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Post by captainjapan on May 10, 2021 14:18:15 GMT -6
More Perrin Convention ramblings: The December 1976 Perrin Conventions' page numbering begins at Page 5. However, there is approximately a page of material that I cannot account for, based on the character count of the included Sequence of Play (which was the same as the published Sequence of Play in All the World's Monsters). This makes sense considering how much the visible portions of the December '76 rules seem to have expanded. Lee Gold's summary Sequence of Play (A&E #17) is only concerned with Dexterity and the turn order. If her personal copy is five pages, as is mentioned at RPGGeek, sans magic rules; and if the revised December '76 set is the same copy that prompted her to write that summary in A&E; then The first four pages of Dec. '76 contained only the play sequence. Unless my calculations are wrong, four pages is one page too many to devote to the ten phase Sequence of Play in the published rules. Besides, Lee is still only interested in the 5-phase turn of the original Dundracon handout which fits on but a single sheet! On an unrelated note, can someone enlighten me as to how exactly the OD&D rules "as written" incorporated Dexterity into the determinations of either initiative or of armor class? I'm aware of the Monk, but that's about it.
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Post by Zenopus on May 10, 2021 14:46:32 GMT -6
On an unrelated note, can someone enlighten me as to how exactly the OD&D rules "as written" incorporated Dexterity into the determinations of either initiative or of armor class? I'm aware of the Monk, but that's about it. For initiative, look at the description of Dexterity in Vol 1. "Using dexterity to determine the order of actions has its ultimate origins OD&D Vol 1: "Dexterity ... will indicate the character's missile ability and speed with actions such as firing first, getting off a spell, etc" (pg 11, Vol 1). The original rulebooks don't explain initiative any further (there is a complicated optional system presented in Eldritch Wizardry), so you can understand why Holmes went with the only statement in the original rules that spoke to it." "Thus, Holmes included an updated version of LBB sentence in the section on Dexterity: "Characters with high dexterity can get off the first arrow, throw the first spell or draw a weapon and strike the first blow" (pg 5 of the published rulebook). Note the addition of melee attacks to the list of actions. Other games using dexterity in combat that predate Holmes Basic include Warlock, a 1975 non-TSR OD&D Supplement, and the Metamorphosis Alpha RPG by TSR (1976)." From: zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2014/01/part-17-highest-dexterity-strikes-first.htmlI can add the Perrin Conventions to that list now that it's more clear the 1976 version(s) used Dexterity as well. I left it out here before because I'd only seen the 1977 version that post-dates Holmes Basic.
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Post by captainjapan on May 10, 2021 18:58:05 GMT -6
Zenopus said: It's certainly not much to go on. Is the Dex. bonus for fighters, from Greyhawk Supp.(3/1975), the only other mention before Eldritch? The reason I ask is because, if I were a referee trying to invent a combat sequence, pre-Greyhawk, I might also stick with my own Dexterity initiative after seeing the limited Fighter bonus. Although, the Dex. bonus of Greyhawk (as exemplified in Gygax' D&D FAQ - S&R summer '75) now covers melee weapons. That's getting closer to Perrin. Eldritch Wizardry's dex. order initiative scheme seems like a reaction to some outside-TSR innovations that were gaining traction. This is just a guess. At any rate, Eldritch is out of the running for originator of Dexterity based initiative based on the publication date - April 1976 - after Dundracon I. It is possible that another feature of the Lee Gold Perrin Conventions summary, the inclusion of Magic Missile to the missile fire phase of the order, is predicated on the Magic Missile being the only low level missile type spell. Swords & Spells pg.11 - SPELL CASTING allows these to take immediate effect (no preperation). Fireballs and Lightning Bolts require a half turn to prepare, placing them into combat phase 5, the final phase of the original sequence.
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Post by captainjapan on May 11, 2021 19:28:14 GMT -6
Wayne Shaw of the "Wayne Shaw Option: once the first strike dexterity is determined, all haste bonuses, etc., are figured, roll 2D6 for each character and add the result to the dexterity. This will give a little variety to just who gets to strike first." (The only contribution specifically credited in the body of the rules) went on to indirectly contribute the point buy rules to the superhero game, Champions. His fixes were meant for Superhero 44, the first super powered rpg. George MacDonald, another amateur rules hacker, wrote a list of super powers. The two met at an L.A. area convention when MacDonald was working on his new game, Champions. Here is the link to a podcast interview with the inveterate tinkerer, Wayne Shaw, on Geekerati Radio 6/10/2014.
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Post by captainjapan on May 13, 2021 22:25:50 GMT -6
Haste: A spell which speeds the movement of up to 20 figures by 50% for three turns. - Chainmail 3rd Edition
Since there is no description of Haste in the 3lbb's, maybe Steve Perrin based his interpretation of the spell on this description. Probably not. I noticed in "the other" Dundracon handout, Bill Keyes ref. tables, Haste modifies Dexterity thusly:
Hastened | Dex. Equivalent | to Hit | Damage | Missile | Defense | 18-25 | 18(01-50) | +1 | +1 | +2 | +4 | 26-30 | 18(51-75) | +2 | +2 | +3 | +4 | 31-33 | 18(76-90) | +2 | +2 | +3 | +4 | 34-35 | 18(91-99) | +2 | +2 | +4 | +5 | 36 | 18(00) | +3 | +3 | +5 | +6 |
This isn't exactly the way the Dundracon table presents it. The original lists values for the full range of Dexterity scores up to 18 as well as listing Dex. modifiers to all Thief skills (Haste will improve these, too).
There are also a few notes on the table that echo what's in the Perrin Conventions:
-Can only use +1/Lvl. of Dexterity bonus to Armor Class -Plate lowers Dexterity by 2. Chainmail by 1. Get 1 back for each Level above 1.
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yesmar
Level 4 Theurgist
Fool, my spell book is written in Erlang!
Posts: 197
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Post by yesmar on May 13, 2021 22:50:56 GMT -6
Since there is no description of Haste in the 3lbb's, … What now? Haste is detailed on p. 26 of Volume 1. Edit: Oh, I get it — by “no description” you mean that the actual effect of the Haste Spell is not specifically detailed other than the fact that it is the inverse of the Slow Spell.
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Post by captainjapan on May 14, 2021 0:15:38 GMT -6
Yeah, sorry. I should have been more specific. There was a thread about this, a while back. The conservative view is that Haste only grants double movement rates; that it's not a combat spell at all. Obviously, the Bay area players had different ideas about Haste. Haste was exploited enough times to warrant it's inclusion in this and also in the published version of the Perrin Conventions: There's more to this, that was not published. In the December '76 version that Zenopus linked, Haste also doubles a fighter's number of attacks per round.* In another version, the one by Nicolai Shapero for his Stormgate dungeon, all character classes are allowed two attacks. Shapero, like Perrin (see quote, above), also thinks that Haste doubling Dexterity (as calculated in the Keyes handout) will count toward first round initiative. Perrin makes an important exception when it comes to the "dexterity roll", a check that is made for just about everything combat related in their games. Haste will not double Dexterity for making the d% "dexterity roll". The dexterity roll will be based on the original, unmodified Dexterity of the character. *Dan Pierson corroborates two blows for hastened fighters in A&E #8
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