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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 12, 2021 12:38:07 GMT -6
ELG now has a PDF store on itch.io, which offers a lot of advantages to us over DriveThruRPG. Check it out! elf-lair-games.itch.io/ |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 12, 2021 20:40:26 GMT -6
So just curious ... what are the advantages of this place over DriveThru? Are they advantages for the consumer or for the company?
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 12, 2021 21:11:30 GMT -6
I've been curious about itch.io it seems very advantageous for the indie publisher in a lot of ways. One of which is being able to effectively host the store on your own website so the customer isn't leaving your site. So it is a bit more organic.
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 13, 2021 4:50:00 GMT -6
So just curious ... what are the advantages of this place over DriveThru? Are they advantages for the consumer or for the company? The biggest reason is they take 10% of my sales instead of 60% of my sales. They also don't actively bury small publishers so nobody can find them like DTRPG does. In fact, they offer advice on how to get seen. DTRPG is an (attempted) monopoly on POD/PDF RPG offerings that exists ONLY to support the biggest names and industry darlings while throwing crumbs to everyone else. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 13, 2021 5:46:25 GMT -6
I've been curious about itch.io it seems very advantageous for the indie publisher in a lot of ways. One of which is being able to effectively host the store on your own website so the customer isn't leaving your site. So it is a bit more organic. Yes, the ability to set up your own storefront (and it's super easy and intuitive) is a big benefit. So are the resources they give you to get seen, like announcement threads in their community and the fact that they continually rotate vendors. The fact that you can set how much they get from your sales (I give them 10%) is another MASSIVE benefit over storefronts like DTRPG, which takes 60% of every sale I make, and if I want to get that down to 25% they force me to sign an exclusivity agreement with them. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Jul 13, 2021 6:28:17 GMT -6
[The biggest reason is they take 10% of my sales instead of 60% of my sales.  That's robbery! I had no idea that those other places take such a big cut. That's just nuts! |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 13, 2021 6:28:58 GMT -6
I've been curious about itch.io it seems very advantageous for the indie publisher in a lot of ways. One of which is being able to effectively host the store on your own website so the customer isn't leaving your site. So it is a bit more organic. Yes, the ability to set up your own storefront (and it's super easy and intuitive) is a big benefit. So are the resources they give you to get seen, like announcement threads in their community and the fact that they continually rotate vendors. The fact that you can set how much they get from your sales (I give them 10%) is another MASSIVE benefit over storefronts like DTRPG, which takes 60% of every sale I make, and if I want to get that down to 25% they force me to sign an exclusivity agreement with them. Their fee is pretty hefty. I thought it was 20%? Is it really 60% if not exclusive? I don't recall it being that draconian. The exclusivity is not hard to get around. Create a DriveThru exclusive version that has some extra monsters or a unique class or something. But, being able to host the store on your own site is huge. Do they have anything resembling the DriveThru app that lets you keep your collection up to date and organized? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 10:00:31 GMT -6
[The biggest reason is they take 10% of my sales instead of 60% of my sales. That's robbery! I had no idea that those other places take such a big cut. That's just nuts! Yeah, that is criminal. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 10:03:17 GMT -6
I've been curious about itch.io it seems very advantageous for the indie publisher in a lot of ways. One of which is being able to effectively host the store on your own website so the customer isn't leaving your site. So it is a bit more organic. Yes, the ability to set up your own storefront (and it's super easy and intuitive) is a big benefit. So are the resources they give you to get seen, like announcement threads in their community and the fact that they continually rotate vendors. The fact that you can set how much they get from your sales (I give them 10%) is another MASSIVE benefit over storefronts like DTRPG, which takes 60% of every sale I make, and if I want to get that down to 25% they force me to sign an exclusivity agreement with them. If you are a customer going to their site to search for old school materials, how well does the search function work? Edit: I went to itch.io to see if I could find you just using their search function and without using your company name. No luck, what search terms should allow me to find you if I don't yet know who you are? That is how to new customers find you at itch.io? As near as I can tell with a quick run through, they have no reliable way to quickly get to old school TTRPG materials. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 13, 2021 14:35:56 GMT -6
Yes, the ability to set up your own storefront (and it's super easy and intuitive) is a big benefit. So are the resources they give you to get seen, like announcement threads in their community and the fact that they continually rotate vendors. The fact that you can set how much they get from your sales (I give them 10%) is another MASSIVE benefit over storefronts like DTRPG, which takes 60% of every sale I make, and if I want to get that down to 25% they force me to sign an exclusivity agreement with them. Their fee is pretty hefty. I thought it was 20%? Is it really 60% if not exclusive? I don't recall it being that draconian. The exclusivity is not hard to get around. Create a DriveThru exclusive version that has some extra monsters or a unique class or something. But, being able to host the store on your own site is huge. Do they have anything resembling the DriveThru app that lets you keep your collection up to date and organized? It's 60% if not exclusive. They're basically treating themselves as your distributor (even though they don't do the things other distributors do, like marketing your product and getting you into brick and mortar game stores). And no, it's not that easy to get around. If you sign an exclusivity agreement with DTRPG, YOU are agreeing not to sell anywhere else. Not agreeing not to sell the same property elsewhere. YOU, AS A COMPANY, are exclusive to DTRPG. I have other publisher friends who deeply regret signing on for exclusivity because of the wording of it. I'm sure there's a lot of people who ignore it or "interpret" it differently, but that CAN be a recipe for disaster if DTRPG decides to make it one. Yes, they do have a section where you can go in, maintain, and update your products, easily create new ones, even rearrange your store and set up sales. It's even more userfriendly and easier than DTRPG's. Yes, the ability to set up your own storefront (and it's super easy and intuitive) is a big benefit. So are the resources they give you to get seen, like announcement threads in their community and the fact that they continually rotate vendors. The fact that you can set how much they get from your sales (I give them 10%) is another MASSIVE benefit over storefronts like DTRPG, which takes 60% of every sale I make, and if I want to get that down to 25% they force me to sign an exclusivity agreement with them. If you are a customer going to their site to search for old school materials, how well does the search function work? Edit: I went to itch.io to see if I could find you just using their search function and without using your company name. No luck, what search terms should allow me to find you if I don't yet know who you are? That is how to new customers find you at itch.io? As near as I can tell with a quick run through, they have no reliable way to quickly get to old school TTRPG materials. I am still VERY new to itch, and yes, they do focus strongly on video games at the moment (though I suspect that'll change as more TTRPG publishers migrate there). Short version: I'm still figuring it out, too, and the best way is always to search the company name. They have tags, and I've used the same ones for my games (Dark Fantasy, Horror, Psychological Horror, role-playing-game, Survival Horror, urban-fantasy). The real benefit is that when you do get to the TTRPG front end, they continuously cycle their publishers, so there's at least a CHANCE ELG will show up on the front page there at some point: there's ZERO chance of that on DTRPG, because frankly they don't want to support new and small publishers apart from giving them a place to sell. Here we go. On the front page, on the left, under "Browse," select "Physical games." After that, entering one of the tags above should help you find my stuff without searching the company name ("urban-fantasy" worked well). |
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 13, 2021 15:19:16 GMT -6
Yes, they do have a section where you can go in, maintain, and update your products, easily create new ones, even rearrange your store and set up sales. It's even more userfriendly and easier than DTRPG's. Ok, I get that it is easier for the publisher. I was talking about the DriveThru app for the customers so they can keep their files up to date. I like everything I'm hearing from you how it benefits a publisher, but there needs to be a significant benefit for the customer as well. I'm still having a hard time believing the 60%. It was a long time ago I signed up. Ok, I looked it up. For exclusive they take 30%. For non-exclusive they take 35%. I think the way it is worded: "you get 65%" is a little confusing. The FAQ is here: onebookshelfpublisherservice.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/227866527-What-s-the-difference-between-non-exclusive-and-exclusive-I also had this problem with setting up royalties for co-authors. You have to take into account how much DriveThru is taking, and then realize the royalty percentage you are setting is after that. So to split profits 50/50 the co-author gets 35%. And once you screw it up they do not let you change it. So a couple books I did I'm only getting 20%, which is fine the author's did great work and deserve the extra royalty. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 13, 2021 16:07:59 GMT -6
Ok, I get that it is easier for the publisher. I was talking about the DriveThru app for the customers so they can keep their files up to date. I like everything I'm hearing from you how it benefits a publisher, but there needs to be a significant benefit for the customer as well. Ah, I get you. I don't know if there's a way to keep customers up to date. I'm still very new there and haven't investigated that yet. I'd assume there has to be a way to contact your customers on there; that's all you'd need, a way to let them know to re-download. Then something has changed and I'm grandfathered into an earlier scheme becuase I look at my sales like a hawk every month, and they're TAKING 60% of every sale I make, not giving me 65%. I signed up way back in 2008, though, so... In any case, it seems I need to contact someone if that's the case. Even still, the difference between 10% at itch and even 35% at DTRPG is significant. I also had this problem with setting up royalties for co-authors. You have to take into account how much DriveThru is taking, and then realize the royalty percentage you are setting is after that. So to split profits 50/50 the co-author gets 35%. And once you screw it up they do not let you change it. So a couple books I did I'm only getting 20%, which is fine the author's did great work and deserve the extra royalty. Yes, that is a nightmare to deal with at times. That's also one thing you don't get with itch--the ability to easily split royalties (at least not that I've seen so far; it might be there and I just haven't found it yet). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2021 22:53:43 GMT -6
If you are a customer going to their site to search for old school materials, how well does the search function work? Edit: I went to itch.io to see if I could find you just using their search function and without using your company name. No luck, what search terms should allow me to find you if I don't yet know who you are? That is how to new customers find you at itch.io? As near as I can tell with a quick run through, they have no reliable way to quickly get to old school TTRPG materials. I am still VERY new to itch, and yes, they do focus strongly on video games at the moment (though I suspect that'll change as more TTRPG publishers migrate there). Short version: I'm still figuring it out, too, and the best way is always to search the company name. They have tags, and I've used the same ones for my games (Dark Fantasy, Horror, Psychological Horror, role-playing-game, Survival Horror, urban-fantasy). The real benefit is that when you do get to the TTRPG front end, they continuously cycle their publishers, so there's at least a CHANCE ELG will show up on the front page there at some point: there's ZERO chance of that on DTRPG, because frankly they don't want to support new and small publishers apart from giving them a place to sell. Here we go. On the front page, on the left, under "Browse," select "Physical games." After that, entering one of the tags above should help you find my stuff without searching the company name ("urban-fantasy" worked well). Yeah, I was thinking of searches where you don't know the company name and are looking for new things you have not heard of. I did not think of "urban-fantasy." I also tried to search by OSR and it pulls up a lot of stuff I would be really surprised if it were to be compatible with anything I play.  I did a lot of searches and currently there is no search that pulls up a list of old school compatible game materials. Of course there is a lot of dross at DTRPG too! I sent a question to their help email to find out if there is anyway to select multiple tags for a search. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 14, 2021 4:23:52 GMT -6
On itch? You can. Each tag you select adds to the list until you clear them.
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 8, 2021 13:56:01 GMT -6
Well, 2 months later and I haven't seen a SINGLE sale on itch, which says to me it is certainly not a legitimate alternative to DTRPG, where I still get between $60 and $100 per month in royalties.
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Post by jeffb on Sept 9, 2021 10:03:10 GMT -6
Well, for my part, the Night Shift line is not of personal interest, so I was not able to contribute (though I wish you much luck with it!)
I'm interested in your S&S game, as well as your TLG output.
Is your S&S work even available on the itch page? I cannot seem to find it at the link above.
And yes, I'm gathering that DriveThru is such a behemoth , that nothing can compete. I know I had never heard of itch prior.
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 9, 2021 14:59:17 GMT -6
Well, 2 months later and I haven't seen a SINGLE sale on itch, which says to me it is certainly not a legitimate alternative to DTRPG, where I still get between $60 and $100 per month in royalties. You might want to consider Gumroad. I used to sell a bunch of self published books on there before I switched over to DriveThru. They have good discoverability once someone buys a related product somewhere else. |
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 10, 2021 3:50:32 GMT -6
Well, 2 months later and I haven't seen a SINGLE sale on itch, which says to me it is certainly not a legitimate alternative to DTRPG, where I still get between $60 and $100 per month in royalties. You might want to consider Gumroad. I used to sell a bunch of self published books on there before I switched over to DriveThru. They have good discoverability once someone buys a related product somewhere else. I am intrigued by your ideas, Sir, and would like to subscribe to your pamphlet and/or newsletter. Tell me more! |
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Post by thegreyelf on Sept 10, 2021 3:53:21 GMT -6
Well, for my part, the Night Shift line is not of personal interest, so I was not able to contribute (though I wish you much luck with it!) I'm interested in your S&S game, as well as your TLG output. Is your S&S work even available on the itch page? I cannot seem to find it at the link above. And yes, I'm gathering that DriveThru is such a behemoth , that nothing can compete. I know I had never heard of itch prior. I haven't put the S&S stuff up on itch yet. S&S is kind of in limbo at this point while I'm developing other things. Once Night Shift is completely established (which I am hoping will be by the end of the year with a few more adventures, the sourcebook, and the GM screens), I will be working on a swords and sorcery RPG using the O.G.R.E.S. system that powers Night Shift. I have been slowly working on the second edition of Spellcraft & Swordplay, but it's down the road apiece. I'm kind of committed to the O.G.R.E.S. system as opposed to O.R.C.S. at this point, as I think it has more broad appeal. The problem with DTRPG is that it is (deliberately, I suspect) built to cater to big names and completely bury small publishers. The upcoming new design won't even let you discover new publishers by browsing. Only the top performers are highlighted or in the drop-down list of publishers. If you don't know who Elf Lair Games are, you'll never find us there. |
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Post by tdenmark on Sept 10, 2021 18:00:49 GMT -6
I am intrigued by your ideas, Sir, and would like to subscribe to your pamphlet and/or newsletter. Tell me more! You can set up a page on Gumroad at no cost. You can use Gumroad to create a store on your own site. They have an advanced paid service but I haven't used it so I don't know the benefits. It is used by a lot of artists to sell artbooks, tutorials, and the like, you can sell digital content like PDF's, as well as physical products. They don't take as big a cut as DriveThru does. It is more in line with a typical payment service. |
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That's robbery! I had no idea that those other places take such a big cut. That's just nuts!
I did a lot of searches and currently there is no search that pulls up a list of old school compatible game materials. Of course there is a lot of dross at DTRPG too! I sent a question to their help email to find out if there is anyway to select multiple tags for a search.