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Post by plethon on Oct 8, 2021 11:04:14 GMT -6
The Gems table in M&T is quite barebones, a mere indication of potential gem values in GP with no mention of gem types or any other details. This fact has got me thinking about the history of Gems in the early days and how DMs used this table and what sorts of other details they would throw in, things like type, color, size, etc. Is this something worth discussing?
My favorite gems table from any edition is the RC one, and I would probably use this as a basis in an OD&D game. I'm a fan of giving out detailed gems with varying quality and size, especially in the deeper levels of the dungeon to offset some of the tedium of coin-horde transport logistics. Not that I think transporting massive coin hordes has no place in the game, but not every session should become bogged down in it. It can also offer a choice to players when faced with a huge horde of mixed treasure: take the gems and get out, or stay a while and try to move some or all of the coins as well.
I also allow players to simply use gems in place of currency when buying big ticket items, and treat some of the lesser gems as a currency in their own right. And certain very large and very valuable gems could even be famous named gems with their own stories behind them.
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Post by talysman on Oct 8, 2021 12:38:47 GMT -6
I know AD&D 1e had a gem type table, but without digging out the DMG and looking it up, what I recall was that this was an optional table unconnected to the size/value table, which more or less resembled the OD&D table. I used the optional AD&D table a few times, but stopped for a couple reasons: - Lack of Knowledge. Outside of the Big Four that everyone knows (emerald, ruby, sapphire, diamond,) I really know very little about gems: which ones are what color, degree of transparency, classification as precious/semi-precious/common, and so on. And I feel a lot of other people are the same, only it's worse because I might know what a moonstone looks like but don't know if all my players do.
- Lack of Fixed Values. Not only do I not know which lesser gems are considered more valuable than others, from what I can glean, it's all pretty arbitrary and changes over time or from culture to culture. I mean, diamonds are pretty common, but they are currently considered the most valuable, for a combination of subjective cultural trends and restrictive trade practices.
- Lack of Focus. Recording different gems names would take up a lot of extra space in a dungeon key and leads to the question: do the players have to track it, too? Do you have to track which gems the players are selling? If they don't sell their sapphires for three or four adventures, collecting sapphires from multiple dungeons, do you have to go back to your notes for all those dungeons? And when stocking the dungeon, what if you want the gem type to follow the theme of the dungeon, like "only red and yellow gems in this fire-theme dungeon"? Or "only transparent gems in this dungeon that includes a puzzle where players shine light through specific color gems"?
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Post by tetramorph on Oct 8, 2021 15:06:45 GMT -6
I give it a 1:3 chance that the stone is precious. If so I roll: 1. diamond 2. sapphire 3. ruby 4. pearl 5. emerald 6. opal Otherwise it is semiprecious. I have a d20 table for that (I will spare you). I mark 100gp precious gems as "medium" in size, semiprecious as "large." I adjust size up or down from there. That gives more than enough variety of description for me and my players, agreeing with talysman's points, above.
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Post by talysman on Oct 8, 2021 19:02:07 GMT -6
I give it a 1:3 chance that the stone is precious. If so I roll: 1. diamond 2. sapphire 3. ruby 4. pearl 5. emerald 6. opal Otherwise it is semiprecious. I have a d20 table for that (I will spare you). I mark 100gp precious gems as "medium" in size, semiprecious as "large." I adjust size up or down from there. That gives more than enough variety of description for me and my players, agreeing with talysman 's points, above. I've got the vaguest idea of a way to handle gem types that would address the issues I raised, which I might have to develop at some point. The basic approach is to assume that no dungeon will have more than (let's say) four non-unique gem types and either roll or pick those types, which are defined by color and descriptor (opaque, translucent, transparent.) Either roll or pick the types found in the dungeon as a whole beforehand. Each container in a treasure find will select from the pool of predetermined types, which the GM can describe as "a mix of red, green, and blue gems", for example. Players have to examine each stone to get the full details, and say they are counting them to get the exact amounts. Gem names aren't used unless assessed by a professional jeweler (or PC with that skill,) and exact values are assigned during the assessment. Other than the best-known gem names (like those in your d6 table) and whichever real-world gem names the GM feels comfortable with, all gem names will be made up for the GM's world. Things like "sablestone" or "flamespeck", for example. Unique gems -- those with histories, magic properties would be manually placed, just like special magic items and treasures.
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Post by Desparil on Oct 8, 2021 21:56:04 GMT -6
I know AD&D 1e had a gem type table, but without digging out the DMG and looking it up, what I recall was that this was an optional table unconnected to the size/value table, which more or less resembled the OD&D table. I used the optional AD&D table a few times, but stopped for a couple reasons: - Lack of Knowledge. Outside of the Big Four that everyone knows (emerald, ruby, sapphire, diamond,) I really know very little about gems: which ones are what color, degree of transparency, classification as precious/semi-precious/common, and so on. And I feel a lot of other people are the same, only it's worse because I might know what a moonstone looks like but don't know if all my players do.
- Lack of Fixed Values. Not only do I not know which lesser gems are considered more valuable than others, from what I can glean, it's all pretty arbitrary and changes over time or from culture to culture. I mean, diamonds are pretty common, but they are currently considered the most valuable, for a combination of subjective cultural trends and restrictive trade practices.
- Lack of Focus. Recording different gems names would take up a lot of extra space in a dungeon key and leads to the question: do the players have to track it, too? Do you have to track which gems the players are selling? If they don't sell their sapphires for three or four adventures, collecting sapphires from multiple dungeons, do you have to go back to your notes for all those dungeons? And when stocking the dungeon, what if you want the gem type to follow the theme of the dungeon, like "only red and yellow gems in this fire-theme dungeon"? Or "only transparent gems in this dungeon that includes a puzzle where players shine light through specific color gems"?
For AD&D, the gem value variations are presented as optional, but the gem types aren't actually a table that you roll on. You're then expected to peruse the following list of gem varieties, sorted by base value, and assign specific gem types. Not all that different from Rules Cyclopedia, except that Gary Gygax provides more options and is generally more verbose so the information can't fit into the size/value table. Of course, it also matters a lot more in AD&D with the introduction of material components for spells, with certain spells calling for specific gems or gem dust. Often diamonds, which I suppose also helps with your second point about lack of fixed values; if gems have a practical use for spell casting then their value is a lot less subjective. And of course, it feeds directly into your third point since the AD&D table is very specific about color and which gems are transparent, translucent, or opaque. So like many things, if you want those extra details in your game then AD&D has your back, but the Basic game has what you're looking for if your only interest in them is to serve as coin-substitutes when the PCs are so high-level and wealthy that even carrying platinum is no longer feasible for encumbrance reasons.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Oct 9, 2021 6:29:41 GMT -6
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Post by Finarvyn on Oct 9, 2021 17:51:47 GMT -6
I think that Judges' Guild put together a decent table for gems in their Thunderhold booklet. Reprinted in the Ready Ref Sheets, I think. Otherwise, my group was never as interested in the type of gems as they were in the GP value. I've always felt like the value of the gem in the table was bogus, anyway, since they had to sell the gems to do much with them. Imagine going to a local tavern with a 1,000 GP gem and hoping to get change back...
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Post by doublejig2 on Oct 9, 2021 19:48:57 GMT -6
I think that Judges' Guild put together a decent table for gems in their Thunderhold booklet. Reprinted in the Ready Ref Sheets, I think. Otherwise, my group was never as interested in the type of gems as they were in the GP value. I've always felt like the value of the gem in the table was bogus, anyway, since they had to sell the gems to do much with them. Imagine going to a local tavern with a 1,000 GP gem and hoping to get change back... Sacks full of fist sized gems have to be emptied somewhere... LOL!
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Post by Zenopus on Oct 9, 2021 21:48:01 GMT -6
No table is complete without Chalcedony, Chrysoberyl, Peridot, Sardonyx and Tourmaline.
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Post by geoffrey on Oct 9, 2021 22:09:02 GMT -6
If I can't have jade (whether nephrite or jadeite), life isn't worth living.
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Post by tacojohn4547 on Oct 29, 2021 13:02:37 GMT -6
Rob Kuntz wrote an article that appeared in an early issue of Dragon magazine, dealing with magical properties of gems. I don’t recall the issue #, but it was a decent supplement to what Gary included in the DMG.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Oct 29, 2021 17:23:04 GMT -6
I think the question isn't about all the varieties of gems, their colors, sizes, and characteristics. Most gems come in most colors ironically. Instead, I think this is about the game mechanics relating to gemstones and their use in the game.
I think they are largely high end currency. 10gp, 50gp, 100gp, 250gp, and so on. The point is carrying capacity. And the their relative size and mass is that 1/10th lb coin.
I suggest breaking these apart into 2 categories: 10gp "precious stones" per 1/10th lb regardless of actual size. And true "gemstones" with a Common List which all the players are told. Character Knowledge if you will.
The 2nd category is for white diamonds, red rubies, green emeralds, yellow topaz, blue sapphires, purple amethysts and the like. Even black onyx and blue-green turquoise. A DM can make their own short list and a simple little value system for these according to size and type and then when you describe them the players can begin to recognize their value and feel properly motivated.
Or just always tell the players the GP value of gems, which is common DM practice. Then when you put in a unique gem, something strange, and don't tell them it's worth they will take notice.
All those other names are for 10gp precious stones, for gnome players, for flavor. And dwarves if you want. They don't matter until they need to matter. I advise to Keep It Simple. And allow color names not to confuse the situation.
I feel this doesn't make the valuation unnecessarily more complicated than it already is.
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aramis
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 170
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Post by aramis on Oct 30, 2021 7:17:48 GMT -6
The Gems table in M&T is quite barebones, a mere indication of potential gem values in GP with no mention of gem types or any other details. This fact has got me thinking about the history of Gems in the early days and how DMs used this table and what sorts of other details they would throw in, things like type, color, size, etc. Is this something worth discussing? Do you want ancient values, medieval values, rennaissance values, industrial era values, or relatively modern values? Each era's list of what's valued, what's facetable, what's used raw or merely rounded. Until modern times, star rubies faceted to cabochon's and star sapphires faceted to cabochans topped the list... once they became able to be worked into cabochons. (IIRC, that's at least 1000 BCE) (Both are forms of Corundum.) Before the ascension of Corundum, Jade, Lapis Lazuli, and Turquoise topped the list Clear amber and perfect pearls have always been high value. Agates used to count amongst the semi-precious stones... until faceting became the norm.
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Post by talysman on Oct 30, 2021 11:21:30 GMT -6
I think the question isn't about all the varieties of gems, their colors, sizes, and characteristics. Most gems come in most colors ironically. Instead, I think this is about the game mechanics relating to gemstones and their use in the game. Well, no, I think the OP question was about what GMs actually did/do, vs. the many, many tables and procedures we've seen as suggestions. plethon likes to give gem names and descriptions in room keys. I used to pull gem names out of the AD&D gem appendix, but quickly abandoned that and basically just use the gem values. tetramorph likes to use some quickie custom tables. Finarvyn just uses gem values. So that raises the question: What do you do? You gave suggestions about what to do, but is that what you do in practice? Did you always do that? Have you streamlined your process over the years, or did you get more elaborate? How do your players respond to the descriptions you give them?
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Post by howandwhy99 on Oct 30, 2021 11:53:54 GMT -6
Fair enough. Back in the Eighties we used the tables as treasure just like gaining coins. One friend in high school thought about adding powers or magical traits to some gems, but it never really went anywhere. We didn't really make magic items at the time and that was how his traits were defined.
Flavorwise I think we always gave names with sometimes descriptions added on. A lot of this became like boxed text though. It could be evocative and paint a portrait of a scene, but they didn't mean much beyond that.
I now try and add game mechanics to things to give them game value beyond their coolness factor. Like either a unique or commonplace monster can be given interesting mechanics to play with. To me, that means base game mechanics as currency, but also the memory/note testing relating to the Valuation/Trade game can be puzzled out by players as I outlined in the previous post.
In Dangerous Journeys Gygax paid more attention to gems and herbs magical traits, but there they remain suggestions. (But lots of them).
As for unique gemstone magic items I do remember making "Time Stones" mined by gnomes in an abandoned gnome-home. These were basically amethyst geodes with distorted light blur inside. Like my favorite MI's they are a game unto themselves. Discovering voices and people on the other side of this distortion, that they are actually from the past, and the stones are mini-portals for trade and storage, but limited in circumference. I added a trust element too with gnomes wanting to know about their future - apparent destruction. Not always the best idea to stick their hand or head through.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Nov 3, 2021 23:51:49 GMT -6
I like gem names, so I always give them (often with some mention of size and/or quality), but often from the tables in a different edition than I am actually running Value should depend on size and quality as well as gem type - a huge flawless pearl should be worth more than a small low quality diamond - so there isn't necessarily a consistent "onyx = 50 gp, pearl = 100 gp" etc.
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Post by dicebro on Nov 8, 2021 11:23:38 GMT -6
The Gems table in M&T is quite barebones, a mere indication of potential gem values in GP with no mention of gem types or any other details. This fact has got me thinking about the history of Gems in the early days and how DMs used this table and what sorts of other details they would throw in, things like type, color, size, etc. Is this something worth discussing?
My favorite gems table from any edition is the RC one, and I would probably use this as a basis in an OD&D game. I'm a fan of giving out detailed gems with varying quality and size, especially in the deeper levels of the dungeon to offset some of the tedium of coin-horde transport logistics. Not that I think transporting massive coin hordes has no place in the game, but not every session should become bogged down in it. It can also offer a choice to players when faced with a huge horde of mixed treasure: take the gems and get out, or stay a while and try to move some or all of the coins as well.
I also allow players to simply use gems in place of currency when buying big ticket items, and treat some of the lesser gems as a currency in their own right. And certain very large and very valuable gems could even be famous named gems with their own stories behind them. My OD&D house rule: I typically describe magical stones with colors. The gem cracks and becomes worthless after the magic is used up. Famous magical gemstone artifacts get most of my attention when it comes to detail.
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Post by Harbinger on Nov 12, 2021 13:15:32 GMT -6
Not quite on topic, but I love how the gem table is its own little mini-game when the party is counting their loot. You roll a d6 and on a 1, the gem is more valuable than thought.
10% chance of it being 1000 gp, then if you roll 6 1s in a row, it's worth 500,000 GP!
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Post by Starbeard on Nov 15, 2021 16:14:11 GMT -6
Not quite on topic, but I love how the gem table is its own little mini-game when the party is counting their loot. You roll a d6 and on a 1, the gem is more valuable than thought. 10% chance of it being 1000 gp, then if you roll 6 1s in a row, it's worth 500,000 GP! That's why I usually just tell them "it's a gem" or "it's jewelry," and then let the players roll up the values themselves once they try to cache out. If there's a jeweller, they can have it appraised: pay 1-10% of its discovered worth to receive its XP up front; the gem/jewelry is kept and its resale value noted. If there's a bank or interested buyer, they can trade it in for cash (or kind if appropriate): roll its value, sell the item for that much money and XP. Edit: If you've appraised the item, then you can always try to sell it later (but usually through bartering, so you might get better or worse). Also, I have sometimes allowed a "second opinion": if you take it to someone else and pay for an appraisal, you can roll the value anew, but this value now stands permanently.
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Post by Starbeard on Nov 20, 2021 11:02:38 GMT -6
On a related note, jewelry: I've never had a player voluntarily keep bling just to wear, it always goes into the money pot. In my solo games, though, I do it all the time. One long surviving character is the fighter Joanna, and I always opt to put her treasure shares in jewelry and let everyone else take the hard coin. She is among the most experienced characters, but is always a little close to running out of money because her assets are all being worn.
I give her charisma bonuses sometimes, based on how many thousands of gp she wears. Occasionally she's had to sell off a lesser piece for the cash to pay her retainers. Once or twice she's saved the party by dropping an item while running from the encounter.
It's become a little minigame for me: I use the BECMI jewelry table to determine what type each piece is, and try to maximize her bling based around what she has.
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Post by rsdean on Nov 21, 2021 7:15:03 GMT -6
On a related note, jewelry: I've never had a player voluntarily keep bling just to wear, it always goes into the money pot. In my solo games, though, I do it all the time. One long surviving character is the fighter Joanna, and I always opt to put her treasure shares in jewelry and let everyone else take the hard coin. She is among the most experienced characters, but is always a little close to running out of money because her assets are all being worn. I give her charisma bonuses sometimes, based on how many thousands of gp she wears. Occasionally she's had to sell off a lesser piece for the cash to pay her retainers. Once or twice she's saved the party by dropping an item while running from the encounter. It's become a little minigame for me: I use the BECMI jewelry table to determine what type each piece is, and try to maximize her bling based around what she has. Depending on what sort of banking system one envisions for a D&D world, wearing your wealth may be about the securist way to hang on to it …
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2021 13:21:59 GMT -6
Not quite on topic, but I love how the gem table is its own little mini-game when the party is counting their loot. You roll a d6 and on a 1, the gem is more valuable than thought. 10% chance of it being 1000 gp, then if you roll 6 1s in a row, it's worth 500,000 GP! That's why I usually just tell them "it's a gem" or "it's jewelry," and then let the players roll up the values themselves once they try to cache out. If there's a jeweller, they can have it appraised: pay 1-10% of its discovered worth to receive its XP up front; the gem/jewelry is kept and its resale value noted. If there's a bank or interested buyer, they can trade it in for cash (or kind if appropriate): roll its value, sell the item for that much money and XP. Edit: If you've appraised the item, then you can always try to sell it later (but usually through bartering, so you might get better or worse). Also, I have sometimes allowed a "second opinion": if you take it to someone else and pay for an appraisal, you can roll the value anew, but this value now stands permanently. This would be a fun place to utilize a Handout, perhaps exclusive to parties with Dwarves, Kobolds or Gnomes. A "roll on the gem table" type chart, laminated and colored, with illustrations of various gem types. Without the right party members, you'd need to visit a Jeweler to see this chart, and pay an additional fee to roll on it.
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Post by Starbeard on Nov 21, 2021 17:36:07 GMT -6
I'm all for handouts and feelies!
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Post by plethon on Dec 20, 2021 11:32:52 GMT -6
I was just reading Supp II and noticed something relevant:
New Magic and Treasure: [...] PEARLS: Treat the same as gems. PINK PEARLS: Treat as jewels. BLACK PEARLS: Treat as magic amulet good for one additional spell, which the magic user could normally perform. GOLD PEARL: As black pearl but for Clerics. RED PEARL: Allows Fighters to heal up to ten hit points a day when held to wound. SILVER PEARL: Worth 10-100,000 gold pieces, each (5% any gem will be one)
It seems to align with the idea of thematically altering Gems/Jewelry to match the location(undersea), also the 'Silver Pearl' which has a chance to replace any Gem is interesting, it looks a lot like the 5% chance of getting an extraordinary Gem in later versions of Basic.
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Post by tombowings on Dec 20, 2021 12:38:37 GMT -6
I really need to read supplement II more carefully sometime.
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Post by vasious on Dec 21, 2021 17:26:54 GMT -6
On a related note, jewelry: I've never had a player voluntarily keep bling just to wear, it always goes into the money pot. In my solo games, though, I do it all the time. One long surviving character is the fighter Joanna, and I always opt to put her treasure shares in jewelry and let everyone else take the hard coin. She is among the most experienced characters, but is always a little close to running out of money because her assets are all being worn. I give her charisma bonuses sometimes, based on how many thousands of gp she wears. Occasionally she's had to sell off a lesser piece for the cash to pay her retainers. Once or twice she's saved the party by dropping an item while running from the encounter. It's become a little minigame for me: I use the BECMI jewelry table to determine what type each piece is, and try to maximize her bling based around what she has. I came across and started using www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82562/All-the-Treasures-of-the-World-GEMS& www.drivethrurpg.com/product/84504/All-the-Treasures-of-the-World-JEWELSTo generate descriptions of jewelry (and magic rings and other magic items) And I was quite chuffed when PCs started wearing the jewelry
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Post by cometaryorbit on Dec 24, 2021 16:49:24 GMT -6
I was just reading Supp II and noticed something relevant: New Magic and Treasure: [...] PEARLS: Treat the same as gems. PINK PEARLS: Treat as jewels. BLACK PEARLS: Treat as magic amulet good for one additional spell, which the magic user could normally perform. GOLD PEARL: As black pearl but for Clerics. RED PEARL: Allows Fighters to heal up to ten hit points a day when held to wound. SILVER PEARL: Worth 10-100,000 gold pieces, each (5% any gem will be one) It seems to align with the idea of thematically altering Gems/Jewelry to match the location(undersea), also the 'Silver Pearl' which has a chance to replace any Gem is interesting, it looks a lot like the 5% chance of getting an extraordinary Gem in later versions of Basic. Yes, those are definitely cool; I like the class specific magical effects (though if the supplements are being used I think Red Pearls ought to work for Thieves/Assassins and Monks, too - anyone not a spellcaster?)
Or maybe a pearl type (blue? gray?) that offers a re-roll on one thief ability roll per day?
I guess pink pearls' "treat as jewels" means GP value is as jewelry rather than gems?
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Post by Starbeard on Dec 24, 2021 18:58:57 GMT -6
On a related note, jewelry: I've never had a player voluntarily keep bling just to wear, it always goes into the money pot. In my solo games, though, I do it all the time. One long surviving character is the fighter Joanna, and I always opt to put her treasure shares in jewelry and let everyone else take the hard coin. She is among the most experienced characters, but is always a little close to running out of money because her assets are all being worn. I give her charisma bonuses sometimes, based on how many thousands of gp she wears. Occasionally she's had to sell off a lesser piece for the cash to pay her retainers. Once or twice she's saved the party by dropping an item while running from the encounter. It's become a little minigame for me: I use the BECMI jewelry table to determine what type each piece is, and try to maximize her bling based around what she has. I came across and started using www.drivethrurpg.com/product/82562/All-the-Treasures-of-the-World-GEMS& www.drivethrurpg.com/product/84504/All-the-Treasures-of-the-World-JEWELSTo generate descriptions of jewelry (and magic rings and other magic items) And I was quite chuffed when PCs started wearing the jewelry I forgot all about these. I'll have to check them out now!
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