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Post by jeffb on Aug 26, 2021 7:30:17 GMT -6
Mods- please move as appropriate- like 13th Age, unsure of which category to place. Third Party Classic? Other? Def not a Simulacrum.
Got an email from The Trolls stating that the 3rd print of the Castle Keepers Guide is now out for general sale. I guess it was a Kickstarter a year or more ago, but I never bothered to back it.
Does anyone know how much this differs from the 1st and 2nd prints? Is it just another layout upgrade and some (much needed) errata like the PHBs usually are, or is it like the most recent Monsters & Treasure which was a significant expansion upon the previous volumes?
The marketing blurb they sent me doesn't specify what, if anything, is new/additional.
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Post by jeffb on Aug 26, 2021 19:53:32 GMT -6
Found my answer. Looks like some additional art and some maps are the only "big" changes. Disappointing for sure- I was hoping we would see a expansion of the core books based on the upgrade to M&T.
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 85
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 27, 2021 4:01:44 GMT -6
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Post by jeffb on Aug 27, 2021 6:23:27 GMT -6
Thanks Tim- I saw that last night and it was the impetus for my follow up post. :thinkingoutloud: Wondering if C&C is "washed up", creatively. They haven't done anything of note, other than "reprints" and "cleanups" and "collected in one volume" in quite some time- the creativity has dropped of the face of the earth. I know in recent years they had a handful of setting products based on a novel/some author's works, but it never took off and has been on their "discount rack" forever. C&C needs a blood transfusion. That said, I don't know what I'd ask for them to do, product wise. IDK what would get me excited to dive into C&C proper* again. *not including Met alpha, Amazing Adventures, Victorious (which intrigues me), etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2021 8:01:02 GMT -6
I wouldn't expect their errata to ever be fixed completely. It's pointed out again and again across multiple print runs and persists. I think Troll Lord is happy with the game as it is. They don't seem to want to raise its profile or attach themselves to osr branding. They did work with online platforms like roll20 to integrate into that but it seems like the days where they were the big topic of excitement are far behind us now. (All one needs to do to see how huge a thing C&C was to grognards in 2004 is go to the earliest simulacrum threads at Dragonsfoot.)
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Post by jeffb on Aug 27, 2021 9:55:14 GMT -6
I wouldn't expect their errata to ever be fixed completely. It's pointed out again and again across multiple print runs and persists. I think Troll Lord is happy with the game as it is. They don't seem to want to raise its profile or attach themselves to osr branding. They did work with online platforms like roll20 to integrate into that but it seems like the days where they were the big topic of excitement are far behind us now. (All one needs to do to see how huge a thing C&C was to grognards in 2004 is go to the earliest simulacrum threads at Dragonsfoot.) Errata fixes?? from TLG? We have a better chance of Gary coming back from the grave to do Castle Zagyg! I don't, and never did , expect them to revise the core game- that's been set from the get-go when we were all discussing the initial game BITD on DF and the old TLG forums, etc.. I was there Gandalf.....3000 years ago.... (perhaps Finarvyn has some memories here as he was an official playtester). Over the years it would come up and Steve and Davis would make themselves clear again- no new "editions", just light "revisions", adventures, and extra optional crunchy things (e.g. Adventurer's Backpack, or Black Librum of Nartarus) I stopped being "mad" at The Trolls for being The Trolls about 10-12 years ago. I accepted that they just do their own thing, revising the looks of their products but not always the quality. I guess I'm just looking for something to make me excited about playing C&C again. There was a time when they were churning out much more creative products and not just reprints. Take a look at the sheer number of adventures, and sourcebooks that are in the catalog. Different settings with a healthy amount of support-Erde/Aihrde, CZ/Yggsburgh (I know I know, Gail), The Haunted Highlands, the Codex series. Gaxmoor. Aihrde I think is played out after all the same materiual being done over and over in a new format. Casey is no longer interested in doing the Haunted Highlands (The Trolls did botch the hardcovers pretty badly for this, unfortunately). Jim Ward was a doing a fair amount of C&C products (check out Towers of Adventure). The list goes on. They have mostly focused on reprints and some 5E conversions in the last 5 years or so.
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phantomtim
Level 3 Conjurer
13th Age Enthusiast
Posts: 85
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Post by phantomtim on Aug 29, 2021 21:37:22 GMT -6
Wondering if C&C is "washed up", creatively. They haven't done anything of note, other than "reprints" and "cleanups" and "collected in one volume" in quite some time- the creativity has dropped of the face of the earth. I know in recent years they had a handful of setting products based on a novel/some author's works, but it never took off and has been on their "discount rack" forever. Off the top of my head, the Adventurers Backpack was a fun supplement. It offered a fresh take on several classes. It still felt like classic AD&D to me, but in a different way than the classes in the C&C PHB. That was the last sizeable release that immediately came to mind. Adtherpe's Natural Materials is the C&C take on herbalism and alchemy. It isn't groundbreaking, but it's 20 pages of fresh content for C&C (at least I haven't seen it appear in other books before). There's been a steady stream of adventures. Codex Egyptium was released within the past year. It's not a ton of content, but it's enough for me. As you noted, I'm not actually sure what else I'd want for C&C. I don't want to see it become something that it isn't, and at some point if they release too much material, I'm concerned it will end up in a situation like D&D 3.x did, where there's simply too much material for my liking. It's an interesting question, though. How much is too much? And what should C&C produce next to keep fans interested (or re-spark that interest for those who have already lost it)?
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Post by jeffb on Aug 30, 2021 9:41:48 GMT -6
Off the top of my head, the Adventurers Backpack was a fun supplement. It offered a fresh take on several classes. It still felt like classic AD&D to me, but in a different way than the classes in the C&C PHB. That was the last sizeable release that immediately came to mind. Adtherpe's Natural Materials is the C&C take on herbalism and alchemy. It isn't groundbreaking, but it's 20 pages of fresh content for C&C (at least I haven't seen it appear in other books before). There's been a steady stream of adventures. Codex Egyptium was released within the past year. It's not a ton of content, but it's enough for me. As you noted, I'm not actually sure what else I'd want for C&C. I don't want to see it become something that it isn't, and at some point if they release too much material, I'm concerned it will end up in a situation like D&D 3.x did, where there's simply too much material for my liking. It's an interesting question, though. How much is too much? And what should C&C produce next to keep fans interested (or re-spark that interest for those who have already lost it)? Not that they have been idle- I'm definitely not saying that. The types of products however have changed and unfortunately they are things I am really not interested in - Classes for example, or herbalism. The CODEX series has limited appeal for myself now too-Having seen take after take on Earth's mythology in RPGS since the late 1970s, that's not particularly new or creative, IMHO of course. Now that I think about it, they are going down the AD&D product path...from 30+ years ago. I think they need some more creative blood to jump start the C&C line. I know they did that hallowed oracle line and I'm not sure who the author is, but that seems to have fizzled right from the start- it was based on some sort of obscure novels or graphic novels or something and was a mini campaign- sort of Dragonlance-like is what I gathered (play out this bit from the novels). It's been sitting in the $10 harccover "bin" on the website for a year or more, so I'm guessing the harcore C&C fanbase didn't care for it. They've re-done Aihrde/Erde several times, and they have re-done the A series module lineup several times. The Haunted Highlands (The most promising thing they had as campaign settings go, IM0) has been dead in the water for 7 or 8 years. Jim Ward seems to have placed his eggs in the MA basket wherever he goes (Don't blame him, but he did do some cool stuff for C&C over the years). I just don't see much creative spark there in the C&C line, proper. A fresh coat of paint on the house every few years (AKA KS reprints) And at this point, it's probably just not lucrative enough for most free-lancers. They can go pump out 5E compatible products or DCC compatible products, work with the DMs Guild/DTRPG/Goodman or even publish on their own and get better exposure and returns. Why bother with C&C?
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 9, 2021 4:56:53 GMT -6
I was the author on the Hallowed Oracle books. The campaign was actually 100% original and NOT drawn from the books at all. The author of the novel line is a great guy but he was tough to work with. Every time I'd ask for information about his setting, world, or the like, he'd say, "I don't know. I don't remember. Just make something up and maybe I'll use it in the books."
To which I thought, "I wasn't put on this project to world build for YOU."
But in the end, the player's guide offers some really fun options for new character classes, a color-based magic system, and some other bits and bobs. The campaign I'm pretty proud of, actually. I had fun writing it.
As for the future of C&C, you're right; we've been doing a LOT of reprints lately, but we have to keep core books in print and they are time consuming to fund and produce, since we rarely do straight reprints: we update errata and layout with every printing to keep improving the game. While it might seem incremental, that's because we always promised never to do a second edition. We don't want to be like certain other companies out there, promising "No second edition ever!" then saying, "Oh, we never promised that. By the way, all those books you've bought over the past 15 years are no longer good with our new edition."
We have big plans for some creative stuff in the near future, but as you've pointed out we have a lot of Kickstarters to finish fulfilling and there's only a few of us to work on it all. When we get through we will be doing more with Amazing Adventures, and some multiversal supplements for C&C that will open up planar adventuring, crossovers between our games, and create a full multiverse for the AA/C&C worlds.
I personally would be interested in the kinds of things that WOULD get you excited about playing C&C again? When you say you'd like to see more creativity come back, what general types of things would light the fire for you? Feedback like this is valuable to us, as we've been looking to expand our reach.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 9, 2021 7:04:37 GMT -6
I think that one "problem" that C&C encounters (and DCC RPG, for that matter) is that the Trolls are interested in NOT changing the system too much. If you have a 1st print of the rulebook it's pretty much the same rules as any other printing. That in itself tends to discourage too much innovation, but it's great for the consumer in that you don't need to rebuy the thing constantly. Compare this to D&D which has total overhauls and new editions every few years, so D&D is a lot more innovative but you have to rebuy each edition to keep up. I see advantages to each.
If one looks around there are some neat things for C&C. Jason's "Amazing Adventures" (original edition) is very compatible with C&C. James Ward did a horror based boxed set (Twisted Lands? something like that) and the CKG has some neat ideas that nobody sees because they played for years with the PH and M&T and never needed the CKG. So, there are some innovations for C&C but they aren't as obvious as for other RPGs.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 9, 2021 7:33:59 GMT -6
I was the author on the Hallowed Oracle books. The campaign was actually 100% original and NOT drawn from the books at all. The author of the novel line is a great guy but he was tough to work with. Every time I'd ask for information about his setting, world, or the like, he'd say, "I don't know. I don't remember. Just make something up and maybe I'll use it in the books." To which I thought, "I wasn't put on this project to world build for YOU." But in the end, the player's guide offers some really fun options for new character classes, a color-based magic system, and some other bits and bobs. The campaign I'm pretty proud of, actually. I had fun writing it. As for the future of C&C, you're right; we've been doing a LOT of reprints lately, but we have to keep core books in print and they are time consuming to fund and produce, since we rarely do straight reprints: we update errata and layout with every printing to keep improving the game. While it might seem incremental, that's because we always promised never to do a second edition. We don't want to be like certain other companies out there, promising "No second edition ever!" then saying, "Oh, we never promised that. By the way, all those books you've bought over the past 15 years are no longer good with our new edition." We have big plans for some creative stuff in the near future, but as you've pointed out we have a lot of Kickstarters to finish fulfilling and there's only a few of us to work on it all. When we get through we will be doing more with Amazing Adventures, and some multiversal supplements for C&C that will open up planar adventuring, crossovers between our games, and create a full multiverse for the AA/C&C worlds. I personally would be interested in the kinds of things that WOULD get you excited about playing C&C again? When you say you'd like to see more creativity come back, what general types of things would light the fire for you? Feedback like this is valuable to us, as we've been looking to expand our reach. Thanks for the insight Jason- Much appreciated. Can you tell us something about this Hallowed Oracle setting then? The Crossover/Multiverse supplement bit sounds interesting for sure. As an example- Rise of the Red God with some extra bits to help GMs make it fit C&C or Victorious timelines better would be very cool. I also loved the toolkit books like Engineering Dungeons and Jim's Towers of Adventure. As I mentioned upthread, I would like to the The Haunted Highlands make a resurgence, but I know that's unlikely. The Hardcover, while excellent in in it's scope is riddled with errors and poor production (tiny unusable dungeon maps, e.g.) I'm going to ponder a bit more on what I would like to see, and I'll follow up.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 9, 2021 8:47:48 GMT -6
While not for C&C, I'm impressed that the Trolls have published Jim Ward's massive The Starship Warden.
But I cannot find a review of it anywhere. Surely someone has purchased it. And surely that someone has the desire to post even a 100-word mini-review?
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Post by jeffb on Sept 9, 2021 12:33:54 GMT -6
While not for C&C, I'm impressed that the Trolls have published Jim Ward's massive The Starship Warden. But I cannot find a review of it anywhere. Surely someone has purchased it. And surely that someone has the desire to post even a 100-word mini-review? Maybe try the TLG DISCORD server. That seems to get way more traffic than the TLG forums or anywhere else on the net as far as I can tell. Also, I'm guessing it's so big and so recently released it's probably going to take people awhile to really go through it.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 9, 2021 14:20:26 GMT -6
There are something like 8 novels in the Hallowed Oracle setting. They are something of an apocalyptic/post-apocalyptic fantasy setting which has to do with a prophecy of the Abyss Walker, someone who through an act of love will end up tearing open the gates of Hell and unleasing demons upon the world. The campaign setting we published is something of a prequel to the novels, so it has nothing to do with the actual story of the books--none of us at TLG are big fans of games with metaplot, so if we were going to present the world we figured let's do an era the books haven't covered, but still give you all the tools you need if you DO want to play in the time period of the books (if that makes sense). It's been a long while since I delved into it. I remember the magic system was unique; it dealt with pulling threads of colored energy to mix and match to create spell effects. We did include a writeup of the world in the Player's Guide to the Hallowed Oracle. Give me a bit to read and refresh myself and I'll get back with some more detail.
Shane used to have a website with all of it, but it seems to be down. I'm not sure if he's even publishing the books anymore. For my money, the campaign and player's guide books are both good for any C&C game in just about any setting.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 12, 2021 10:53:46 GMT -6
OK here's some things I've been thinking about for C&C's future
Some of it is clean-up/consolidation which I will go through first-
Right now, it's feast or famine for C&C- Even though the CKG is not a requirement, two expensive hardcovers (and no adventure material included) are too much of a $ sink for someone trying the game out. And then there is the C&C quickstart....
The current quickstart I appreciate for being free, however it is a poor product for it's intended use. It lacks basic rules for some core things to play the game. E.g. Although as an old timer I like the idea of just spell names and a brief sentence with little to no mechanical details for spells, it's obviously done to reduce word count/save layout space. YET- There are constant references and mentions of things that are in the full PHB that are not utilized in the quickstart, or taking things too far that don't need to be taken that far. e.g. references to other classes like Assassins, providing a equipment list that is entirely too large for a QS. It's fine to have a blurb saying "in the full game, you can be an X, Y, or Z too, and there is expanded equipment lists, and..." But in this QS it's wasted space. The QS is way too much cut and paste from the PHB and thus is overly verbose- especially the discussion about the SIEGE engine in multiple places. It needs to be written from scratch by somebody other than Davis or Steve and they need to give up some power to the Writer/Editor. Whomever it is needs to cut the flowery prose and get to the meat and potatoes when it comes to a quickstart or basic game. Finally the included adventure seems like an afterthought and is not terribly interesting or even an exciting S&S adventure. This was the case with the CZ quickstart version too.
C&C needs a single hardback that is similar to the Moldvay and Cook/Marsh books combined. Or WOTCs 5E Basic rules- Core 4 classes and races up to level 12-15 (or whatever). Combat and Basic Siege Engine (Edited heavily for clarity and reduced repetition). Appropriate Spell list with full descriptions for Clerics and Wizards up to whatever level. A proper Basic GM section, a selection of basic monsters with minimal fiction. A selection of basic magic items and treasures. a brief intro to Aihrde (half a dozen pages at most) and a solid adventure that packs a lot into a minimum # of pages (like The Rising Knight) that is part sandbox and a dungeon so it has enough play/areas for a few sessions and GM expansion- and of course it leads into the A series adventures for future sales. A complete game with adventure in the 200-250 page range, at that $39.99 price point. Doesn't need to be heavy on art, but has to be cream of the crop of previous pieces- few really good pieces are better than a bunch of mediocre ones. It needs to have a unique Look/Trade Dress from the PHB/MT/CKG- IT needs to be flashy and bold on the outside covers and spine. Not subdued with warm earthy colors for art and logos.
Adventures- Some of the other module series need some consolidation as physical and digital product like what was done with the A series- but not necessarily boxed sets. S Series. U series. C series. F series. Original DB series (without all the expansion materials of the hardcovers). Nearly all of these are small page count products that are very good gaming products, but not terribly good values for one's $, and still at 2005 production level. I have avoided buying the entirety of the other series' because of this (I will usually pick up a couple of them during the holiday sales when they are actually priced accordingly). $10 for 12 pages in S1, and 18 pages in S4 is pretty ridiculous. .
Aihrde needs another old style folio like they used to have (After Winter's Dark)- The current (and original) hardcover is too cumbersome a product for a DM new to the game. (and a cumbersome read ). My eyes completely glazed over reading both the original and new hardcovers. The folios are concise, to the point and give plenty of information for those who will make their own/expand setting with it, or whet the appetite for those who will buy the large hardback.
A new product to sell those Aihrde adventures and the setting could be small page count hardbacks instead- The Folio contents above mixed with A1-5. Then another hardback with A6-12. Then Aufstrag. All of these in the exclusive/unique/bold trade dress that the all in one hardback uses. Then offer the full PHB with ALL the additional classes that are not the core 4, including the ones in the Adventurer's Backpack( title is corny and misleading). Then the FULL M&T. and the FULL CKG as a book of options. All clearly marked as additional info/expansion/options. It's not adding new rules or revising rules it's just giving a different format- one that leads newcomers into a clearly marked set of all in one rules with a world and set of adventures to offer tons of game play, and an expanded game that is 1005 compatible (PHB,CKG,M&T)
The TLG online store/site is a mess- period and doesn't help for people who are trying to get a grasp on the game and it's products. C&C in particular suffers because there is SO MUCH PRODUCT and it is POORLY ORGANIZED AND DESCRIBED. It's extremely difficult to tell what modules go with what setting, and for that matter how and if some settings are related- Is Inzae part of Aihrde? What about GAXMOOR? I'm not sure myself anymore. Some modules on the site have a setting listed (U1) as "non specific" . C7 doesn't even have a setting category on it's product page. I'm a picky SOB here, because I used to help manage and fulfill online sales for a card & game manufacturer (Tarot and card games). I was the sole person who had to field all the emails and calls about product questions, then go through each and every page/product on the website and submit corrections/changes/updates to the web team.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 23, 2021 13:36:41 GMT -6
First things first: Sorry it took so long to respond to this. I honestly just didn't see that there was a new post here. 100% my fault. OK here's some things I've been thinking about for C&C's future Some of it is clean-up/consolidation which I will go through first- Right now, it's feast or famine for C&C- Even though the CKG is not a requirement, two expensive hardcovers (and no adventure material included) are too much of a $ sink for someone trying the game out. The hardcovers aren't that expensive. The buy-in for C&C isn't any worse than for DCC, D&D, or pretty much any other modern fantasy game. And you only need TWO if you're going to run the game. The buy-in for players is just $30 for the PHB. I agree with a lot of what you say here but I can't agree with the buy-in cost. It's in line with almost every other game out there. I can generally agree with most of what you state here. We've had several quickstarts over the years and it may well be time for a new one. It's not a hardcover, but you'll find precisely this right here: www.trolllord.com/tlgstore/#!/Castles-&-Crusades-Classic-Box-Set/p/170725552 It's the core four classes and races, all the way to level 10, plus monsters, magic, and an introductory adventure. Plus character sheets, reference tables, dice, even a pencil in digest-sized books and an old-school-style box. It's not really that ridiculous when you consider what a lot of adventures and such cost in the market these days. But adventures are not likely to be a focus moving forward because you RARELY make any money from them. There are a few products we have talked about revisiting in a new presentation. I'm not sure what I can say about which, though. Folios also don't sell, unfortunately. If we were to put out a folio next to the Codex of Aihrde, even a moderately priced one, we would sell 3 codices to every folio. They are also exceptionally expensive to produce because the parts have to be printed separately, then hand assembled and shrinkwrapped. That drives up the cost, so a lot of people would complain it's too expensive for what it is. That being said, I can agree with the need for a more concise writeup of the setting. That's why in our next printing of the Player's Guide to Aihrde, we will be including a briefer writeup of the campaign setting that's much easier to absorb. You can see an example in our 5e Player's Guide to Aihrde. I am also told that when the current Codex of Airhde sells out there's going to be a major overhaul which may address some of your concerns. Currently we're seeing huge sales in our boxed set compilations. That will likely be the way the company goes moving forward for packaging bundles, at least until the winds change on that end. I'm 100% with you on that. I hate the store. I know Tim has plans for a complete redo of it, but I'm not sure where he is in the process. In the end, there are big plans to address a lot of what you've said here. Again, it's largely a matter of getting through our backlog.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 23, 2021 14:50:18 GMT -6
Finally, FWIW, I had Steve pop over here and read the thread. He agrees as well that you're spot on with most of your observations, and while we can't talk specifics at this time, a lot of what you want to see is coming in some form or another. We'll be doing some major overhauls in the near future.
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Post by geoffrey on Sept 23, 2021 15:52:04 GMT -6
I'm 100% with you on that. I hate the store. I know Tim has plans for a complete redo of it, but I'm not sure where he is in the process. In the end, there are big plans to address a lot of what you've said here. Again, it's largely a matter of getting through our backlog. Yep. The Troll Lords' online store is terrible. I'm glad that the Trolls have plans to redo it.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 23, 2021 16:03:35 GMT -6
First things first: Sorry it took so long to respond to this. I honestly just didn't see that there was a new post here. 100% my fault. OK here's some things I've been thinking about for C&C's future Some of it is clean-up/consolidation which I will go through first- Right now, it's feast or famine for C&C- Even though the CKG is not a requirement, two expensive hardcovers (and no adventure material included) are too much of a $ sink for someone trying the game out. The hardcovers aren't that expensive. The buy-in for C&C isn't any worse than for DCC, D&D, or pretty much any other modern fantasy game. And you only need TWO if you're going to run the game. The buy-in for players is just $30 for the PHB. I agree with a lot of what you say here but I can't agree with the buy-in cost. It's in line with almost every other game out there. I can generally agree with most of what you state here. We've had several quickstarts over the years and it may well be time for a new one. It's not a hardcover, but you'll find precisely this right here: www.trolllord.com/tlgstore/#!/Castles-&-Crusades-Classic-Box-Set/p/170725552 It's the core four classes and races, all the way to level 10, plus monsters, magic, and an introductory adventure. Plus character sheets, reference tables, dice, even a pencil in digest-sized books and an old-school-style box. It's not really that ridiculous when you consider what a lot of adventures and such cost in the market these days. But adventures are not likely to be a focus moving forward because you RARELY make any money from them. There are a few products we have talked about revisiting in a new presentation. I'm not sure what I can say about which, though. Folios also don't sell, unfortunately. If we were to put out a folio next to the Codex of Aihrde, even a moderately priced one, we would sell 3 codices to every folio. They are also exceptionally expensive to produce because the parts have to be printed separately, then hand assembled and shrinkwrapped. That drives up the cost, so a lot of people would complain it's too expensive for what it is. That being said, I can agree with the need for a more concise writeup of the setting. That's why in our next printing of the Player's Guide to Aihrde, we will be including a briefer writeup of the campaign setting that's much easier to absorb. You can see an example in our 5e Player's Guide to Aihrde. I am also told that when the current Codex of Airhde sells out there's going to be a major overhaul which may address some of your concerns. Currently we're seeing huge sales in our boxed set compilations. That will likely be the way the company goes moving forward for packaging bundles, at least until the winds change on that end. I'm 100% with you on that. I hate the store. I know Tim has plans for a complete redo of it, but I'm not sure where he is in the process. In the end, there are big plans to address a lot of what you've said here. Again, it's largely a matter of getting through our backlog. No worries Jason. I appreciate you getting back to me. I only have a brief minute to address one thing before I have to scoot out for a bit myself, so I'll be back later. As for the initial buy-in cost- I agree that C&C is in line with some other games. However C&C does't have nearly the "pull" in the industry as those other products you mention. There are way fewer people playing, and people who are aware of C&C compared to even DCC RPG, let alone Pathfinder or D&D. . If you want to play in the same ballpark pricing wise, you also have to compete in quality of editing, writing, and presentation- AND STILL find something else as a way to draw people into your game. Right now TLG is charging about the same money, but not delivering the same product quality in editing/writing or presentation. Why would a potential DM spend the same , for less? You have to find the draw, and beat them over the head with it. That is, if you wan't to grow the business and the game's reputation.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 24, 2021 4:57:11 GMT -6
I'm not likely to change your mind about the "quality of writing and presentation" issue because a great deal of that (writing and art quality) is purely subjective, but it's worth mentioning that we just had someone who is a copyeditor post a review of the CKG 3rd printing and he read it cover to cover and found only a single error.
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Post by derv on Sept 24, 2021 6:07:26 GMT -6
I'm not likely to change your mind about the "quality of writing and presentation" issue because a great deal of that (writing and art quality) is purely subjective, but it's worth mentioning that we just had someone who is a copyeditor post a review of the CKG 3rd printing and he read it cover to cover and found only a single error. Not sure if this still holds true, but the Troll Lords use to always steeply discount their core books during Christmas. Like 50% off. They may have done this at some other time of the year too. Not sure about that. The Christmas sale was the one to look for. That was the time to buy your stuff. Just mentioning it if someone was considering giving the system a try and wavering over the cost. The one thing I don't understand is the Troll Lords lack of presence at the cons. Maybe I'm just missing the posts and images on social media. They use to put on an east coast mini con years ago that they dropped completely. I think that was a mistake. But maybe it was too time consuming for too little return.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 24, 2021 6:13:53 GMT -6
I'm not likely to change your mind about the "quality of writing and presentation" issue because a great deal of that (writing and art quality) is purely subjective, but it's worth mentioning that we just had someone who is a copyeditor post a review of the CKG 3rd printing and he read it cover to cover and found only a single error. My issue with quality is not the material itself- the ideas and adventures and locations and such. The books just need a heavy handed editor to make them more readable. The style of writing is fine, when it's not repetitive. The books could be smaller page count, or be filled with more material for the same page count. Good to hear on the CKG. I know editing is not easy as I used to edit ad copy in a marketing department as a side task*. The PHB has struggled with printing after printing over the past...16? 17? years? It's about time they got a handle on that. *obviously, here on forums, I don't care
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Post by waysoftheearth on Sept 24, 2021 6:25:59 GMT -6
I just downloaded the "Players Handbook Digest Sample" and the "Wizards Tower and Basic Rules" for a quick read. FWIW, I agree with jeffb on the writing style for these examples. As a point of user feedback, I do find these examples somewhat cumbersome reading. While perhaps not *technically* in error (although I could quibble a few points), it is full of unnecessary commas and clauses that bog the reader down. It doesn't use the Oxford comma. It also has echoes and uses terms synonymously, which all adds to the reader load. A lot could be gained by simply cutting it back. I.e., less is more. Good to hear "overhauls" are in the works
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Post by jeffb on Sept 24, 2021 6:38:20 GMT -6
it is full of unnecessary commas and clauses that bog the reader down. Just like all my posts!
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Post by jeffb on Sept 24, 2021 7:05:48 GMT -6
So that stuff said- thegreyelfI'm glad Steve dropped by, and maybe my critiques sound harsh, but it's done with "love". I want the game to be better. I'm glad to hear the boxed compilations are doing well. If that's the means of presentation that is working and making $, great. Instead of delving deeper (ha!) and citing examples of pricing and products vs their TLG equivalents, I'll just reiterate that I'd like to see the same treatment (compilations/boxed sets) for the other adventure series I mentioned. While I LOVE the boxed game set, is it working to draw in new players and DMs who are unfamiliar with C&C? Or like S&W and other games- is it primarily a nostalgia thing for the existing fanbase? I can understand the cost associated with a folio. I guess I'm just not the typical consumer when it comes to new to me settings. I'd rather buy in to a small setting product to get a feel for it and try it out. I wouldn't buy a big hardcover until after I've decided I like the setting and want to learn more about it (and still may never do so, even if I *do* like it). I'm not really familiar with the 5E Aihrde products, but glad TLG is addressing that tough nut to crack that is Aihrde going forward. And finally- yes, TLG Store. Hot Mess. Appreciate all the feedback taken, and given, Jason! (and Steve!)
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 24, 2021 13:24:39 GMT -6
So that stuff said- thegreyelfI'm glad Steve dropped by, and maybe my critiques sound harsh, but it's done with "love". I want the game to be better. I'm glad to hear the boxed compilations are doing well. If that's the means of presentation that is working and making $, great. Instead of delving deeper (ha!) and citing examples of pricing and products vs their TLG equivalents, I'll just reiterate that I'd like to see the same treatment (compilations/boxed sets) for the other adventure series I mentioned. While I LOVE the boxed game set, is it working to draw in new players and DMs who are unfamiliar with C&C? Or like S&W and other games- is it primarily a nostalgia thing for the existing fanbase? I can understand the cost associated with a folio. I guess I'm just not the typical consumer when it comes to new to me settings. I'd rather buy in to a small setting product to get a feel for it and try it out. I wouldn't buy a big hardcover until after I've decided I like the setting and want to learn more about it (and still may never do so, even if I *do* like it). I'm not really familiar with the 5E Aihrde products, but glad TLG is addressing that tough nut to crack that is Aihrde going forward. And finally- yes, TLG Store. Hot Mess. Appreciate all the feedback taken, and given, Jason! (and Steve!) Not at all, man. We took your comments in the spirit in which they were inteded. Like I said, this is the type of feedback we need, and Steve said you were spot on with most of your points. It's been a fantastic conversation. I do think you'll be pleased at some of the plans moving forward, as we are addressing many of them, though perhaps not in the specific methods you suggested. The boxed set is selling well and bringing in some new gamers, BUT your post made Steve and I talk about the idea of putting that set together in a simple "C&C Basic" book that we could sell at a lower price point. We're still kicking around the best approach, but that may be on the horizon.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 24, 2021 13:30:59 GMT -6
The one thing I don't understand is the Troll Lords lack of presence at the cons. Maybe I'm just missing the posts and images on social media. They use to put on an east coast mini con years ago that they dropped completely. I think that was a mistake. But maybe it was too time consuming for too little return. Conventions, sadly, are dying a slow death. There's a reason a LOT of publishers are pulling out. Troll Lord loses a TON of money on every convention we attend. We never make it back, because Kickstarter now has replaced conventions for release frenzy--most attendees now stop by the booth to say, "I just wanted to look at this. I ordered it on Kickstarter and am waiting for it to arrive." We also never actually see a bump in sales after the con, which means conventions aren't the tool to bring in new players that they once were. Meanwhile, though the costs of the con itself are a tax writeoff, the loss of needing to shut down production entirely for a whole week isn't. That's a loss you have to eat as a company. Note I'm saying this with some sadness. I personally LOVE conventions and want them to roar back, but the Internet, as it's done with so many brick and mortar stores, is hurting them both as a part of the business AND as a means to get seen by new players. When we do attend, it's simply because we enjoy the experience and enjoy the opportunity to directly interact with fans. But it costs thousands of dollars to attend between the booth rental, travel costs, food, and lodging for everyone. That's true even of smaller cons. That being said, we do Gary Con every year, and Steve has been indicating we may give Gen Con another go next year. I've been pushing to go back to Origins again. We'll see what happens.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 24, 2021 16:27:24 GMT -6
Finally, FWIW, I had Steve pop over here and read the thread. He agrees as well that you're spot on with most of your observations, and while we can't talk specifics at this time, a lot of what you want to see is coming in some form or another. We'll be doing some major overhauls in the near future. If Steve wants to join the boards, we can fast-track his approval. I'm one of the top Moderators on the TLG boards and I used to hang out with him and the Troll Lord guys at GenCon but I haven't been there for several years.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 26, 2021 11:18:30 GMT -6
Finally, FWIW, I had Steve pop over here and read the thread. He agrees as well that you're spot on with most of your observations, and while we can't talk specifics at this time, a lot of what you want to see is coming in some form or another. We'll be doing some major overhauls in the near future. If Steve wants to join the boards, we can fast-track his approval. I'm one of the top Moderators on the TLG boards and I used to hang out with him and the Troll Lord guys at GenCon but I haven't been there for several years. I let him know but Steve is so crazy busy he doesn't really actively participate in any form of social media these days save the bi-weekly Twitch streams and Tik Tok videos. Then again, he has surprised me more than once .
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Post by derv on Sept 26, 2021 14:40:34 GMT -6
Conventions, sadly, are dying a slow death.... Note I'm saying this with some sadness. I personally LOVE conventions and want them to roar back, but the Internet, as it's done with so many brick and mortar stores, is hurting them both as a part of the business AND as a means to get seen by new players. Seems so strange to me. I mean, I understand that internet sales can easily outstrip what you would make at a con with a fraction of the effort. And maybe kickstarter is the new normal for early release. I just can't see the internet being the primary place where a person is introduced to a new system though. That's one of the reasons why I go to cons, to try out new stuff before I invest. Granted I'm mostly talking about wargames here. That's more to do with my interests and lack of need for anything new in rpg's. Otherwise, I would approach them similarly. If what you say is true, I have to wonder if the hobby/sales are mostly made up of collectors. On the other hand, I might just be out of touch with the direction the hobby is currently taking
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