Gary Gygax's Fiction Novels - any good?

[tdenmark]

I don't know why I haven't read any of Gary's novels. When the first ones came out I was still a raging Gary fanboy (since tempered by reality, time, and learning more about him...the stuff 'they' don't talk about).

When Gord the Rogue came out I think I was turned off by the name. Gord just doesn't sound cool to me. Names like Conan, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, Elric, Hawkmoon, and so on have a ring to them. Gord? Not so much. Shallow reasoning? Yes, but that's how kids are sometimes.

For some reason I have been getting very curious about his novels lately. Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil have pretty good reviews, but I can't separate the fanboys from the legitimate reviewers. His Mythus books though seem to be much less loved.

Are any of his novels worth reading?

[tdenmark]

Mar 10, 2021 4:32:59 GMT -6 Piper said:

I read them all when they first came out.

Including his Dangerous Journeys novels?

[doublejig2]

They're necessary for an understanding of Greyhawk.

[kipper]

I really liked all of the Gord novels back in my youth. I re-read some of the Gord novels recently (within the last 5 years), and perhaps needless to say I didn't enjoy them nearly as much as I used to.

Saga of Old City: I enjoyed the start of the story about Gord’s childhood in the city of Greyhawk, but it goes downhill when he leaves the city and becomes embroiled in affairs of state.
Artifact of Evil: I actually skipped reading this one because as I recall it's more of the stuff I didn't enjoy in the first book.
Sea of Death: I especially enjoyed the pulpy adventures below the sea of dust and the political bickering amongst the demons. This is currently my favourite Gord novel.
Night Arrant: A collection of short stories, often action-packed and humorous. They somewhat remind me of the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories, but don't get your hopes up based on that comparison, these are distinctly inferior. I did enjoy this book though, but not as much as Sea of Death.

Overall none of these books are great, they are passable at best but Sea of Death and Night Arrant can be worth reading in my opinion if you're in the mood and don't go in with high expectations.

[geoffrey]

Mar 10, 2021 2:50:03 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Are any of his novels worth reading?

Alas, no. I would have thought that the author of such evocative works as the D trilogy of modules, S1, and the DMG would have penned well-written novels. To me, all of Gary's fiction is dreadful.

[talysman]

Only read Saga of Old City, and that was a long time ago. I remember it only being average. I was entertained in a couple places, for example the description of the ridiculous feast in an inn, but not much stands out.

I'd compare his writing to a lot of the hack fantasy writers from the '20s through the '60s. Not the really good ones, but the guys who's names you can't remember. You can enjoy their stuff, but it's basically junk food. You don't read it for its fine quality.

[doublejig2]

Mar 10, 2021 8:58:45 GMT -6 Piper said:

Mar 10, 2021 8:10:49 GMT -6 doublejig2 said:

They're necessary for an understanding of Greyhawk.

I disagree with the premise reading these books is necessary to understand GH.

You might be right. The first two books were eye openers for me.

[geoffrey]

If Gary had written his novels with as much fantastic beauty as is found in his passages below, he would be my favorite fantasy novelist.

From dungeon module G3: HALL OF THE FIRE GIANT KING:

Ages past, when the elvenfolk were but new to the face of the earth, their number was torn by discord, and those of better disposition drove from them those of the elves who were selfish and cruel. However, constant warfare between the two divisions of elvenkind continued, with the goodly ones ever victorious, until those of dark nature were forced to withdraw from the lands under the skies and seek safety in the realm of the underworld. Here, in lightless caverns and endless warrens of twisting passages and caves hung with icicles of stone, the Dark Elvenfolk, the Drow, found both refuge and comfort. Over the centuries they grew strong once again and schooled themselves in arcane arts. And if they were strong enough to face and defeat their former brethren in battle, the Drow no longer desired to walk upon the green lands under the sun and stars. They no longer desired a life in the upper world, being content with the gloomy fairyland beneath the earth that they had made their own. Yet they neither forgive nor forget, and above all else they bear enmity for all of their distant kin--elves and faeries--who drove them down and now dwell in the meadows and dells of the bright world. Though they are seldom if ever seen by any human or demi-human, the Drow still persist, and occasionally they enter lower dungeon levels and consort with other creatures in order to work out their schemes and inflict revenge upon those who inhabit the world above.

From dungeon module D3: VAULT OF THE DROW:

The true splendor 01 the Vault can be appreciated only by those with infravision, or by use of the roseate lenses or a gem of seeing. The Vault is a strange anomaly, a hemispherical cyst in the crust of the earth, an incredibly huge domed vault over 6 miles long and nearly as broad. The dome overhead is a hundred feet high at the walls, arching to several thousand feet height in the center. When properly viewed, the radiation from certain unique minerals give the visual effect of a starry heaven, while near the zenith of this block stone bowl is a huge mass of tumkeoite--which in its slow decay and transformation to lacofcite sheds a lurid gleam, a ghostly plum-colored light to human eyes, but with ultravision a wholly different sight.

The small "star'· nodes glow in radiant hues of mauve, lake, violet, puce, lilac, and deep blue. The large "moon" of tumkeoite casts beams of shimmering amethyst which touch the crystalline formations with colors unknown to any other visual experience. The lichens seem to glow in rose madder and pale damson, the fungi growths in golden and red ochres, vermillions, russets, citron, and aquamarine shades. (Elsewhere the river and other water courses sheen a deep velvety purple with reflected highlights from the radiant gleams overhead vying with streaks and whorls of old silver where the liquid laps the stony banks or surges against the ebon piles of the jetties and bridge of the elfin city for the viewers' attention.) The rock walls of the Vault appear hazy and insubstantial in the wine-colored light, more like mist than solid walls. The place is indeed a dark fairyland.

From dungeon module D2: SHRINE OF THE KUO-TOA:

The ancient Kuo-Toa People once inhabited the shores and islands of the upper world. As the race of mankind and its associate species grew more and more numerous and powerful, the men-fish were slowly driven to remote regions. Continual warfare upon these evil, human-sacrificing creatures threatened to totally exterminate the species, for a number of powerful beings were aiding their sworn enemies, mankind. Some Kuo-Toans sought refuge in sea caverns and secret subterranean waters, and while their fellows above were being slaughtered. These few prospered and developed new characteristics to match their lightless habitats. However. the seas contained other fierce and evil creatures with designs of their own, and the deep-dwelling Kuo-Toans were eventually wiped out, leaving only those in the underworld to carry on. These survivors were unknown to men, and mankind eventually forgot the men-fish entirely. Even the word goggler. a term used derisively for their ichthyoid foes, lost its meaning. But the Kuo-Toa People remaining in their underworld places did not allow memory of the past to lapse, and woe to the hapless human who falls into the slimy clutches of the Kuo-Toans!

The party is met by a chilling scene when first they step far enough northwest to view the dimly lit space ahead. Greenish phosphorescence from lichens, coupled with a grayish luminosity from slug-like creatures as large as a man's fist which crawl everywhere (walls, ceilings, floors) give the area an undersea appearance, and a strange salt tang is in the air to enhance this impression. Directly to the north the adventurers will see a huge dark green creature, rather like a giant lobster-headed woman, with one pincer raised and the right extended ahead and open. This stone idol is detailed at 4. below. The walls and pavement of this place are well-made, but very worn. Obviously, this area is old. It feels alien and foreboding. The shape of the stones and the illumination of the area are wrong to any creatures from the upper world, particularly warm-blooded ones.

[Falconer]

Low-level Leiberesque Adventures:
Saga of Old City
“At Moonset Blackcat Comes”
Night Arrant


Mid-level Tolkienesque Epic:
Artifact of Evil
Sea of Death


High-level Moorcockian Fantasy:
City of Hawks
Come Endless Darkness
Dance of Demons


I have read these multiple times, other than the last three, which I don’t enjoy. It was thrilling to hunt these down. Since these are “real” Greyhawk stories straight from the mind of Gary Gygax, which have subsequently been ignored by the franchise, there is a legit aura of lost lore about them. I’m not going to lie, these books are flawed, especially the dialogue. But there is a lot of great imagination and worldbuilding at play. My favorites would have to be the “Tolkienesques,” which of course hit a sweet spot for me, especially Artifact of Evil. And the first two stories of Night Arrant are an absolute must.

[Zenopus]

T. Foster (foster1941) wrote review of Night Arrant a few years back where he talked about the gems & flaws of Gygax's writing throughout the series:

mystical-trash-heap.blogspot.com/2017/04/books-night-arrant.html

[Zenopus]

Mar 10, 2021 5:57:28 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Including his Dangerous Journeys novels?

About 5 years ago, I chanced on a used copy of the Anubis Murders, the first DJ book, and read it. With this series, he shifted to what I'd call a "Magical Murder Mystery", featuring a wizardly Sherlock Holmes stand-in. The main character is Setne Inhetep, an Egyptian "wizard-priest", who investigates a murder in Avillon (fantasy renaissance England). As with the Gord series, the descriptions and concepts are better than the dialogue and characterization. It's probably mostly of interest if you want to immerse yourself in Aerth, Gygax's first version of fantasy earth (he created another one for Lejendary Adventures).

[Finarvyn]

I read a couple of the DJ novels and enjoyed them. I also read the first couple of Greyhawk books and liked the "historical" background (I've heard that the books are more like Gary's home campaign than the folio and boxed set are) but didn't enjoy his writing style enough to plow through the entire series. I've owned them all for decades, but honestly haven't taken the time to read the rest.

So, overall I'd say good but not great. Sometimes I think Gary forced a thesaurus on us, which isn't quite the same as Tolkien using archaic words but I guess in some ways can be just as frustrating to some readers.

[howandwhy99]

It's clear Gary work at improving his writing. He's not like an average educated person just sitting down and writing a diary or posting on a message board. I know he did a lot of correspondence over the decades, he was a prolific writer, and he would often create a great deal of material in a single year. From the novels you can see he worked at composition and sentence structure and the overall storylines. But it is over 15 years now since I've read them last.

Like other say he is an average writer and his last two books in the series were done "writing angry", once he had been removed from TSR. Much of his work is emulation. Though I think he wrote like what he loved. And I wouldn't take any of his novels to be his realization of his campaign game worlds. His modules, his great modules at least, are far better than anything in the novels. Besides, reading a novel is not like playing an RPG. As a player it is you who has to come up with the brilliant ideas and due to chance, brilliant or not, your plans might fail anyways.

I think my favorite novel of his is Saga of Old City. If only because it is the standard D&D advancement game. Where it is you against the world and tricks and traps surround you, plots and schemes foil your own plans to get ahead, NPCs are usually not to be trusted, and you have to scrap your way up from the bottom.

[tdenmark]

Mar 10, 2021 10:49:25 GMT -6 geoffrey said:

If Gary had written his novels with as much fantastic beauty as is found in his passages below, he would be my favorite fantasy novelist.

That's the thing. His module writing was terrific! He wrote some of the greatest adventures that have held up to the test of time. The introduction to The Temple of Tharizdun is one of my favorite pieces of writing.

The 1e DM's Guide while rambly, disorganized, and verbose, is still really enjoyable to read.

But there is a lot more to a novel than pretty prose. Plot, character, dialogue, pacing, and so on.

What I'm gathering here is that Artifact of Evil and Sea of Death and maybe Saga of Old City are worth reading if you happen to find a reasonable used copy or borrow it from the library, but not worth plunking down the $30-$40 plus shipping copies you find on Amazon or eBay.

[Finarvyn]

Mar 10, 2021 21:22:45 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

What I'm gathering here is that Artifact of Evil and Sea of Death and maybe Saga of Old City are worth reading if you happen to find a reasonable used copy or borrow it from the library, but not worth plunking down the $30-$40 plus shipping copies you find on Amazon or eBay.

That's a fair statement. I think that the problem is that Gary's books are hard to find because most had low print runs and the Gygax name makes them a collector's item, so asking price is often above actual value unless you are a "completest" and just have to read everything that Gary wrote.

Both Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil were distributed through a major publisher (my books say TSR but they seem like a major group did them and I remember seeing copies everywhere back in the day) and seem relatively common, but the rest of the Gord books are from "New Infinites" and I think the print run was significantly smaller (or, at least I had a much harder time finding them at the time). My knowledge on this is weak, so maybe someone else can supply better info.

[samvandenberg]

Unpopular opinion: Dance of Demons is wonderful, in its own special way.

     (Caution: The following contains massive spoilers!) I read it a while ago and found it might provide a glimpse into Gary's 1988 mind. First of all, I really enjoyed the long, totally bizarre sentences involving the madness going on in the Abyss. I've always loved the fantastically cool words Gary would choose in his writing. Second, and more importantly, this is really the story of Gary un-making Greyhawk. Remember, at this time Gary has been cruelly forced out of his own company and has lost all game development rights for his own fantasy world(!). So, it's like we get to watch him say, "Okay, they think they've won? Well, I made all this s&#$ up and I can just as well tear it down! The fans will follow me!", right?

     It's often, maybe too often, that we get to see the genesis of a fantasy world, but very rarely do we get to see it destroyed personally by its own creator out of a righteous spite. He would officially destroy the Greyhawk Universe, and any legitimacy TSR had over it, and introduce us to the next masterpiece, Dangerous Dimensions!

     Go get 'em Gary! Fight on!

     

[samvandenberg]

Oh, and we get to the bottom of Castle Greyhawk!

[talysman]

Mar 11, 2021 5:45:02 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Both Saga of Old City and Artifact of Evil were distributed through a major publisher (my books say TSR but they seem like a major group did them and I remember seeing copies everywhere back in the day)

For some inexplicable reason, my copy of Saga of Old City isn't packed away in a box like most of my possessions and is, instead, sitting a few feet away. Quick check says: imprint says TSR on the cover and title page, but the copyright page mentions Random House handled the distribution.

[Falconer]

Random house has done TSR/D&D’s distribution since the Monster Manual to this very day.

[Zenopus]

Mar 10, 2021 14:56:39 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Mar 10, 2021 5:57:28 GMT -6 tdenmark said:

Including his Dangerous Journeys novels?

About 5 years ago, I chanced on a used copy of the Anubis Murders, the first DJ book, and read it. With this series, he shifted to what I'd call a "Magical Murder Mystery", featuring a wizardly Sherlock Holmes stand-in. The main character is Setne Inhetep, an Egyptian "wizard-priest", who investigates a murder in Avillon (fantasy renaissance England). As with the Gord series, the descriptions and concepts are better than the dialogue and characterization. It's probably mostly of interest if you want to immerse yourself in Aerth, Gygax's first version of fantasy earth (he created another one for Lejendary Adventures).

BTW, Paizo still has new copies of Gygax's four "Dangerous Journeys" (set in Aerth) novels for sale for $13 each. The first three are reprints of the original trilogy of Setne Inhetep stories. The fourth, Infernal Sorceress, is one that was written around the same time as those, and rediscovered many years later and printed by Paizo for the first time in 2008 (shortly after Gygax passed away). It has different characters (Ferret and Raker) but is set in the same world.

paizo.com/search?what=products&q=gygax

[Red Baron]

The prose is disappointing, but the characters and weirdo gygaxian greyhawk-ey tidbits are good fun!