that so far. It's been the steady pure sci Fi choice since the seventies and there's still an active community. For me, it scratches the itch. I see the appeal of Starfinder for some people. Just maybe not for me personally.

[asaki]

One of my friends bought PF 2e and wasn't very happy with it.

Oct 23, 2021 6:37:16 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I just wonder how long it will be before some enterprising person or group gives PF 1e the OSRIC treatment. Theoretically the OGL makes it possible.

I thought PF was already an OGL version of D&D 3.x?
When we played it, I don't think anyone bought books, we all just used the SRD.

[jeffb]

Oct 23, 2021 15:54:17 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Oct 23, 2021 13:43:19 GMT -6 bobjester0e said:

Both PF1e & PF2e are too fiddly for me, yet I was intrigued by Starfinder and picked up the core rulebook and the Starfinder Beginner Box. I might have found a player from work willing to give it a try though, and he lives in town..

My hangup is that SF seems more science fantasy than sci Fi, and if I'm gonna play that I'd rather go with Star Wars since it's a world I know well.

Interesting take because from what I've read through, the setting of Starfinder is vastly different than Star Wars. It's actually D&D in space. There are planets of undead, actual spellcasting/casters, orcs, etc. I just cannot get past the system-in particular- the "magic item xmas tree" problem that plagues D&D 3x/PF- SF characters are reliant on ever more powerful gear/equipment/weapons. And adding in all that tech/missile weapons just makes it even more fiddly than standard PF even though they cleaned up some other rules. But the setting I think is very clever. if I could get a StarFinder Setting guide without a bunch of rules, I'd totally buy that.

On a similar note- The adventure book Will Wheaton did for Fantasy Age is super cool and worth checking out. Name escapes me at the moment- Very influenced by Thundar the Barbarian and such , and almost no rules- just a couple pages of additions to the f*gE basic rules.

[Deleted]

Oct 23, 2021 18:27:56 GMT -6 asaki said:

One of my friends bought PF 2e and wasn't very happy with it.

Oct 23, 2021 6:37:16 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

I just wonder how long it will be before some enterprising person or group gives PF 1e the OSRIC treatment. Theoretically the OGL makes it possible.

I thought PF was already an OGL version of D&D 3.x?
When we played it, I don't think anyone bought books, we all just used the SRD.

Yeah, my point is that the reaction to 2e could easily lead to another offshoot, which it apparently already has. Since PF is derived from the OGL, it can also be legally cloned. 

[Deleted]

Oct 23, 2021 20:26:31 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Oct 23, 2021 15:54:17 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

My hangup is that SF seems more science fantasy than sci Fi, and if I'm gonna play that I'd rather go with Star Wars since it's a world I know well.

Interesting take because from what I've read through, the setting of Starfinder is vastly different than Star Wars. It's actually D&D in space. There are planets of undead, actual spellcasting/casters, orcs, etc. I just cannot get past the system-in particular- the "magic item xmas tree" problem that plagues D&D 3x/PF- SF characters are reliant on ever more powerful gear/equipment/weapons. And adding in all that tech/missile weapons just makes it even more fiddly than standard PF even though they cleaned up some other rules. But the setting I think is very clever. if I could get a StarFinder Setting guide without a bunch of rules, I'd totally buy that.

On a similar note- The adventure book Will Wheaton did for Fantasy Age is super cool and worth checking out. Name escapes me at the moment- Very influenced by Thundar the Barbarian and such , and almost no rules- just a couple pages of additions to the f*gE basic rules.

My point may have not come across well, but for me, personally, I like the Star Wars style Science Fantasy. That particular blend with those tropes. This is a little too much "D&D in space" and you can already do D&D adventures in space without needing a new rules set easily enough. 

[jeffb]

Oct 24, 2021 6:14:23 GMT -6 @ampleframework said:

Oct 23, 2021 20:26:31 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Interesting take because from what I've read through, the setting of Starfinder is vastly different than Star Wars. It's actually D&D in space. There are planets of undead, actual spellcasting/casters, orcs, etc. I just cannot get past the system-in particular- the "magic item xmas tree" problem that plagues D&D 3x/PF- SF characters are reliant on ever more powerful gear/equipment/weapons. And adding in all that tech/missile weapons just makes it even more fiddly than standard PF even though they cleaned up some other rules. But the setting I think is very clever. if I could get a StarFinder Setting guide without a bunch of rules, I'd totally buy that.

On a similar note- The adventure book Will Wheaton did for Fantasy Age is super cool and worth checking out. Name escapes me at the moment- Very influenced by Thundar the Barbarian and such , and almost no rules- just a couple pages of additions to the f*gE basic rules.

My point may have not come across well, but for me, personally, I like the Star Wars style Science Fantasy. That particular blend with those tropes. This is a little too much "D&D in space" and you can already do D&D adventures in space without needing a new rules set easily enough. 

Gotcha. I misunderstood.

I like WhiteStar (original) if I'm going for OD&D rules in space. It works for Star Wars, or Starfinder type games. Yeah, it's easy enough to just make up some stuff and use whatever, but Whitestar does everything so well in a super concise and simple package (again, the original, unsure about later versions).

DTRPG link to WS version I'm talking about

[hamurai]

Yeah, White Star is definitely worth taking a look at!