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Post by Desparil on Sept 28, 2021 0:20:25 GMT -6
TSR bought some of their competitors and WotC bought more competitors, and all of that IP is buried. Has any of the Avalon Hill been returned to print? That was a huge amount of IP that was buried. Now everything is only for sale at collectors prices, which shuts me out of the market. I have the TSR stuff I want, but other publishers not so much. That describes my largest criticism with WotC. While it's a profitable business strategy, it's also evil and moral reprehensible as it decreases the amount of wonder, beauty, and creative expression in the world. It's evil of them to not burn through millions of dollars reprinting a bunch of stuff that would never in a million years sell enough copies to recoup the production costs? They're not decreasing anything, all those games still exist, if you don't want to pay collector prices then make your own boards and tokens by taping or gluing print-outs of the game materials to cardstock.
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Post by tombowings on Sept 28, 2021 2:02:08 GMT -6
That describes my largest criticism with WotC. While it's a profitable business strategy, it's also evil and moral reprehensible as it decreases the amount of wonder, beauty, and creative expression in the world. It's evil of them to not burn through millions of dollars reprinting a bunch of stuff that would never in a million years sell enough copies to recoup the production costs? They're not decreasing anything, all those games still exist, if you don't want to pay collector prices then make your own boards and tokens by taping or gluing print-outs of the game materials to cardstock. It is repulsive and evil (in my opinion) to prioritize profit over art, yes. That isn't to say WotC can't sit on their IPs. They can do whatever they want. That is their prerogative. I (personally) just think their decisions happen to be evil and lack magnificence (in the Aristotelian sense).
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Post by robertsconley on Sept 28, 2021 7:18:49 GMT -6
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Post by robertsconley on Sept 28, 2021 7:21:45 GMT -6
It's evil of them to not burn through millions of dollars reprinting a bunch of stuff that would never in a million years sell enough copies to recoup the production costs? They're not decreasing anything, all those games still exist, if you don't want to pay collector prices then make your own boards and tokens by taping or gluing print-outs of the game materials to cardstock. It is repulsive and evil (in my opinion) to prioritize profit over art, yes. That isn't to say WotC can't sit on their IPs. They can do whatever they want. That is their prerogative. I (personally) just think their decisions happen to be evil and lack magnificence (in the Aristotelian sense). Well the thing is that whatever Wizards does doesn't really matter as they release the core of the IP as open content free for anybody to use. So if a person doesn't think they are doing it right then they have the tools to show what they are doing wrong. And with the internet and digital technology being what it is this can be done within the time one has for a hobby. dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srd
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Post by jeffb on Sept 28, 2021 8:16:48 GMT -6
Coupled with GM binder and Roll20 and you have more 5e content than a DM could ever use in a dozen lifetimes. And most of it better thought out and play tested than the stuff coming out of WotC. Maybe, but that's a low bar. I've picked up a fair amount of things from DMs Guild over the years for 5E. I'd say it's a 30/70 split (good/bad). Some of it has been really good (the guy who converted the 4E monster manuals to 5E for example), some of it really bad (a whole bunch of adventures I purchased). It feels like 2001 all over to me: throw down your money and hope for the best. EDIT- To be clear, I LIKE having the variety so I can pick and choose, just that like the early D20 era, it's a real crapshoot- even more-so because I can't sit down at a bookstore and browse through it before purchase. I've found 5E has produced lots of material, but most of it is designed for a younger generation who seek different play styles and fictional/story elements. Additionally, the "old guard" publishers who have got into it- Goodman, and Frog God for example- have also produced a bunch of mediocre. I spent a bunch on some of those early Kickstarters from them and they clearly do more inspired work when designing for their own games.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 28, 2021 8:25:01 GMT -6
Is it something in particular that you're looking for? As far as I can tell, they have nearly the entire back catalogue on sale on DriveThruRPG - both stuff they released under their own label post-acquisition as well as the older TSR stuff, going all the way back to OD&D and Chainmail. I don't think they've ever been "burying" things, just they weren't tech-savvy enough to set up their own online store back when they could have been a dominant player, and resisted contracting out to a third party until it became clear how many sales they were missing out on by not having a digital option. TSR bought some of their competitors and WotC bought more competitors, and all of that IP is buried. Has any of the Avalon Hill been returned to print? That was a huge amount of IP that was buried. Now everything is only for sale at collectors prices, which shuts me out of the market. I have the TSR stuff I want, but other publishers not so much. I'd like to see them relinquish the rights to DragonQuest, and see somebody who cared pick it up. There was some excellent material there- Th Enchanted Wood by Jacquays is an unsung classic- certainly on par with the classic D&D adventures done for Judges Guild, and Griffin Mountain for RQ. The Frontiers of Alusia is a great little setting starter. I'd buy into a KS to get those items reprinted along with the Second Edition book and modules.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2021 9:56:23 GMT -6
TSR bought some of their competitors and WotC bought more competitors, and all of that IP is buried. Has any of the Avalon Hill been returned to print? That was a huge amount of IP that was buried. Now everything is only for sale at collectors prices, which shuts me out of the market. I have the TSR stuff I want, but other publishers not so much. I mean yeah, if you're looking for complete board games with boards and tokens and everything, they're only going to reprint the ones they think they can actually get decent sales numbers on like Axis & Allies, so you're probably out of luck. Honestly, even before Avalon Hill got bought out, only their biggest hits got multiple productions runs over the years. As for RPG products, I assume that WotC doesn't actually have copies of the products associated with a lot of the IP they own - in the past, that was the reason for several missing classic and OD&D products, they didn't have physical copies to scan. Presumably they don't want to pay collector prices either, for the tiny number of sales the scans would generate. You can easily find most of it "in the wild" though. They should possess the copies and documents from the companies they bought up, so they should have the info to reprint, do POD or scan and release as pdfs. If they don't, that would mean they have buried it forever, with no legitimate reason for having done so. As for piracy, I am not a big fan of that and corporations, in an electronic age, should not be forcing people into that as the only option.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2021 10:01:09 GMT -6
TSR bought some of their competitors and WotC bought more competitors, and all of that IP is buried. Has any of the Avalon Hill been returned to print? That was a huge amount of IP that was buried. Now everything is only for sale at collectors prices, which shuts me out of the market. I have the TSR stuff I want, but other publishers not so much. I'd like to see them relinquish the rights to DragonQuest, and see somebody who cared pick it up. There was some excellent material there- Th Enchanted Wood by Jacquays is an unsung classic- certainly on par with the classic D&D adventures done for Judges Guild, and Griffin Mountain for RQ. The Frontiers of Alusia is a great little setting starter. I'd buy into a KS to get those items reprinted along with the Second Edition book and modules. IP that you are not going to keep in print by some means even if it is only pdfs, should be released to the public domain. I wish they would reform copyright so that it only remains in copyright for 20 years and after that copyright ends if you do not keep it in print. That way *Mickey Mouse would be copyrighted forever and other stuff would go to the public domain where it belongs. Use it or lose it should be the rule. *Our atrocious copyright laws are only this way because of Disney not wanting Mickey Mouse to go our of copyright and similar issues with other companies.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2021 10:05:15 GMT -6
It is repulsive and evil (in my opinion) to prioritize profit over art, yes. That isn't to say WotC can't sit on their IPs. They can do whatever they want. That is their prerogative. I (personally) just think their decisions happen to be evil and lack magnificence (in the Aristotelian sense). Well the thing is that whatever Wizards does doesn't really matter as they release the core of the IP as open content free for anybody to use. So if a person doesn't think they are doing it right then they have the tools to show what they are doing wrong. And with the internet and digital technology being what it is this can be done within the time one has for a hobby. dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srdThe SRD and OGL have nothing to do with the IP they have buried that comes from companies that were bought up, all of the non-D&D based games and board games. I suppose the stuff I am talking about could be pirated, of which I am not a fan. But even to do that you would first have to be able to pay the collector prices for those items and then have the equipment and skills to reproduce it. Now if I wanted to make my own D&D (any version) clone, I could do that, but I don't need to since I have the originals I need and want of that material.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2021 10:10:55 GMT -6
That describes my largest criticism with WotC. While it's a profitable business strategy, it's also evil and moral reprehensible as it decreases the amount of wonder, beauty, and creative expression in the world. It's evil of them to not burn through millions of dollars reprinting a bunch of stuff that would never in a million years sell enough copies to recoup the production costs? They're not decreasing anything, all those games still exist, if you don't want to pay collector prices then make your own boards and tokens by taping or gluing print-outs of the game materials to cardstock. One is that all of the games and board games from the companies they bought up (TSR/WotC) are only available at collector prices. Even if you believed that piracy was justified, I don't, I rather doubt that most of it is available that way. I also remember reading on Twitter that the prime source of pirated material was taken down. I know there are other sources, but who want to risk downloading virus laden pirated files to their computer. I do not on either count. So I don't know of anyway to make your own stuff, without stealing or paying through the nose, making a copy and then reselling it.
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Post by robertsconley on Sept 28, 2021 10:32:23 GMT -6
Well the thing is that whatever Wizards does doesn't really matter as they release the core of the IP as open content free for anybody to use. So if a person doesn't think they are doing it right then they have the tools to show what they are doing wrong. And with the internet and digital technology being what it is this can be done within the time one has for a hobby. dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srdThe SRD and OGL have nothing to do with the IP they have buried that comes from companies that were bought up, all of the non-D&D based games and board games. I suppose the stuff I am talking about could be pirated, of which I am not a fan. But even to do that you would first have to be able to pay the collector prices for those items and then have the equipment and skills to reproduce it. Now if I wanted to make my own D&D (any version) clone, I could do that, but I don't need to since I have the originals I need and want of that material. While Wizards has a few buried games from the 90s mainly their own efforts. The rest are from TSR or Hasbro's independent acquisition of Avalon Hill. On the wargame side especially a lot of the games have been licensed or reverted to their creators. Regardless of the status of that issue. The post I responded to was about what being currently offered now under the D&D brand. And the most of the IP regarding that is available as open content.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2021 11:04:24 GMT -6
the rest are from TSR independent acquisition of Avalon Hill... ...Avalon Hill, which WotC now owns having bought TSR. WotC has buried the Avalon Hill IP and they also buried Dangerous Journeys/Mythus which does not resemble D&D at all. As for the SRD and Open Content, it places limits on users, but doesn't really give you all that much if you are writing something original. Doing something original, would be IMO better done without the OGL. Lots of games have Hit points and many other game terms predating the OGL, so those are clearly not protected.(not a lawyer, not advice, but if dozens of other companies pre-OGL were not sued, I would not be worried about it either) I would view the SRD/Open Content/OGL of value only if it allowed me to slap compatible with D&D(version) on the product. So if I were to write something (I am not) I would just put compatible with the original 1974 RPG or compatible with the Advanced version of the original 1974 RPG and go on my way. There is a lot of things you could write that would be fully compatible and not remotely infringing.
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Post by robertsconley on Sept 28, 2021 11:34:16 GMT -6
the rest are from TSR independent acquisition of Avalon Hill... ...Avalon Hill, which WotC now owns having bought TSR. WotC has buried the Avalon Hill IP and they also buried Dangerous Journeys/Mythus which does not resemble D&D at all. Again Wizards did not buy Avalon Hill, Hasbro did in August 1998. Since then they keep shuffling Avalon Hill IP between divisions. As for Avalon Hill IP. some of it buried, some of it is licensed, some of it sold back to its created. For example Multi-Man Publishing licensed Advanced Squad Leader. As for the SRD and Open Content, it places limits on users, but doesn't really give you all that much if you are writing something original. Doing something original, would be IMO better done without the OGL. Lots of games have Hit points and many other game terms predating the OGL, so those are clearly not protected.(not a lawyer, not advice, but if dozens of other companies pre-OGL were not sued, I would not be worried about it either) First off the only limitation the OGL places is that you can't cite compatibility and any thing you make directly based on the SRD also has to be open content. However if you make a new rule subsystem or a adventure or a setting those elements can be declared as product identity and remain as non-open content. And the point of the OGL isn't make hit point legal, it is to make the specific combination of Armor Class, Hit Points, Class, Level, etc useable by other without having to hire an IP attorney. I would view the SRD/Open Content/OGL of value only if it allowed me to slap compatible with D&D(version) on the product. So if I were to write something (I am not) I would just put compatible with the original 1974 RPG or compatible with the Advanced version of the original 1974 RPG and go on my way. There is a lot of things you could write that would be fully compatible and not remotely infringing. Fine, do that but do hire an IP attorney to you understand what the limits are. There are plenty of examples of where people succeeded in doing this and plenty of other examples where they had to pull products from sales especially in the D&D 3.X era. So it not as clear cut as you make it. In contrast it is clear cut with the SRD. You can use anything found in the D20 SRD provide you are willing to abide by not citing compatibility and anything you use directly you make open content. If you are not keen on sorting out what open content or not in your work then there is an acceptable way of doing that that may publishers used including myself for my Scourge of the Demon Wolf Adventure. Designation of Product Identity: The following items are here by designated as Product Identity in accordance with Section 1(e) of the Open Game License, version 1.0; Any and all Judges Guild logos, identifying marks, and trade dress; Any and all Bat in the Attic Games logos, identifying marks, and trade dress; all artwork, maps, symbols, depictions, and illustrations; all of Underworld and Adventures is designated Product Identity; except such items that already appear in the System Reference Document. Designation of Open Content: Subject to the Product Identity designation above, all creature and NPC statistic blocks are designated as Open Gaming Content, as well as all material derived from the SRD or other open content sources.
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Post by tombowings on Sept 28, 2021 11:57:19 GMT -6
To my mind, an owner of an IP has a responsibility to the piece of art and to the collective human imagination to continuously make that IP available perpetually. If that IP is not make available, it should be make open source. Anything less is repugnant.
Once again, I don't believe any person or company should be legally obligated by the sword of governmental might to do any of the above. It is simply my person belief.
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Post by robertsconley on Sept 28, 2021 12:36:27 GMT -6
To my mind, an owner of an IP has a responsibility to the piece of art and to the collective human imagination to continuously make that IP available perpetually. If that IP is not make available, it should be make open source. Anything less is repugnant. Once again, I don't believe any person or company should be legally obligated by the sword of governmental might to do any of the above. It is simply my person belief. My view is that 28 year + 28 years on renewal before it public domain is sufficient return for anybody's creative investment. But in the current legal regime releasing open content under a open license that is as good or better suffices until the law changes. Right now there are several major RPGs that are not "current" but have enough open content that a determined fan can make a go of it as far as a revival without fear of legal repercussions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2021 14:27:35 GMT -6
Right now there are several major RPGs that are not "current" but have enough open content that a determined fan can make a go of it as far as a revival without fear of legal repercussions. Which ones are they? What RPGs are considered major other than D&D and Pathfinder?
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Post by robertsconley on Sept 28, 2021 17:54:06 GMT -6
Right now there are several major RPGs that are not "current" but have enough open content that a determined fan can make a go of it as far as a revival without fear of legal repercussions. Which ones are they? What RPGs are considered major other than D&D and Pathfinder? Runequest, Traveller, Fate
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Post by Desparil on Sept 28, 2021 20:59:12 GMT -6
I mean yeah, if you're looking for complete board games with boards and tokens and everything, they're only going to reprint the ones they think they can actually get decent sales numbers on like Axis & Allies, so you're probably out of luck. Honestly, even before Avalon Hill got bought out, only their biggest hits got multiple productions runs over the years. As for RPG products, I assume that WotC doesn't actually have copies of the products associated with a lot of the IP they own - in the past, that was the reason for several missing classic and OD&D products, they didn't have physical copies to scan. Presumably they don't want to pay collector prices either, for the tiny number of sales the scans would generate. You can easily find most of it "in the wild" though. They should possess the copies and documents from the companies they bought up, so they should have the info to reprint, do POD or scan and release as pdfs. If they don't, that would mean they have buried it forever, with no legitimate reason for having done so. I find it extremely unlikely they possess copies of most of it. That would require - for dozens or even hundreds of products, most of which hadn't had a print run in 20 or more years even *before* the IP sale - that the original publisher still had a copy. Specifically, that their materials hadn't been lost in an office move, damaged or destroyed by an office flood, fire, mold infestation, or any other adverse event, or taken home by an owner or employee during the company's going-out-of-business downward spiral. And on top of that, that the IP acquisition actually included transferring the contents of their offices; many corporate acquisitions simply shut down the unneeded office space, and depending on the lease agreement either they or the property owner will hire a cleaning company to come in and get rid of all the outgoing company's junk. This is especially true if the acquisition is primarily targeted at getting hold of a few "crown jewels" from the smaller company and the rest of the IP is incidental. The problem is twofold for any companies that were bought by TSR prior to WotC buying TSR, or for ones like Avalon Hill that were bought separately by Hasbro prior to being delegated to WotC's management. To me, using the word "buried" means that some deliberate decision was made that these products are not to be scanned and sold on DTRPG; if they were going to deliberately bury anything, they wouldn't have something that aged as poorly as module X8 Drums On Fire Mountain still up for sale. Plus, they sell Boot Hill, Gamma World, Amazing Engine, and Star Frontiers - clearly they're not worried about any of those old games competing with D&D. I also wonder if they even retained all of the IP that we attribute to them - as an example, the Alternity copyright was either sold or abandoned due to inaction, and Sasquatch Game Studio created a remake a couple of years ago. Who knows what other niche titles might be floating around in limbo like Alternity was between 1998 and 2018.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2021 11:38:40 GMT -6
They should possess the copies and documents from the companies they bought up, so they should have the info to reprint, do POD or scan and release as pdfs. If they don't, that would mean they have buried it forever, with no legitimate reason for having done so. I find it extremely unlikely they possess copies of most of it. That would require - for dozens or even hundreds of products, most of which hadn't had a print run in 20 or more years even *before* the IP sale - that the original publisher still had a copy. Specifically, that their materials hadn't been lost in an office move, damaged or destroyed by an office flood, fire, mold infestation, or any other adverse event, or taken home by an owner or employee during the company's going-out-of-business downward spiral. And on top of that, that the IP acquisition actually included transferring the contents of their offices; many corporate acquisitions simply shut down the unneeded office space, and depending on the lease agreement either they or the property owner will hire a cleaning company to come in and get rid of all the outgoing company's junk. This is especially true if the acquisition is primarily targeted at getting hold of a few "crown jewels" from the smaller company and the rest of the IP is incidental. The problem is twofold for any companies that were bought by TSR prior to WotC buying TSR, or for ones like Avalon Hill that were bought separately by Hasbro prior to being delegated to WotC's management. To me, using the word "buried" means that some deliberate decision was made that these products are not to be scanned and sold on DTRPG; if they were going to deliberately bury anything, they wouldn't have something that aged as poorly as module X8 Drums On Fire Mountain still up for sale. Plus, they sell Boot Hill, Gamma World, Amazing Engine, and Star Frontiers - clearly they're not worried about any of those old games competing with D&D. I also wonder if they even retained all of the IP that we attribute to them - as an example, the Alternity copyright was either sold or abandoned due to inaction, and Sasquatch Game Studio created a remake a couple of years ago. Who knows what other niche titles might be floating around in limbo like Alternity was between 1998 and 2018. If what you are saying is true, then rather than being deliberate, it is just gross incompetence. The minimum, the bare minimum, they could do is just announce that these product lines (insert names of product lines) are our IP and products and product lines not listed, but previously owned by - insert list of companies - are now released to the public domain. I cannot imagine buying a game company and not making a search of their files for gems or rough gems that have been previously overlooked. Having a companies products (that you just paid for) hauled off to the dump is unconscionable. If what you are saying is true, then it is even worse than deliberately burying/hiding IP, they are actually destroying IP, not just hiding it.
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Post by Desparil on Sept 29, 2021 17:18:05 GMT -6
I find it extremely unlikely they possess copies of most of it. That would require - for dozens or even hundreds of products, most of which hadn't had a print run in 20 or more years even *before* the IP sale - that the original publisher still had a copy. Specifically, that their materials hadn't been lost in an office move, damaged or destroyed by an office flood, fire, mold infestation, or any other adverse event, or taken home by an owner or employee during the company's going-out-of-business downward spiral. And on top of that, that the IP acquisition actually included transferring the contents of their offices; many corporate acquisitions simply shut down the unneeded office space, and depending on the lease agreement either they or the property owner will hire a cleaning company to come in and get rid of all the outgoing company's junk. This is especially true if the acquisition is primarily targeted at getting hold of a few "crown jewels" from the smaller company and the rest of the IP is incidental. The problem is twofold for any companies that were bought by TSR prior to WotC buying TSR, or for ones like Avalon Hill that were bought separately by Hasbro prior to being delegated to WotC's management. To me, using the word "buried" means that some deliberate decision was made that these products are not to be scanned and sold on DTRPG; if they were going to deliberately bury anything, they wouldn't have something that aged as poorly as module X8 Drums On Fire Mountain still up for sale. Plus, they sell Boot Hill, Gamma World, Amazing Engine, and Star Frontiers - clearly they're not worried about any of those old games competing with D&D. I also wonder if they even retained all of the IP that we attribute to them - as an example, the Alternity copyright was either sold or abandoned due to inaction, and Sasquatch Game Studio created a remake a couple of years ago. Who knows what other niche titles might be floating around in limbo like Alternity was between 1998 and 2018. If what you are saying is true, then rather than being deliberate, it is just gross incompetence. The minimum, the bare minimum, they could do is just announce that these product lines (insert names of product lines) are our IP and products and product lines not listed, but previously owned by - insert list of companies - are now released to the public domain. I cannot imagine buying a game company and not making a search of their files for gems or rough gems that have been previously overlooked. Having a companies products (that you just paid for) hauled off to the dump is unconscionable. If what you are saying is true, then it is even worse than deliberately burying/hiding IP, they are actually destroying IP, not just hiding it. I mean, I don't see any reason why they would make such a public domain release - keeping the IP means they still reserve the right to create a new edition or otherwise use those properties as they see fit. And no IP is destroyed, all of those games still exist, they're simply out of print. Did Stephen King "destroy IP" by letting Rage go out of print, is he an evil person for that? How about every book that doesn't sell well enough to justify a second print run, are all of those authors doing something unconscionable by not making their books public domain? It seems like you're just using any excuse to lambaste a company that you dislike for behaving the same way as every other IP owner - especially since you haven't even addressed the point that much of it may have already been missing when the current owners took possession. I'd bet good money that a lot of it disappeared during the TSR era considering how even some classic D&D materials were missing when WotC first started selling scans, they started selling the old stuff online in 2003 or 2004 and OD&D famously didn't make an appearance until several years later, which is what motivated Matt Finch to put together the original Swords & Wizardry. Now if you want to argue that the length of copyrights is much too long, I'll totally agree with you there - but I'll blame Disney for lobbying their way into the laws that we have now, I won't blame anyone else for acting in their own best interest according to those laws. P.S. WotC already abandoned the DragonQuest trademark, which is why Square Enix was able to trademark Dragon Quest for their video games in the early 2000s and start using the same titles for their games in the US as they do in Japan. They've also presumably abandoned many others, since a trademark is considered abandoned if it hasn't been used in three years or more. Combined with the idea-expression divide in copyright law, this means someone could in fact reproduce the rules for DragonQuest - and even call it DragonQuest either if Square Enix allowed it, or if a judge could be convinced that "DragonQuest" and its accompanying logo and trade dress were sufficiently different from "Dragon Quest" and its logo and such - as long as it was expressed in a different manner, via paraphrasing, reorganization, changing or removing tables, etc. References below. www.chron.com/business/article/The-maker-of-Monopoly-game-loses-court-ruling-1524635.phpupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/U.S._Copyright_Office_fl108.pdfstrebecklaw.com/court-rules-favor-cloned-tabletop-game-no-protection-us-copyright-law/
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2021 20:04:05 GMT -6
You said the following And on top of that, that the IP acquisition actually included transferring the contents of their offices; many corporate acquisitions simply shut down the unneeded office space, and depending on the lease agreement either they or the property owner will hire a cleaning company to come in and get rid of all the outgoing company's junk. This is especially true if the acquisition is primarily targeted at getting hold of a few "crown jewels" from the smaller company and the rest of the IP is incidental. Hauling all extant copies of games and documents for producing those games to a landfill would be destroying IP. To which I replied. If what you are saying is true, then rather than being deliberate, it is just gross incompetence. The minimum, the bare minimum, they could do is just announce that these product lines (insert names of product lines) are our IP and products and product lines not listed, but previously owned by - insert list of companies - are now released to the public domain. I cannot imagine buying a game company and not making a search of their files for gems or rough gems that have been previously overlooked. Having a companies products (that you just paid for) hauled off to the dump is unconscionable. If what you are saying is true, then it is even worse than deliberately burying/hiding IP, they are actually destroying IP, not just hiding it. To which you replied I mean, I don't see any reason why they would make such a public domain release - keeping the IP means they still reserve the right to create a new edition or otherwise use those properties as they see fit. And no IP is destroyed, all of those games still exist, they're simply out of print. Did Stephen King "destroy IP" by letting Rage go out of print, is he an evil person for that? How about every book that doesn't sell well enough to justify a second print run, are all of those authors doing something unconscionable by not making their books public domain? It seems like you're just using any excuse to lambaste a company that you dislike for behaving the same way as every other IP owner - especially since you haven't even addressed the point that much of it may have already been missing when the current owners took possession. I'd bet good money that a lot of it disappeared during the TSR era considering how even some classic D&D materials were missing when WotC first started selling scans, they started selling the old stuff online in 2003 or 2004 and OD&D famously didn't make an appearance until several years later, which is what motivated Matt Finch to put together the original Swords & Wizardry. If it was cleaned out by a cleaning company and sent to a landfill, it was in fact destroyed. And I am talking about TSR/WotC as one entity here, both bearing the blame for the collective actions of taking IP, a lot of IP out of public view to never be seen again. Little bits and pieces may be seen here and there, but for the most part hundreds of products are unlikely to ever see the light of day. The only moral thing would be to do a public domain release, since according to you they have no copies or documents anyway, so if they release it someone would have the incentive to track it down and bring it back into print. OD&D only made an appearance after they finally figured out people would buy it, it was not available in 03/04 because it never crossed their minds that anyone wanted it. As for your comment "behaving the same way as every other IP owner", if every IP owner behaves like this, then they all should be lambasted. Once a reasonable copyright period has passed, it would go into the public domain. If I were the original author and a second print run was not justified and after 20 years I still couldn't figure out any way to make money off it, then it should go to the public domain. Maybe someone else could do with it what I could not. That is why copyright used to have a reasonable expiration period. I am not about to give a corporation a pass for taking unfair advantage of corrupt laws designed to bury IP for so long everyone who remembers it will be dead by the time it passes into the public domain. The Library of Congress is full of music that is out of copyright, you would think some smart enterprising young writer/composer would mine it, but no one does because it is forgotten. I would be extremely surprised if the length of copyright is not extended again prior to January 1, 2024.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2021 20:18:12 GMT -6
Interesting that this card game could have been patented and with periodic payment of fees that runs 20 years and is not renewable. That would prevent clones for 20 years, but they note it is really expensive. Not sure why they keep calling it a tabletop game as that is a different beast from a card game.
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Post by Desparil on Sept 29, 2021 21:38:28 GMT -6
You said the following And on top of that, that the IP acquisition actually included transferring the contents of their offices; many corporate acquisitions simply shut down the unneeded office space, and depending on the lease agreement either they or the property owner will hire a cleaning company to come in and get rid of all the outgoing company's junk. This is especially true if the acquisition is primarily targeted at getting hold of a few "crown jewels" from the smaller company and the rest of the IP is incidental. Hauling all extant copies of games and documents for producing those games to a landfill would be destroying IP. To which I replied. If what you are saying is true, then rather than being deliberate, it is just gross incompetence. The minimum, the bare minimum, they could do is just announce that these product lines (insert names of product lines) are our IP and products and product lines not listed, but previously owned by - insert list of companies - are now released to the public domain. I cannot imagine buying a game company and not making a search of their files for gems or rough gems that have been previously overlooked. Having a companies products (that you just paid for) hauled off to the dump is unconscionable. If what you are saying is true, then it is even worse than deliberately burying/hiding IP, they are actually destroying IP, not just hiding it. To which you replied I mean, I don't see any reason why they would make such a public domain release - keeping the IP means they still reserve the right to create a new edition or otherwise use those properties as they see fit. And no IP is destroyed, all of those games still exist, they're simply out of print. Did Stephen King "destroy IP" by letting Rage go out of print, is he an evil person for that? How about every book that doesn't sell well enough to justify a second print run, are all of those authors doing something unconscionable by not making their books public domain? It seems like you're just using any excuse to lambaste a company that you dislike for behaving the same way as every other IP owner - especially since you haven't even addressed the point that much of it may have already been missing when the current owners took possession. I'd bet good money that a lot of it disappeared during the TSR era considering how even some classic D&D materials were missing when WotC first started selling scans, they started selling the old stuff online in 2003 or 2004 and OD&D famously didn't make an appearance until several years later, which is what motivated Matt Finch to put together the original Swords & Wizardry. If it was cleaned out by a cleaning company and sent to a landfill, it was in fact destroyed. And I am talking about TSR/WotC as one entity here, both bearing the blame for the collective actions of taking IP, a lot of IP out of public view to never be seen again. Little bits and pieces may be seen here and there, but for the most part hundreds of products are unlikely to ever see the light of day. The only moral thing would be to do a public domain release, since according to you they have no copies or documents anyway, so if they release it someone would have the incentive to track it down and bring it back into print. OD&D only made an appearance after they finally figured out people would buy it, it was not available in 03/04 because it never crossed their minds that anyone wanted it. As for your comment "behaving the same way as every other IP owner", if every IP owner behaves like this, then they all should be lambasted. Once a reasonable copyright period has passed, it would go into the public domain. If I were the original author and a second print run was not justified and after 20 years I still couldn't figure out any way to make money off it, then it should go to the public domain. Maybe someone else could do with it what I could not. That is why copyright used to have a reasonable expiration period. I am not about to give a corporation a pass for taking unfair advantage of corrupt laws designed to bury IP for so long everyone who remembers it will be dead by the time it passes into the public domain. The Library of Congress is full of music that is out of copyright, you would think some smart enterprising young writer/composer would mine it, but no one does because it is forgotten. I would be extremely surprised if the length of copyright is not extended again prior to January 1, 2024. I an unaware of any game which any company has destroyed all extant copies. The closest anyone came was when Atari literally buried all the unsold copies of the "E.T." product tie-in game, and even that I wouldn't call destroying IP since there were already 2 million cartridges "in the wild" that were already in the hands of (unsatisfied) customers. That was back-stock for a freshly released game that they were hoping to sell all of during the following year. I am hypothesizing that the acquired companies may have had a single reference company of many of these old, long out-of-print games, if even that - for games that hadn't been printed since the '60s, I'd be quite surprised if Avalon Hill still had the documents and know-how to reproduce them readily on hand in 1998 when Hasbro bought them out - and even when such reference material was available, it would be totally rational for a purchaser to look at all these products that may have only sold ten or twenty thousand copies in their heyday and say "not financially viable at our production scale." In any case, all the copies that were sold are still extant, however few or many there might be. We don't have all the works of Beethoven or Mozart in their original handwriting, but you wouldn't call those "destroyed" - excluding value from a collector's standpoint, or the scholarly value to a professor of having a workbook showing notes and revisions of a famous work, a copy of the instructions for how to play a song (or how to play a game) is no less "useful" or "real" than the original. Or to use an example of a work still well within its copyright duration, the album that my former coworker from 15 years ago and his band wrote and printed 1000 CDs of to sell at their gigs - let's say hypothetically they lost the original and all unsold copies in a house fire, or perhaps the band member who was keeping the stuff decided to move to a different state and the movers he hired lost or stole some of his stuff, or maybe the band actually broke up shortly after I met the guy and he just didn't see any use in keeping a box of a few hundred unsold CDs any longer. The destruction of unsold copies and/or the original recording does not constitute the destruction of the art since copies still exist, rare as they might be. If the CD was unreleased and those were the only copies in existence, I would agree that the art had been destroyed, but even then I would argue that he had every right to destroy it so long as none of the co-creators objected and were willing to take on the responsibility of keeping/storing those copies. As for OD&D, it made an appearance when they got their hands on a scan-worthy copy. They said as much as the time, and I have no time for conspiracy theories about them having it and deliberately holding it back, when they had already scanned and put up for sale random junk that almost no one was interested in, like the 2E Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix.
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Post by robertsconley on Sept 30, 2021 7:00:45 GMT -6
A couple of points
Patents protect ideas. Because they confer an absolute monopoly on the use of the idea they are harder to get. A crucial element is that at least on paper you have to be novel compared to prior art.
Copyright protect expression of ideas. If your expression is different than you are free to create, and distribute works based on that specific expression.
Trade Dress is the look and feel of a product. For example the way a Gucci handbag looks including little details the entire package can be considered trade dress. Trade Dress has become a bit of grey area with the prevalence of digital technology. For example anybody can make a word processor with it's own look. But what if I duplicated the keyboard short cuts and menu layouts of a rival? In general trade dress cases come down on the side of "Would the consumer be confused as to the origin of the product." So a handbag manufacturer would probably be shot down on a slightly different Gucci knockoff. But a word processor that has a different look but same menus and shortcuts as Microsoft Word would probably not. At least as far as Trade Dress goes.
When it comes to gaming, patents don't come up often. The most relevant in recent decades was Wizards patenting Magic the Gathering tap a card by turning sideways mechanic. So in general when somebody does something like hit points, advantage/disadvantage, etc. It is fair game for other RPGs. Copyright or outright copy happens but it is usually clear cut especially when it a about unique creation like the Type S Scout/Courier, mind flayer or beholder compared to merchant starships, dragons, orcs, and trolls.
The big grey area in gaming is trade dress, is the specific package of mechanics that make a game is protectable about copyright or trade dress. Generally the answer so far in regards to copyright not is not protectable. But Trade Dress remains unsettled. So while Palladium Fantasy 1e with classes, levels, hit points, etc. is clearly not D&D despite using many of the same mechanics. The presentation is different, the lists (specific classes, monsters, etc) are different.
But if you look at something like Swords & Wizardry without the open content of the D20 SRD it could run afoul trade dress as it replicates closely the mechanics and lists of OD&D + supplements. Even though the writing is the original work of Matt Finch, it presented very differently, and there are some major differences as a game (single save number).
But it protected by the fact that the exact combination of mechanics and list items it uses were released as open content under the OGL. And by the fact that the way it presented it not likely to be confused with OD&D by a random consumer.
Finally the problem is not whether X company will win a suit of infringement, the problem is that there enough to have a dispute and thus enough to have a lawsuit with all its expenses. I realize that doesn't sound fair but that how it is with many things. What people do can't be neatly segregated into precisely defined boxes. So grey areas result with the need for adjudication. Something I am sure most of you reading this are familiar with within the context of a campaign and what players try to do as their characters. Especially with a RPG like OD&D.
Finally the issue with games is that people generally want to play a specific version. Not something like it. Games like Monopoly, Diplomacy, Squad Leader, OD&D have a certain magic that even a near clone doesn't possess. OSRIC is a good example. It is a incredible resource for the AD&D hobby, but it not like reading, using, or playing with Gygax original rulebooks. So in general despite its role in invigorating the AD&D hobby, OSRIC will always be in 2nd place to the originals.
And unfortunately the charm of a specific version is definitely protected by copyright. So we are stuck unless there is an alternative that allows for a close clone. For AD&D that turned out to be a combination of OSRIC and availability of of PDFs and PoD. For the Fantasy Trip that turned out to be Steve Jackson taking advantage of the 35 year reversion rule and getting his rights back. Then putting out a new edition with a new presentation as he didn't have the rights to the original art or layout.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 10:23:49 GMT -6
Finally the issue with games is that people generally want to play a specific version. Not something like it. Games like Monopoly, Diplomacy, Squad Leader, OD&D have a certain magic that even a near clone doesn't possess. OSRIC is a good example. It is a incredible resource for the AD&D hobby, but it not like reading, using, or playing with Gygax original rulebooks. So in general despite its role in invigorating the AD&D hobby, OSRIC will always be in 2nd place to the originals. You are making a great case for preserving all the original language of a game, but improving the layout and organization, correcting typos and other known errors and releasing it anonymously in pdf so that people can have access to the real thing, but updated for accessibility. You could edit in a minor amount of helpful stuff by the original author, for instance in the case of OD&D, the Gygax FAQ in The Strategic Review. In other words, do anonymously what WotC would do if they had any sense. I wish I had the skills to do it, your idea is a good one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2021 10:29:22 GMT -6
As for OD&D, it made an appearance when they got their hands on a scan-worthy copy. They said as much as the time, and I have no time for conspiracy theories about them having it and deliberately holding it back, when they had already scanned and put up for sale random junk that almost no one was interested in, like the 2E Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix. It is not a conspiracy theory that it was held back because they did not think anyone would want it. It is true that an OD&D clone is what brought it to their attention. S&W opened the flood gates for OD&D clones. Their claim that they just didn't have scan worthy copy is a convenient fiction, much better than admitting they were clueless.
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Post by Desparil on Sept 30, 2021 17:59:21 GMT -6
As for OD&D, it made an appearance when they got their hands on a scan-worthy copy. They said as much as the time, and I have no time for conspiracy theories about them having it and deliberately holding it back, when they had already scanned and put up for sale random junk that almost no one was interested in, like the 2E Monstrous Compendium Al-Qadim Appendix. It is not a conspiracy theory that it was held back because they did not think anyone would want it. It is true that an OD&D clone is what brought it to their attention. S&W opened the flood gates for OD&D clones. Their claim that they just didn't have scan worthy copy is a convenient fiction, much better than admitting they were clueless. Choose to believe whatever fanciful reason you like, but it's hogwash that they had a copy and chose not to post it when they've scanned and sold tons of stuff that was no demand for since Day 1. There's tons of other examples besides the one Al-Qadim book that I cited, but I chose that specifically because it has a review from 2003 so it's easily verifiable* that it's been up there since near the beginning. Meanwhile, big-name 1E books like Deities & Demigods, Fiend Folio, and Unearthed Arcana weren't available until years later. You can argue that they were leaving money on the table by not giving their online sales department an "eBay budget" to go out and buy copies of these books to scan, but to claim they "did not think anyone would want" these significant, popular titles is absurd when they were willing to post a Monstrous Compendium from a campaign setting that wasn't even popular when it was brand new. * For some reason, many of the older products have a listed "Date Added" of 2013 despite having actually been for sale for much longer; for example, the BECMI Rules Cyclopedia's store page says it was added to the catalog July 02, 2013 yet the earliest review is dated 08/19/2003.
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aramis
Level 4 Theurgist
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Post by aramis on Sept 30, 2021 21:04:13 GMT -6
Well you folks might want to wait before arguing out what edition is worst, Seems like 6E (5.5?) is on the horizon for 2024 according to scuttlebutt/conversation during D&D Celebration. It's D&D 50 Year Anniversary Edition... and it should surprise no-one at all. the name "6th ed" was mentioned in one of the interviews. Expect all kinds of 50-year marketing.
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aramis
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 170
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Post by aramis on Sept 30, 2021 21:14:57 GMT -6
WotC bought and buried a number of smaller games before it bought out TSR. Most of them not very well known. Which is part of why the FTC got all up in their purchase of TSR.
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aramis
Level 4 Theurgist
Posts: 170
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Post by aramis on Sept 30, 2021 21:19:41 GMT -6
One idea I've toyed with over the years is to have HD be based upon race (as it is in Rolemaster), and adjust up one size for fighters, down one for wizards and normal men... I used this in a variant AD&D 2E campaign, it was popular enough...
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