The Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld

[jeffb]

I see the term tossed around a bit, and I understand it.

WHO has published one? 13th Age has it's "Living Dungeons" (which are not quite the same), but I'm looking for O/TSR examples.

[jeffb]

Not too popular an idea, apparently.

[cadriel]

I wrote a few posts musing about the idea of the mythic underworld on my blog:
initiativeone.blogspot.com/search/label/mythic%20underworld

[scottenkainen]

I'm not sure what you mean. My concept of a living dungeon is one that generates its own monsters and treasure and can change its own layout over time. But this could explain almost any dungeon.

[jeffb]

Sept 8, 2021 9:26:08 GMT -6 scottenkainen said:

I'm not sure what you mean. My concept of a living dungeon is one that generates its own monsters and treasure and can change its own layout over time. But this could explain almost any dungeon.

Google brings up a goodly amount of discussion in the OSR-phere over the years

Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld

[jeffb]

And here is the product blurb from 13th Age's most infamous living dungeon-

Can you kill the dungeon before it kills you?

In 13th Age, living dungeons slither up through the underworld and invade the surface lands. The Stone Thief is the most ancient and cunning of its kind; a vast monster that preys on the cities and structures you love, swallows them, and remakes them into more deathtrap-filled levels inside itself. Now, it's hunting YOU.

For players:
Embark on a saga of madness, revenge and giant monsters

Aid or thwart the schemes of the Icons as they battle for control of the dungeon

Slay, loot and survive deep in the bowels of the earth

Destroy this age-old threat forever

For GMs:
A monstrous campaign covering the entire Champion tier (4th to 8th level)

Thirteen levels of peril from the dungeon's opening Maw to the orc hordes of the Deep Keep, the terrors of the Pit of Undigested Ages, and the nightmare city beyond the Onyx Catacombs

New monsters, new treasures, new traps, and new factions for your 13th Age campaign

The Stone Thief rises. Enter it, find its secrets and defeat it ... or die trying.

[Zenopus]

I've always understood Philotomy Jurament's article (the one jeffb linked above) to be a rationalization for the rules for dungeons in OD&D as written, not a separate setting from the rules. A mindset to help modern-era players appreciate the rules of OD&D.

I don't know of any published dungeons that lean into the "Mythic Underworld", but there aren't too many published OD&D dungeons in general. It does seem like an opportunity for someone.

The one thing I wrote that would expand the concept beyond the OD&D rules is my "Fearsome Monster" - monsters generated by the dungeon in response to the characters entering. This was inspired by Robert Holdstock's Mythago Wood series (and named after some text by J. Eric Holmes), in which primordial forests recreate ancient, often-forgotten ancestral myths from the minds of intruders.

[derv]

I've never given it much thought but the term mythic underworld seems aptly applied.

It essentially expresses the carde blanche procedural permission of dungeon design (make it up).

The underworld is the great unexplored- no one can authoritatively say what is down there beyond great mystery, great danger, and great reward. Above the surface there are only shadows and echoes to be found in legends and fairy tales.

[doublejig2]

Sept 8, 2021 15:20:44 GMT -6 derv said:

I've never given it much thought but the term mythic underworld seems aptly applied.

It essentially expresses the carde blanche procedural permission of dungeon design (make it up).

The underworld is the great unexplored- no one can authoritatively say what is down there beyond great mystery, great danger, and great reward. Above the surface there are only shadows and echoes to be found in legends and fairy tales.

Agree; and adventurers have to earn the right to speak of such things, but even so, who would be their audience? Who in their right minds would listen to these tales of danger and horror? Not your typical city dweller, eh.

[jeffb]

This is the key bit from Jason's (I believe PJ= Jason Cone, IIRC) post-

a place where the normal laws of reality may not apply, and may be bent, warped, or broken. Not merely an underground site or a lair, not sane, the underworld gnaws on the physical world like some chaotic cancer. It is inimical to men; the dungeon, itself, opposes and obstructs the adventurers brave enough to explore it.

This is distinctly different from Gygax's published works for AD&D or even his OD&D "tournament" efforts such as the original Tomb and Tsojconth. And of course later we would get  "sensible dungeon ecology" as TSR moved on into the 80s and 90s. I don't recall anything else from the 70s 3PP that was similar either (say from Judges Guild, or Hargrave, etc.,)

Because I don't pay much attention to the whole megadungeon aspect of the OSR I was just wondering if anyone had written anything. I've seen some discussion elsewhere on the net, but that is all, I guess. I believe  there is an article on the Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld, perhaps by Jason in either Knockspell #1 or #2, but as my copies are in storage, I can't check. Or maybe it was grodog  ?

I'm actually kind of surprised and yet, not surprised that it is/was 13th Age that took the ball and ran with the idea. (and upped the Gonzo).

[Porphyre]

I never played long enough for this: the fist levels are "normal enough", the deeper ones (those my players never reach) are the weirder.

[Melan]

Appropriately enough, The Darkness Beneath, which is strongly linked to these forums, and got published in various Fight On! issues, comes rather close to the idea: it starts out relatively normal, and gets progressively stranger as you descend deeper. Not to the extent of massively breaking the laws of physics, but the lower levels are weird.

[Starbeard]

There was an OSR game some years ago that — I think — had an Arabian Nights flair to it, and which leaned pretty heavily — I think — on the Underdark As Mythic Reality concept. I can't for the life of me remember the name or find it, but I do remember it was reviewed on a podcast or three. The only thing I remember distinctly is that it had a house rule where you rerolled your HD fresh at the start of every day in the Dungeon.

I think the concept of pitting an Underdark Reality vs an Overworld Reality works great — as a certain type of dungeon for a certain type of campaign. Mostly I don't think it really ever comes up in a game as much as the bloggers seem to think it does, it's generally just an amusing conversation for the smoking room. If your group has no compulsive naysayers then there's no need to explain why the rules are the way they are, you just play and everyone accepts the game.

But some players are scoffing skeptics by nature, and their enjoyment comes from making sure that verisimilitude is being addressed appropriately. For them (and everyone else at the table) to have fun, it's good to have that rationalizing retcon handy that will satisfy their need for verisimilitude.

As a side example: I couldn't get my old regular group interested in First Edition at all, until I finally came up with a "campaign setting" that rationalized all of the wonky AD&D rules as part of the literal realities of the Prime Material Plane. Then suddenly they found it all rather fun. I also got to have fun coming up with a setting that explained stuff like why magic-users can't wield swords, or why stealing gold begets experience, so it was a win-win really.

[grodog]

Sept 8, 2021 18:44:15 GMT -6 jeffb said:

This is the key bit from Jason's (I believe PJ= Jason Cone, IIRC) post-

a place where the normal laws of reality may not apply, and may be bent, warped, or broken. Not merely an underground site or a lair, not sane, the underworld gnaws on the physical world like some chaotic cancer. It is inimical to men; the dungeon, itself, opposes and obstructs the adventurers brave enough to explore it.

This is distinctly different from Gygax's published works for AD&D or even his OD&D "tournament" efforts such as the original Tomb and Tsojconth. And of course later we would get  "sensible dungeon ecology" as TSR moved on into the 80s and 90s. I don't recall anything else from the 70s 3PP that was similar either (say from Judges Guild, or Hargrave, etc.,)

Because I don't pay much attention to the whole megadungeon aspect of the OSR I was just wondering if anyone had written anything. I've seen some discussion elsewhere on the net, but that is all, I guess.

It sounds a bit like you’re working from the Dungeon as Adversary, but carried a step or four further—Castle Greyhawk meets Moorcock’s Agak and Gagak, perhaps?

Sept 8, 2021 18:44:15 GMT -6 jeffb said:

I believe  there is an article on the Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld, perhaps by Jason in either Knockspell #1 or #2, but as my copies are in storage, I can't check. Or maybe it was grodog  ?

You might be thinking of some of my From Kuroth’s Quill articles, Jeff— they’re linked as part of my Knockspell index at grodog.blogspot.com/2017/05/knockspell-magazine-master-index.html in case either jogs your memory further??

Jason did publish an extract of his MU posts in KS too, as I recall.

Allan.

[jeffb]

Sept 13, 2021 18:31:10 GMT -6 grodog said:

Sept 8, 2021 18:44:15 GMT -6 jeffb said:

This is the key bit from Jason's (I believe PJ= Jason Cone, IIRC) post-

This is distinctly different from Gygax's published works for AD&D or even his OD&D "tournament" efforts such as the original Tomb and Tsojconth. And of course later we would get  "sensible dungeon ecology" as TSR moved on into the 80s and 90s. I don't recall anything else from the 70s 3PP that was similar either (say from Judges Guild, or Hargrave, etc.,)

Because I don't pay much attention to the whole megadungeon aspect of the OSR I was just wondering if anyone had written anything. I've seen some discussion elsewhere on the net, but that is all, I guess.

It sounds a bit like you’re working from the Dungeon as Adversary, but carried a step or four further—Castle Greyhawk meets Moorcock’s Agak and Gagak, perhaps?

Sept 8, 2021 18:44:15 GMT -6 jeffb said:

I believe  there is an article on the Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld, perhaps by Jason in either Knockspell #1 or #2, but as my copies are in storage, I can't check. Or maybe it was grodog  ?

You might be thinking of some of my From Kuroth’s Quill articles, Jeff— they’re linked as part of my Knockspell index at grodog.blogspot.com/2017/05/knockspell-magazine-master-index.html in case either jogs your memory further??

Jason did publish an extract of his MU posts in KS too, as I recall.

Allan.

Thank you Sir! Yes, Knockspell #2 looks to have the article I recall from Jason, and I do believe I was also getting things confused with your Kuroth's Quill articles. I might have to pick these issues up on PDF as it looks like my hardcopies are going to remain in storage for some time!


I had forgot about Agak and Gagak. It's been about 40 years since I've read those.

[jeffb]

Forgot to add- SPOILER ALERT FOR A0 THE RISING KNIGHT (Castles & Crusades)


V
V




















The main dungeon/temple in this adventure is sentient- IIRC it's infused with the essence of a Demon who served Unklar during the Winter's Dark or something similar. Beings are attracted to/compelled to visit the temple and either become servants or sacrifices. The dungeon totally messes with the PCs by creating illusionary walls and such. Great adventure. That's the type of thing I like.

[grodog]

Sept 14, 2021 8:32:40 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Yes, Knockspell #2 looks to have the article I recall from Jason, and I do believe I was also getting things confused with your Kuroth's Quill articles. I might have to pick these issues up on PDF as it looks like my hardcopies are going to remain in storage for some time!

My articles are free and on the blog, and you can also download Jason's Musings in PDF (based on his old web site) from grey-elf.com/ (where they're hosted with permission).

Allan.

[jeffb]

Sept 14, 2021 16:08:03 GMT -6 grodog said:

Sept 14, 2021 8:32:40 GMT -6 jeffb said:

Yes, Knockspell #2 looks to have the article I recall from Jason, and I do believe I was also getting things confused with your Kuroth's Quill articles. I might have to pick these issues up on PDF as it looks like my hardcopies are going to remain in storage for some time!

My articles are free and on the blog, and you can also download Jason's Musings in PDF (based on his old web site) from grey-elf.com/ (where they're hosted with permission).

Allan.

Excellent, thank you for the FYI. I do believe the first link I posted is the entirety of Jason's "Mythic Underworld" as published in his compilation volume*, unfortunately. No expansion, and I'm getting the feeling the Knockspell article may likely be another "duplicate". I had hoped he would expand upon the ideas presented in the initial article at some point.

For some reason I've developed a large interest in this idea lately. Maybe as I've been delving back into my Runequest materials following Steve's passing. T&T has touched upon this as well in brief moments of certain Solos.




*which I do have on my computer somewhere, and recommend to all here that may not be aware of it's existence ! thegreyelf has a great page over there with lots of fun bits!

[Vile Traveller]

Speaking of the Mythic Underworld, I have decided that dungeons make noise.

[jeffb]

Nov 26, 2022 8:47:27 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Speaking of the Mythic Underworld, I have decided that dungeons make noise.

That's creepy as..you know what. Love it. Thanks for posting that.

And definitely in the line of what type of things would be going on in a "Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld", AFAIC.

[doublejig2]

Nice. Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, anyone?

[Vile Traveller]

Nov 26, 2022 9:31:04 GMT -6 doublejig2 said:

Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl, anyone?

You want to stay away from them frost giants.

[doublejig2]

And yet with the hill giants slain at the Steading of the Hill Giant Chief, the party must continue!

[dicebro]

Here’s a link to a list of many mythic underworlds: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underworld

[barbaribunny]

Sept 13, 2021 10:50:46 GMT -6 Starbeard said:

There was an OSR game some years ago that — I think — had an Arabian Nights flair to it, and which leaned pretty heavily — I think — on the Underdark As Mythic Reality concept. I can't for the life of me remember the name or find it, but I do remember it was reviewed on a podcast or three. The only thing I remember distinctly is that it had a house rule where you rerolled your HD fresh at the start of every day in the Dungeon.

I know it's a year later, but that's The Nightmares Underneath. It has an original spin on a lot of things, but its dungeons-as-literal-intrusions-from-another-plane idea is particularly well developed and thought through.

[Zenopus]

foster1941 wrote a post a few months ago about the history of the concept:

On "The Dungeon As A Mythic Underworld"

[dwayanu]

I’m not aware of a published example, but I’m not up to date on what dungeons have been published.

The basic concept is how I myself envisioned the D&D premise when introduced to it in 1976 (just playing, not having read any of the materials). Subsequently, I’ve seen the tendency to make the underworld/dungeons not especially weird compared with the surface world (partly because the latter itself gets stranger).

Anyhow, I came to the game with some acquaintance with Greek, Celtic and Norse myths, and with fairy tales with a similar theme.

I like it for letting whatever will make for a fun game being admissible regardless of naturalistic constraints. Going the other way, though, it can also guide design away from the arbitrarily whimsical.

Someone once said that fantasy is either about perennial things or about nothing at all. Myths were composed to explore primeval aspects of human nature. The hero’s journey in a katabasis can make for a richer dungeon game than merely technical challenges of getting plunder and getting out.

[dwayanu]

When I eventually got the books and became a referee, I likewise saw in the Wilderness described therein an evocation of Broceliande in the Arthurian cycle.

Naturally, we don’t want the typical literary situation in which a character’s first adventure is so life-changing that it’s also the last! To keep it going through multiple levels calls for more subtle developments. One might call the ‘mythic’ element rather a seasoning for the main ingredients.

Returning to something I noted previously, I think a corollary is keeping the “fields we know” relatively mundane — fantastic, but not too much so. I know I’m far from alone in seeing this ethos reflected more in “old school” illustrations than in recently fashionable ones.

That’s more important, I think, if a ‘megadungeon’ is the main focus of the campaign.

[tetramorph]

Thanks for digging this thread back up. Sorry I missed it the first time.

Agreeing with others, I would say that Philotomy coined the phrase to give a sense of how the original game posed something in between the categories of "fun house" on the one hand and "naturalism" on the other. A kind of planned funhouse with an internal logic but still free of any naturalism.

[barna10]

This thread has inspired me more than anything in quite awhile. The dungeon as a cancerous thing from below is just such a great concept.