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Post by delta on Feb 24, 2021 21:37:45 GMT -6
I had a viewer on our last Sunday talk show ask what I thought was a fascinating question -- "Can you name a rule changed in AD&D that was clearly an improvement over what was in OD&D?" Not merely filling-in-gaps or addressing something undefined, but clearly a change that was for the better. And he pretty much totally stumped me.
Now, a couple of thoughts from this: (a) It sort of highlights how my backwards-discovery (had AD&D as a kid, OD&D only about a decade ago) was one of being much better pleased when I finally saw what was in OD&D. (b) I'm aware of, say, Mentzer's quote recently that Gygax & co. were pretty explicit about maintaining continuity that anything that happened in an OD&D game had to also happen likewise in an AD&D game (so that makes it more likely to not have radical changes).
The only things I could come up with were fill-in-the-gap stuff, and weirdly all related to XP -- (a) explicit values for off-the-chart XP progression, (b) rule for XP loss on level-drain, (c) explicit XP values for magic items (assuming you play with that).
Can you think of AD&D rules that you think were clearly improved from their OD&D definitions?
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Post by jeffb on Feb 24, 2021 22:01:50 GMT -6
Starting spell for level 1 clerics.
I'm still thinking.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 25, 2021 2:50:56 GMT -6
Cleric Name level at 9th (and 225k XP).
Saving throw vs spells adjustment for wisdom.
(Arguably) increased level limits for non-humans was an "improvement".
Also, multiclass options for non-humans possibly an "improvement" over OD&D's combination figures.
Staffs for M-Us.
Strongholds and taxes for Name level M-Us.
Division of monsters into 10 Monster Level Tables rather than 6.
MM consolidated virtually all the then known D&D monsters into one volume.
Merging the normal and fantastic combat systems into a single combat system.
Defensive adjustments modifying the defender's AC rather than the attacker's to hit roll.
Rationalised missile attack adjustments for range.
Planes of existence replaced the "null dimensions"...
There'll be some more finicky details I'm sure...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2021 6:35:00 GMT -6
Starting spell for level 1 clerics. I'm still thinking. Yep. Gary must have really loved that one, since he sort of allowed it in his convention Whitebox games later on, anecdotally. |
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Post by asaki on Feb 25, 2021 22:49:21 GMT -6
Without thinking too hard about it, I will say that I like the revised and expanded shopping lists, and I like that prices are measured in more than just gold pieces.
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Post by tombowings on Feb 26, 2021 7:00:02 GMT -6
I prefer the AD&D to hit and saving throw tables.
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 26, 2021 13:20:51 GMT -6
Can you think of AD&D rules that you think were clearly improved from their OD&D definitions? I'm having a hard time with this. AD&D has a lot of cool new stuff, such as the Fiend Folio, but rules? Hmm... |
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Post by Zenopus on Feb 26, 2021 15:02:55 GMT -6
Gnomes and Half-Orcs.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2021 16:06:18 GMT -6
Gnomes and Half-Orcs. My man. |
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 26, 2021 19:15:21 GMT -6
Gnomes and Half-Orcs. To me, that's stuff rather than rules. I think of the following five categories as "stuff": 1. races 2. classes 3. spells 4. monsters 5. magic items  |
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Post by tdenmark on Feb 26, 2021 22:29:03 GMT -6
To me, that's stuff rather than rules. So far I'd call all of these "stuff" rather than rules. Charitably I'd call some of them tweaks. But actual improved rules? Nope. I can't think of any either. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 27, 2021 3:30:08 GMT -6
Maybe the ask is to focus on the dungeon/wilderness/town generation, dungeon/wilderness exploration, encounter and treasure generation, and combat execution rules? Generally, I think AD&D adds an extra layer of specificity to these; a lot of which isn't IMHO necessarily an "improvement". If the two games have more or less similar coverage, and OD&D is more general and AD&D more specific, then it's challenging to identify "improvements" in AD&D if one prefers the more general framework Still seems to me that AD&D is the first place a single D&D combat system (the "Alternative" system) is defined in detail. OD&D has the normal-fantastic combat dichotomy, even if few people bother with it (because it's easier to backport later D&D combat systems to fill the apparent void in OD&D). |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Feb 27, 2021 5:35:36 GMT -6
Surprise: AD&D omits OD&D's 1 in 4 chance of dropping things when surprised.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2021 11:26:44 GMT -6
The glorious covers of the AD&D 1e Players Handbook and DMG and the monsters drawn in the Monster Manual - not a rules change per say, but are any rules the same after these?  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2021 11:35:05 GMT -6
Multi-classing or more race/class options in general are things I can get behind. I grew up with Mentzer style and that just wasn't a thing. I know OD&D allows quite a bit with Half Elves specifically but as a kid I had no way of knowing about that.
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Post by asaki on Feb 27, 2021 14:45:50 GMT -6
The glorious covers of the AD&D 1e Players Handbook and DMG and the monsters drawn in the Monster Manual - not a rules change per say, but are any rules the same after these? Oh yeah, all of the art in AD&D is a huge improvement. |
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Post by tombowings on Feb 28, 2021 0:22:51 GMT -6
The glorious covers of the AD&D 1e Players Handbook and DMG and the monsters drawn in the Monster Manual - not a rules change per say, but are any rules the same after these? Oh yeah, all of the art in AD&D is a huge improvement. Honestly, I like the hazy dream-like tone of the LBB art. They remind me of drawings of armature natural philosophers. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2021 8:21:08 GMT -6
Oh yeah, all of the art in AD&D is a huge improvement. Honestly, I like the hazy dream-like tone of the LBB art. They remind me of drawings of armature natural philosophers. They remind me of the doodles my teacher superimposed "see me after class" on during the majority of my exams in middle school. |
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Mar 1, 2021 1:15:32 GMT -6
AD&D Paladin was much improved over the OD&D Paladin in all respects.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 1, 2021 3:10:48 GMT -6
The AD&D paladin gets more of the cleric's stuff, but is it a rules improvement?
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Post by captainjapan on Mar 1, 2021 7:38:58 GMT -6
If we include Unearthed Arcana, I would say weapon specialization. You could create a first level dart throwing champion, dealing an automatic 12 points of damage on a successful hit.
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Post by jeffb on Mar 1, 2021 8:35:16 GMT -6
While I am a massive fan of DCS AND DAT, I'm not sure I'd say that the AD&D art is necc "better". Technically, yes they were better artists. But I dig DCS' early work in the supps (especially Swords & Spells), as well young Master Bell's .. er...traced and modified...work. That Japanese Ogre for vibe is better than any Ogre Magi I've seen since. FIGHT ON!
Technically the artists working on 5E are miles ahead of anything TSR did right?
Fortunately, in art, technical ability doesn't mean squat.
That said, I thought we were talking about RULES improvements. I cannot say I have thought of many that were "clear winners" they just seem to be different takes. Generally I'm of the mind that AD&D mucked up more than it "fixed" and D&D really wasn't "fixed" until Moldvay/Cook/Marsh (and even then , it could use a few tweaks, like bringing back the GH Fighter, and giving the cleric that 1st level spell).
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Mar 1, 2021 9:37:58 GMT -6
The AD&D paladin gets more of the cleric's stuff, but is it a rules improvement? I really think it is. Of course, that's just my opinion. |
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 1, 2021 14:01:10 GMT -6
...young Master Bell's .. er...traced and modified...work. That Japanese Ogre for vibe is better than any Ogre Magi I've seen since. FIGHT ON! Preach it. |
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Post by geoffrey on Mar 1, 2021 14:04:26 GMT -6
Generally I'm of the mind that AD&D mucked up more than it "fixed" and D&D really wasn't "fixed" until Moldvay/Cook/Marsh... Once again, preach it! I've been using B/X as my rules, adding in some of the missing spells, monsters, and magic items from Supplement I: GREYHAWK. Seriously, B/X + GREYHAWK is all I need. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 1, 2021 15:55:58 GMT -6
Now we're going to need an epic table that compares the rules features of OD&D, AD&D, B/X |
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Post by tdenmark on Mar 1, 2021 18:18:18 GMT -6
Fortunately, in art, technical ability doesn't mean squat. |
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Post by jeffb on Mar 1, 2021 19:02:57 GMT -6
Fortunately, in art, technical ability doesn't mean squat. ^^  What I meant is, like beauty, good art is in the eye of the beholder. I would much rather peruse the galleries of DCS, Dee, Roslof, Willingham, Louise Perrin, Erol Otus, Liz Danforth, Morno, etc than a Elmore, Lockwood, Reynolds, or any person who has done something for the 5E books. Technically they are better artists, but that "old comic book" or "amateur" or "sketchbook" art from The Hobby's Golden Age speaks to me in a way that those guys do not. That said, there are many technically proficient artists I love too- too many to list. |
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Post by delta on Mar 4, 2021 11:18:17 GMT -6
Surprise: AD&D omits OD&D's 1 in 4 chance of dropping things when surprised. You know what, now that you mentioned it: I'd be pretty on-board on picking that as a great deletion myself. Now, to play devil's advocate: AD&D doesn't explicitly say not to do that, either. Given the Menzterian axiom ("AD&D expands and doesn't contradict anything in OD&D"), and Gary's tendency to include stuff from OD&D implicitly without copying them forward (wandering monster checks, naval combat specifics, etc.) I fear if we asked Gary he might have said, "Oh yeah, keep doing that, it's obviously reasonable". But more importantly, I agree, that rule hurts me when I read it. |
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Post by tdenmark on Mar 4, 2021 11:29:09 GMT -6
^^ What I meant is, like beauty, good art is in the eye of the beholder. I teach art at a university and this issue comes up a lot. For some reason in American education art is demoted to a lesser status, whereas art used to be a serious and necessary skill - anyone can learn the rules of perspective, understanding of light & color, good composition, and basic anatomy as part of a larger fully rounded education. JRR Tolkien is one of my favorite examples, a true scholar who also had the benefit of an education that included visual arts. Being able to represent your ideas in visuals as well as in words and math is highly valuable. (I wish I'd taken math more seriously in high school) I blame the Modern Art movements of the early 20th century that turned art into a joke. Ok, sorry for the tangent, back to AD&D rules that improved D&D. Here is my top 10 list: |
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