jonsalway
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Post by jonsalway on Jun 27, 2021 6:00:10 GMT -6
I've written a short list of those clones which emulate OD&D pretty closely. I've not included those which, although they do well at capturing the feel of OD&D, do not share many mechanical similarities.
[1] **S&W White Box** edition, Marv Breig, Mythmere Games 2009
[2] **Torch and Sword**, Paul Gorman, 2011
[3] **Delving Deeper**, Simon Bull, Immersive Ink, 2012
[4] **Full Metal Plate Mail**, Leonaru, 2014
[5] **Iron Falcon**, Chris Gonnerman, 2015
[6] **Whitebox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game**, Charlie Mason, Seattle Hill Games, 2016
Any others you feel I've missed?
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Post by Finarvyn on Jun 27, 2021 6:25:45 GMT -6
Technically, [6] is a revised edition of [1]. Charlie took my WB, did some tweaks and such, and created a better product.  |
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Post by jeffb on Jun 27, 2021 6:37:54 GMT -6
Technically, [6] is a revised edition of [1]. Charlie took my WB, did some tweaks and such, and created a better product. But your original had the best cover art by far! |
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Post by jeffb on Jun 27, 2021 6:46:42 GMT -6
@ jonsalway I think if you are going to include WB- whether Marv's original or Charlie's edit, then probably original Swords & Wizardry (now called "core") should be on the list. It's OD&D+GH-ish and it was THE first.
That said, I'm not sure I'd say original S&W or WB get into the "pretty closely" category (NOT that it's a bad thing). WB absolutely captures the essence of the LBBs (and is my fave "retroclone"), but DD and IF hew much closer to the originals.
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jonsalway
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Post by jonsalway on Jun 27, 2021 10:46:22 GMT -6
OK. I haven't looked that closely at S&W Core but if I put Iron Falcon in my list which is 3llb+greyhawk then I guess S&W Core ought to be there too. I shall go and read it forthwith.
(You don't mind if I call you Forthwith do you?)
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Post by acodispo on Jun 27, 2021 11:04:25 GMT -6
Your list includes all those that I know that are attempting to emulate OD&D. Beyond that I have two suggestions that may be outside your intended scope, as they are intentionally built on the same core but diverge from it.
Backswords & Bucklers, Christopher Cale, 2010, describes itself as a fork of [1].
And Seven Voyages of Zylarthen (Oakes Spalding, Campion & Clitherow 2014) describes itself as "a re-imagining of the original edition of the world’s most popular paper and pencil fantasy adventure game, first published by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson in 1974." I'm not too familiar with the rules but at a glance it does appear to be built on the core of the 3 booklets, with an integrated setting and some house rules added.
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Post by jeffb on Jun 27, 2021 12:41:33 GMT -6
OK. I haven't looked that closely at S&W Core but if I put Iron Falcon in my list which is 3llb+greyhawk then I guess S&W Core ought to be there too. I shall go and read it forthwith. (You don't mind if I call you Forthwith do you?) If that's anything like Nitwith, that's OK. My Wife calls me that all the time for some reason. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jun 27, 2021 18:15:47 GMT -6
Ohh. We're spoiled for choice Perhaps it would be neat to differentiate the 3LBB vs the 3LBB+GH titles? (Although not a recent OGL publication, Mark Bufkin's c. late 1973 Beyond this Point There be Dragons a.k.a. the Dalluhn ms. may have been the earliest OD&D rewrite?) |
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Post by thomden on Jun 27, 2021 18:28:06 GMT -6
How would you rank these in order of faithfulness to the original LBB?
SVE (Single Volume Edition) is missing, even though it is by far the best and most accurate retroclone. Seriously, I wish Wizards would pay the authors and editors and publish it in a special series, along with an updated and edited Rules Cyclopedia, a single volume "best of" 1st edition, and so on.
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jonsalway
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Post by jonsalway on Jun 28, 2021 1:32:15 GMT -6
Your list includes all those that I know that are attempting to emulate OD&D. Beyond that I have two suggestions that may be outside your intended scope, as they are intentionally built on the same core but diverge from it.
Backswords & Bucklers, Christopher Cale, 2010, describes itself as a fork of [1].
And Seven Voyages of Zylarthen (Oakes Spalding, Campion & Clitherow 2014) describes itself as "a re-imagining of the original edition of the world’s most popular paper and pencil fantasy adventure game, first published by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson in 1974." I'm not too familiar with the rules but at a glance it does appear to be built on the core of the 3 booklets, with an integrated setting and some house rules added.
I'm not familiar with Backswords & Bucklers but I will check it out, thanks. Zylarthen is indeed based very much on the 3llbs but it is very much a rule set of a personal campaign and has so much extra specific info in it that I can't really put it in this version of a clone list. |
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jonsalway
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Post by jonsalway on Jun 28, 2021 1:34:35 GMT -6
How would you rank these in order of faithfulness to the original LBB? SVE is missing, but that is understandable. That's a hard one but I think Delving Deeper is probably top of the list. Simon has put a lot of effort into untangling OD&D and yet keeping the rules pure. |
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jonsalway
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Post by jonsalway on Jun 28, 2021 1:35:52 GMT -6
Ohh. We're spoiled for choice Perhaps it would be neat to differentiate the 3LBB vs the 3LBB+GH titles? (Although not a recent OGL publication, Mark Bufkin's c. late 1973 Beyond this Point There be Dragons a.k.a. the Dalluhn ms. may have been the earliest OD&D rewrite?) Ha! Can Dalluhn be called a clone if it was produced before the original was published! |
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jonsalway
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Post by jonsalway on Jun 28, 2021 6:01:51 GMT -6
I've had a look at Backswords & Bucklers and decided against adding to my list. It looks a very interesting game, especially if you are into historical rpgs. However, because it is so specific in its setting (Elizabethan England) it can't really be a straight emulation.
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Post by acodispo on Jun 29, 2021 7:24:30 GMT -6
Microlite74 is (judging from the name) a candidate -- I haven't read the rules, but from my understanding of the Microlite approach I'm guessing it might be a little less accurate than others already listed. Regarding fidelity, Delving Deeper v5 (though unfinished) is very, very close. Finally, the single-volume reformatting can't possibly be categorized as a clone. If you take a sheep, chop it up, and magically sew it back together again in a different arrangement (say, switch the forelegs with the backlegs or put the ears on the chin), you haven't cloned that sheep, you've rearranged it (possibly in a useful way, of course). |
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Post by jeffb on Jun 29, 2021 8:56:11 GMT -6
The Micro Lite games definitely hew closer to 3.0 D20 games and are in no way clones (as that 3.0 SRD is their core- MicoLite20 being the first version). Their mechanics differ greatly (Spell cost HP to cast, three stats, uses a DC system for saves/ability checks, etc).
Not that it makes them bad games- but the ML series was originally designed to make a simpler, faster playing game that was backwards compatible with 3.X adventures/supplements. They simply remove/change the details for the 74,81, et al versions.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 9:59:04 GMT -6
Regarding fidelity, Delving Deeper v5 (though unfinished) is very, very close. Finally, the single-volume reformatting can't possibly be categorized as a clone. If you take a sheep, chop it up, and magically sew it back together again in a different arrangement (say, switch the forelegs with the backlegs or put the ears on the chin), you haven't cloned that sheep, you've rearranged it (possibly in a useful way, of course). Is there a timeline for when this v5 will be completed? |
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Post by acodispo on Jun 29, 2021 13:58:09 GMT -6
Regarding fidelity, Delving Deeper v5 (though unfinished) is very, very close. Is there a timeline for when this v5 will be completed? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 20:45:50 GMT -6
Is there a timeline for when this v5 will be completed? Thanks! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 10:46:59 GMT -6
Ohh. We're spoiled for choice Perhaps it would be neat to differentiate the 3LBB vs the 3LBB+GH titles? (Although not a recent OGL publication, Mark Bufkin's c. late 1973 Beyond this Point There be Dragons a.k.a. the Dalluhn ms. may have been the earliest OD&D rewrite?) Ha! Can Dalluhn be called a clone if it was produced before the original was published! I believe this is a situation psychology would label a "second order simulacrum". A copy of an original that does not yet exist. |
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jonsalway
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Post by jonsalway on Jun 30, 2021 14:53:55 GMT -6
Time machines
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 15:28:37 GMT -6
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 14, 2021 5:10:59 GMT -6
Labyrinth Lord, with the Original Edition Characters supplement added, to my mind is probably the closest of the retroclones.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2021 15:07:44 GMT -6
Isn't Labyrinth Lord based on the Mentzer product line, though?
Although, I suppose through a certain application of logic, you might say BECMI is simply a more streamlined and user-friendly OD&D. At least, that's the terminology that was being used up until around ten years ago. I was peeping through some of the threads on Dragonsfoot from the early 2000's and it seems that our modern sub-division terminology like "B/X, BECMI, Holmes, OD&D, etc." were much more smudged together back then.
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Post by jeffb on Jul 14, 2021 15:55:46 GMT -6
LL is based on MCM, not BECMI...
though yes, presentation aside, they are pretty much the same game barring some # changes
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Post by atlantean on Jul 14, 2021 18:26:14 GMT -6
IMO: Closest to Original three booklets: Full Metal Platemail. Closest to Original three booklets plus Greyhawk: Iron Falcon. Labyrinth Lord is pretty close to B/X but I've never seen OSR Essentials to mmake a comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2021 21:46:36 GMT -6
LL is based on MCM, not BECMI... though yes, presentation aside, they are pretty much the same game barring some # changes What is MCM? That is a new acronym to me. |
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Post by thomden on Jul 14, 2021 23:12:14 GMT -6
LL is based on MCM, not BECMI... though yes, presentation aside, they are pretty much the same game barring some # changes MCM? |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jul 15, 2021 1:22:48 GMT -6
B/X. Basic by Moldvay and eXpert by Cook/Marsh?
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Post by thomden on Jul 15, 2021 1:58:53 GMT -6
B/X. Basic by Moldvay and eXpert by Cook/Marsh? Even as a D&D nerd since 1981 the acronyms get so thick sometimes I get lost. Moldvay Cook Marsh does fit well, but I've never seen B/X referred to that way. |
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Post by jeffb on Jul 15, 2021 7:15:04 GMT -6
I almost always use MCM to differentiate from BECMI As BX could mean/be used for either (and often was in the early internet days of discussion around places like DF)
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