Normal Types versus Fantastic Types

[ODDYSSEUS]

Greetings, all! It has been entirely too long! I hope you've all been faring well. So I have some questions regarding Normal and Fantastic types. If one were to assume use of Fighting Capability AND the Alternate Combat System in OD&D, would my assertions below be correct? I'm not too sure. This explains the questions at the end. If my assertions are wrong I would not be surprised. I'm no expert. "Official" sources would be great if you have them. Well, what are you all waiting for?! JK. Thanks, gang.

If a normal type fights a normal type, their FC indicates the number of attacks per turn.

If a fantastic type (with FC) fights a normal type, their FC indicates the number of attacks per turn.

If a fantastic type (without FC) fights a normal type, their HD equals the number of attacks per turn.

If a fantastic type fights a fantastic type, one attack is made, their HD or FC equals the damage die rolled.



Normal types can attack all normal types.
Normal types can attack some fantastic types.
Fantastic types can attack all normal types.
Fantastic types can attack all fantastic types.

Normal types possess <1 HD. Fantastic types possess >1 HD.



Q: Where does it say anything above 1 HD is considered Fantastic for the purposes of combat?
Q: A level 6 Magic-User is Fantastic but unable to attack a Balrog until level 7, whereas a level 3 Fighting-Man could attack a Balrog?
Q: Does Hero, Superhero, Wizard under Fighting Capability signify a Fantastic type or is it determined by HD?
Q: All attacks must be made against a single opponent or any of multiple targets the attacker is facing?

[waysoftheearth]

Welcome ODDYSSEUS.

One observation is that since we are talking about HD here, it's not really a Chainmail topic. Perhaps this discussion fits better in another area?
That aside, see my replies inline in blue below:

Mar 26, 2021 14:06:47 GMT -6 ODDYSSEUS said:

If a normal type fights a normal type, their FC indicates the number of attacks per turn.
Yes. Their normal FC, in terms of number of men they fight as, determines number of attacks. One normal attack per man value. I notice that you specify "per turn"; in D&D combat happens in rounds (of exchanges of blows), with some number of rounds per combat turn (as opposed to exploration turn, pursuit turn, campaign turn, or whatever).

If a fantastic type (with FC) fights a normal type, their FC indicates the number of attacks per turn.
Yes. A fantastic type (e.g., a Hero) also has a normal FC, in terms of number of men it fights as (e.g., a Hero's FC is Hero/4 men). So against normal types, a Hero has four normal attacks.

If a fantastic type (without FC) fights a normal type, their HD equals the number of attacks per turn.
Yes. E.g., a D&D Stone Giant isn't given an explicit normal FC, but it has an implicit normal FC of 9 men due to its 9 HD (and M&T p5).

If a fantastic type fights a fantastic type, one attack is made, their HD or FC equals the damage die rolled.
Mmm. I don't think this is explicit anywhere in the 3LBBs, but it might be a reasonable house rule if you want fast combat resolution.
The explicit advantage given to fantastic (i.e., above normal) figures in OD&D is an improved THAC2 on the Alternative Attack Matrices. Some of them (especially large sized figures) explicitly deal more damage dice on a hit, but it is typically in the 1 to 4 damage dice range.


Normal types can attack all normal types. Yes.
Normal types can attack some fantastic types. Yes. I'd say they can attack virtually all fantastic types, noting that some of these attacks may be ineffectual.
Fantastic types can attack all normal types. Yes.
Fantastic types can attack all fantastic types. Yes.
Generally, any figure can attack any other. There are a few rules (e.g., invulnerability to normal missiles, normal attacks) that will may make these attacks ineffectual.

Normal types possess <1 HD. Fantastic types possess >1 HD.
It's not really this clear cut. The 1 HD line in the sand is subject to debate, and there are quite a few topics on these boards discussing the nuances. e.g., this recent one: odd74.proboards.com/thread/13934/multiple-attacks-1-hd-creatures


Q: Where does it say anything above 1 HD is considered Fantastic for the purposes of combat? It doesn't.
Q: A level 6 Magic-User is Fantastic but unable to attack a Balrog until level 7, whereas a level 3 Fighting-Man could attack a Balrog? I suppose you mean that a D&D Magic-User doesn't explicitly have Hero FC until 7th level, and that a Man can't attack a Balrog on CM's FCT? I'd suggest this is a "grey area" to be resolved by the individual ref. You'd probably want to consider how CM's lower grades of Wizard (with wizard-1, wizard-2, wizard-3 FC) should--or shouldn't--be ported across to D&D. Notice also that M&M doesn't align HD, normal FC, or heroic/fantastic FC particularly neatly across the player classes...
Q: Does Hero, Superhero, Wizard under Fighting Capability signify a Fantastic type or is it determined by HD? Yes. Hero, superhero, and wizard FC are all fantastic FCs. Fantastic status is not clearly defined by number HD, although it's generally true that a larger number of HD implies a fantastic FC.
Q: All attacks must be made against a single opponent or any of multiple targets the attacker is facing? I don't think this is explicit. In fact in EPT it is explicit that damage can be dealt against multiple opponents.

Hope that's a helpful start

[ODDYSSEUS]

I had a creeping suspicion you'd be the one to come to my aid! Naturally, you answered all my questions and pointed the facts. Thank you. I wasn't sure where to post this given it deals with both Chainmail and OD&D (heavier on the OD&D side of things I must admit). So, follow-up question. Where is the typical damage range of 1 to 4 die spelled out? Forgive me if the answer is obvious and I just didn't see it! Thank you for your time and thank you for the link.

[waysoftheearth]

Mar 26, 2021 18:34:14 GMT -6 ODDYSSEUS said:

Where is the typical damage range of 1 to 4 die spelled out?

I think you need to piece it together from a collection of references including:
M&T p15 Sea Monsters,
M&T p17 Rocs,
M&T p20 Large Insects or Animals,
OD&D Correction Sheet: Page 14, line 24: "doing two, three or four dice of damage (depending on size)!" Referring to the Balrog description in M&T.

[ODDYSSEUS]

No one said this would be easy (or quick)! So much to learn... My head is still spinning from reading into the link you sent! Thank you, again, my friend.