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Post by aramis on Sept 6, 2021 16:53:20 GMT -6
My question is- What are YOUR 7 (or less) "Laws of Gaming"Use the rules, that's what they're there for. When in doubt, look it up; if you can't find it quickly, make a call and fix it later. Rules help create the setting you're playing in. It's not a competition betwixt players and the GM. Play for entertainment, but remember not all entertainment is "fun" nor "Funny"... Sometimes sad and/or poignant is entertaining, too. There is no script immunity. There is no script, only situations to be presented and reacted to. |
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 6, 2021 18:24:09 GMT -6
Your setting informs the rules, not the other way around. If I take nothing else from this thread, this point is pure gold. |
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Post by Zenopus on Sept 6, 2021 18:41:15 GMT -6
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 6, 2021 18:41:20 GMT -6
I can't improve on Jeff's list. So all I can add is:
The DM is always right.
No crying if your character dies, roll up a new one.
No, don't go that way I didn't plan for that.
Did you bring snacks? I don't DM for free.
I don't care what the rules say, this is my game.
The game is over when I say it is.
Pick up your garbage, don't leave a mess in my house.
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 6, 2021 18:46:34 GMT -6
There are always exceptions. Yep. Other than death and taxes there are always exceptions. |
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Post by captainjapan on Sept 6, 2021 19:04:45 GMT -6
tombowings said: I get that, but it has to be a rare gamer that, these days, plays as if published (not to mention licensed) settings never existed. I was under the impression that established settings like Marvel or James Bond or what-have-you are the push that gets some new, young, players to the table.
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Post by captainjapan on Sept 6, 2021 19:12:36 GMT -6
Thanks, Desparil, for the clarification. I guess I've outed myself as a non-5th Ed. player. It begs the question, though: Is Rob's player wrong to argue because he's a rules lawyer or is he just wrong because he's wrong? You weren't the one to call out rules lawyers, so I welcome anyone to answer me this: Can a referee also be a rules lawyer? |
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Post by captainjapan on Sept 6, 2021 19:20:46 GMT -6
I hope this doesn't come off as me just being pedantic, but could I have clarification on a few terms from the op, at least?. jeffb , what do you mean when you say game, rules, setting, and (I know I probably shouldn't have to ask) way. What is the difference between these four concepts, as you've used them in your seven laws of gaming? As an example, I take setting to be the real or imagined locale where the action takes place. I consider the rules to be the mechanics, such as throws of the dice to hit/ to save vs. being hit/ etc. The game would be the actual occurrence - the event that IS ”playing the game". Do you have something else in mind for these terms? Which one of these defines the spells/powers or the alien/creature races? |
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Post by jeffb on Sept 6, 2021 21:32:58 GMT -6
I hope this doesn't come off as me just being pedantic, but could I have clarification on a few terms from the op, at least?. jeffb , what do you mean when you say game, rules, setting, and (I know I probably shouldn't have to ask) way. What is the difference between these four concepts, as you've used them in your seven laws of gaming? As an example, I take setting to be the real or imagined locale where the action takes place. I consider the rules to be the mechanics, such as throws of the dice to hit/ to save vs. being hit/ etc. The game would be the actual occurrence - the event that IS ”playing the game". Do you have something else in mind for these terms? Which one of these defines the spells/powers or the alien/creature races? I'd say you are pretty spot on at least as far as I am concerned. Mechanics are procedures-they go hand in hand with the rules. The Game/Gameplay is what we are doing at the table using our imagination, rules and the procedures the rules specify OR RULINGS when there are no rules for a given circumstance (and we may or may not use an existing procedure to help with that ruling). Setting is the fictional world that the game/gameplay takes place in. Not sure what you mean by "way".... As for the Spells/powers- these would be rules and procedure, informed by how magic works in your setting- It ties in with everything. I want to make sure people realize that I didn't post my "laws" as gospel, they are MY "laws" for MY games and my style. I want to know what YOUR laws are for YOUR game. Mine are there simply as an example. |
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Post by jeffb on Sept 6, 2021 21:38:18 GMT -6
I can't improve on Jeff's list. So all I can add is: The DM is always right. No crying if your character dies, roll up a new one. No, don't go that way I didn't plan for that. Did you bring snacks? I don't DM for free. I don't care what the rules say, this is my game. The game is over when I say it is. Pick up your garbage, don't leave a mess in my house. And because the DM is always right, he/she always chooses the Snacks. |
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Post by jeffb on Sept 6, 2021 21:42:09 GMT -6
Can a referee also be a rules lawyer? The referee is the person who applies the rules, and in cases where rules are not clear, makes a ruling or comes up with new rules. That is the definition of a referee. |
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Post by tombowings on Sept 6, 2021 23:55:27 GMT -6
tombowings said: I get that, but it has to be a rare gamer that, these days, plays as if published (not to mention licensed) settings never existed. I was under the impression that established settings like Marvel or James Bond or what-have-you are the push that gets some new, young, players to the table. I've never had problems finding players. If anything, my problem is too many players. As for growing the game, it's a non-issue. I'm not concerned with it at all. I also don't care what happens at other tables. If every other game in the world is set in the Forgotten Realms and uses 5e by the book, why should I care? My idea of fun need not apply to anyone else. Still, my ideal gaming Utopia involves every referee running a completely unique game. Unfortunately, Utopia is nowhere. |
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Post by jeffb on Sept 7, 2021 7:50:49 GMT -6
There is no one true way is one of my "laws". As I was discussing earlier, the rules were written to reflect what the founders saw as the setting for D&D, it just wasn't expressed in an overt fashion. If one wants to play with the implied setting exactly as written, that's no bone of contention with me. What I'm getting at is If you have a different setting in mind, then change the rules that will makes your game better/more fun. If on Planet Zzorg magic is more like Psionics and Vancian casting just doesn't fit, then change it. Don't change your creative vision and come up with a compromise to stay true to the rules from "On High" as Gary would put it. Even if you are publishing and compatibility might be a concern- I'm willing to bet that the majority of the T/OSR community when buying an XYZ supplement would like to see something new and a different spin than the SOS that's been done for the past 50 years. They may not love it, or use it 100%, but sometimes it's just the inspiration of the new/different thing that makes all the difference. |
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Post by jeffb on Sept 7, 2021 10:55:25 GMT -6
tombowings said: I get that, but it has to be a rare gamer that, these days, plays as if published (not to mention licensed) settings never existed. I was under the impression that established settings like Marvel or James Bond or what-have-you are the push that gets some new, young, players to the table. I can explain how I do it for Middle Earth and Star Wars. Rule #1- EVENTS and PERSONALITIES are subject to elimination and/or change. For Star Wars, I've run games that take place right after the battle of Yavin, and the only thing Canon is Episode IV (Original Theatrical release). Nothing else. Vader is not necessarily Luke's father. Luke's father was a Jedi Knight who was betrayed by Darth Vader as Obi Wan has stated. The Rebels had a great victory over the Death Star but now the Empire knows where their base is. I've run games that take place around the time of Episode I- but nothing in the tale of the Skywalker's has happened. There are the planets, and races, and equipment of the time period as we see in the movies, some personalities (Yoda or Bail Organa for example). For Middle Earth, I NEVER run in the time period of the the Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. I always default to the time period when The Witch King was on the rise and in conflict with Arnor or right around the time Angmar were defeated (personally I find this time period far more interesting than any other in Middle Earth History, and The Witch King a more interesting enemy) I try to avoid providing adventure elements where in game events could promote drastic changes in ME Lore, but if it happens, so what! It's a GAME. Canon be d**ned. I'm clear with people that if they want to act out or interact with the stories in the movies or books, they should probably find a different game to play in or run their own (and I'll give it a try as player!) |
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Post by scottenkainen on Sept 7, 2021 14:53:19 GMT -6
I'll go with captain japan's 1, 4-7; Tombowing's 6, ampleframework's 4, 6, 7; dungeonmonkey's 1, 2-4, 6, 7; tetramorph's 0, 1, 2; and aramis' 1, 2. So...20 laws of gaming?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 7:59:40 GMT -6
Can a referee also be a rules lawyer? Yes, unfortunately some referees are rules lawyers. IMO it is never fun to play in a game where the referee is a nit picking b*****d that is more concerned about the letter of the law, than whether or not anyone comes back for a second game. Of course, YMMV. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 8:01:30 GMT -6
I can't improve on Jeff's list. So all I can add is: The DM is always right. No crying if your character dies, roll up a new one. No, don't go that way I didn't plan for that. Did you bring snacks? I don't DM for free. I don't care what the rules say, this is my game. The game is over when I say it is.Pick up your garbage, don't leave a mess in my house. Sorry, it is 1 AM and I have to go.  |
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 10, 2021 19:41:49 GMT -6
Sorry, it is 1 AM and I have to go. But we're just getting started. We haven't even made it out of the tavern yet. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2021 21:51:28 GMT -6
Rule 6. Only use dice as an oracle when you are not sure of what the outcome of an action would be If I was to pick one rule, this one would be it. If I was to pick a second rule, that's it. And this is D&D for me, or OD&D at least, since "skills" IMO, pretty much killed the "first rule" of the game. Nowadays it seems like rolling dices are 90% of the fun for people, and the role playing and living some cool adventures are only kind of in there. I never liked Forgotten Realms but I think that the reason is, I was not introduced to classic FR... |
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tedopon
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Post by tedopon on Sept 10, 2021 22:46:02 GMT -6
1) Have fun, and try to make sure everyone else is as well.
2) Never have a plan for anything. The plot is far more engaging when it's written in real time.
3) The rules are for how your table plays the game, reinvent the wheel over and over if you have to until it works like you want it to. The books are just a starting point, and especially OD&D and 1e they're a poorly organized mess anyway.
3b) If you change the way something works on the fly in game, get a consensus from the table and then be consistent with that method until you have time to discuss the change outside of play.
4) There is no such thing as GM Cheating. The GM is doing several orders of magnitude more work than anyone else at the table so even if it's obvious they're cheating, mind your own business because you're only noticing it when it goes against you and I guarantee most GMs "cheat" to help the players way more than they do to hurt them.
5) Debating or even arguing about rules is tolerable in moderation, but can we do it after the session?
6) Every group (no matter what rpg you're playing, IMO) needs at least one person who never lets off the gas and takes massive risks even when they know it's a bad idea.
7) Beg, borrow and steal ideas from everywhere...preferably places that aren't gaming manuals.
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Post by scottenkainen on Sept 10, 2021 22:58:08 GMT -6
#1) Always, always, always try to make sure you have at least one rules lawyer at the table.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 1:00:43 GMT -6
Sorry, it is 1 AM and I have to go. But we're just getting started. We haven't even made it out of the tavern yet. Not my problem, we've already been here 7 hours with these indecisive j**ks and I am out of here.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 1:05:31 GMT -6
#1) Always, always, always try to make sure you have at least one rules lawyer at the table. Why? I mean really, why? So when no gaming happens because this d****d b*****d, can't shut up and let some gaming happen, you can have the fun of throwing him out so the rest of you can have some fun gaming? |
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tedopon
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Post by tedopon on Sept 11, 2021 7:21:50 GMT -6
#1) Always, always, always try to make sure you have at least one rules lawyer at the table. Why? I mean really, why? So when no gaming happens because this d****d b*****d, can't shut up and let some gaming happen, you can have the fun of throwing him out so the rest of you can have some fun gaming? BITD our Rule Lawyer missed a session and the assassin killed his character. He stopped showing up after that. |
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Post by jeffb on Sept 11, 2021 7:27:15 GMT -6
Why? I mean really, why? So when no gaming happens because this d****d b*****d, can't shut up and let some gaming happen, you can have the fun of throwing him out so the rest of you can have some fun gaming? BITD our Rule Lawyer missed a session and the assassin killed his character. He stopped showing up after that.  Love it! |
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tedopon
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Post by tedopon on Sept 11, 2021 9:50:12 GMT -6
The character that guy played was something else. He was a "Lawful Good" cleric. The assassin in our group was LE, and was consistently more ethical and just in his behavior (he was basically a black operator for a church). The Rule Lawyer cleric routinely complained about having to tithe or just didn't, punched down to innocent people with cruelty on the regular, and my favorite thing he did as that character (LG cleric)...another PC had been caught stealing from a local warlord. His sentence was death by crucifixion. The cleric went to the crucifixion and taunted and tortured the guy as he was dying in the town square in front of several dozen witnesses.
HA I also remember one time the bishop of his church asked him "what should we do to help this settlement (meaning charitable actions, public works, you know "nice things")?"
His answer was "train me to make healing potions."
Oh, and he never healed anyone unless they were on death's door...except for himself, who was always topped up on hit points and never entered combat willingly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 11:52:01 GMT -6
4) There is no such thing as GM Cheating. The GM is doing several orders of magnitude more work than anyone else at the table so even if it's obvious they're cheating, mind your own business because you're only noticing it when it goes against you and I guarantee most GMs "cheat" to help the players way more than they do to hurt them. ... 6) Every group (no matter what rpg you're playing, IMO) needs at least one person who never lets off the gas and takes massive risks even when they know it's a bad idea. About the 4th one, I agree (almost) 100%. Unless the GM is really playing against the players or obfuscating them too much, as I have some friends that when they're GMing their favorite NPCs are always taking the spotlights to themselves, never dying or outpowering the PCs in absurd ways,then I agree that GM "cheating" is just a way to trying making things more fun. Sometimes I even consider if having "HP" is a good idea for some creatures (like "bosses"), that's because some players expect so much for the final battle that either losing the battle pathetically or finishing it too soon might take a bit of the magical aspect of it. I'm not against player characters dying though, a lot have died in my games, but sometimes it's just not the most fun outcome I guess. A high-level character dying for a low level creature because... reasons... might be a lot frustrating, specially in games without healing options and/or resurrection, I would cheat in there as well, I wish my players to die heroically. Their characters I mean.  About the 6th, that's something that made me frustrated a lot. Sometimes you just want to have some adventure or to do proper roleplaying, but you end up being punished by not meta-gaming. Some of the most epic moments that I remember... when bad ideas passed through by some unexpected luck in the dices.  |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2021 12:17:30 GMT -6
The character that guy played was something else. He was a "Lawful Good" cleric. The assassin in our group was LE, and was consistently more ethical and just in his behavior (he was basically a black operator for a church). The Rule Lawyer cleric routinely complained about having to tithe or just didn't, punched down to innocent people with cruelty on the regular, and my favorite thing he did as that character (LG cleric)...another PC had been caught stealing from a local warlord. His sentence was death by crucifixion. The cleric went to the crucifixion and taunted and tortured the guy as he was dying in the town square in front of several dozen witnesses. HA I also remember one time the bishop of his church asked him "what should we do to help this settlement (meaning charitable actions, public works, you know "nice things")?" His answer was "train me to make healing potions." Oh, and he never healed anyone unless they were on death's door...except for himself, who was always topped up on hit points and never entered combat willingly. Hmm, as the DM, I would have called out his alignment change to Chaotic Evil and is status as an anti-cleric pretty quickly. |
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Post by rsdean on Sept 11, 2021 14:45:52 GMT -6
I get that, but it has to be a rare gamer that, these days, plays as if published (not to mention licensed) settings never existed. I was under the impression that established settings like Marvel or James Bond or what-have-you are the push that gets some new, young, players to the table. Is it as rare as that? I know that I’m not a new gamer (nor a young gamer), but both of my sons are players, and neither has ever had any interest in doing anything but homebrewing their own campaigns. Older son is in two games currently, neither run by him, and I know that at least one of them is a homebrew. |
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Post by scottenkainen on Sept 11, 2021 17:52:53 GMT -6
Rules lawyers are the best players. I would never want to play with someone who didn't respect their contributions to the game table.
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