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Post by tkdco2 on Feb 3, 2021 16:16:42 GMT -6
I've heard the argument that magic in Middle-earth is generally subtle, and many D&D spells wouldn't fit in the setting. While that is true, there are exceptions. Gandalf doesn't often display his power in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. However, there are times he has used his magic in combat. This passage is from The Hobbit, in the chapter “Out of the Frying-pan into the Fire”. This passage is from The Fellowship of the Ring, in the chapter “A Journey in the Dark”. Are these examples proof that the Fireball spell exists in Middle-earth (albeit with different spell components), or would another spell be more appropriate? Here's the scene in question from the first Hobbit movie:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 11:56:23 GMT -6
I believe in both these instances, the wizard is causing pre existing material to conflagrate rather than summoning a ball of fire from thin air. There's a spell in AD&D that closely matches the pine cone example and is cited in the controversial "Gandalf is only a fifth level Magic-User" article that makes the rounds when this topic comes up. The short answer IMO is that Gandalf does not use Fireball as we understand it, but he does know many spells and his Elven ring of fire gives him a particular affinity for that element.
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Post by tombowings on Feb 6, 2021 12:47:07 GMT -6
I enjoying running Middle Earth with fireballs, purple worms, and assassins. Because why not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2021 12:53:31 GMT -6
I enjoying running Middle Earth with fireballs, purple worms, and assassins. Because why not. That's very First Age/Silmarillion period stuff and that would be a fantastic campaign since that's the Biblical level storytelling of the setting. Stuff like a flying Elven ship taking down a Kaiju sized black Dragon. Sure thing. Love that.
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Post by Porphyre on Feb 6, 2021 13:21:52 GMT -6
Gandalf's major displays of wizardry power in fact mostly happen off-scene, like his duel with Saruman, the fight in the Endless stair against the Balrog , or the night when he was assailed by the Nazgûl on Weathertop. This last one left the top of the hill mostly scortched and the fireworks were visibles miles away in the night. So yes, I guess it was FireBalls ...
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Post by tkdco2 on Feb 6, 2021 15:42:15 GMT -6
I posted the same question in a Middle-earth forum. Someone suggested a Fire Bolt spell would be a better match. It is a fifth edition cantrip, so I'm not so familiar with it in D&D. It is a MERP spell, so I know that version.
The druid spell Fire Seeds, especially the second edition writeup, is another contender, especially in the movie version of The Hobbit.
The poster I mentioned earlier said that Gandalf's spell at Caradhras corresponded more closely to Wall of Fire than Fireball.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Feb 7, 2021 0:59:56 GMT -6
Gandalf does say at one point in FOTR (in the snow on Caradhras) "I cannot burn snow", so he clearly isn't conjuring fire 'from thin air'.
But the part with the "blazing brand" you quote does rather sound to me like Gandalf made the wood explode in some kind of deflagration, so I am not sure how different this is *in actual functionality* to a D&D fireball spell with a wooden brand rather than bat guano and sulfur as components.
The part with the pinecones from The Hobbit I always assumed to be the specific inspiration for the Fire Seeds spell, and was never clear why it was made a druid spell rather than wizard/M-U. (Although I think Middle-Earth Wizards really combine elements of D&D/AD&D wizards, druids, and bards -- besides being essentially angelic beings stuck in human form.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2021 6:27:52 GMT -6
Gandalf's major displays of wizardry power in fact mostly happen off-scene, like his duel with Saruman, the fight in the Endless stair against the Balrog , or the night when he was assailed by the Nazgûl on Weathertop. This last one left the top of the hill mostly scortched and the fireworks were visibles miles away in the night. So yes, I guess it was FireBalls ... It's possible that when he fought the Wraiths and Durin's Bane and nobody was around to see, he was free to unveil himself and fight with his full Maiar powers. He was given specific instruction by the Powers in the West to not do too many big, flashy things in front of people but to lead and inspire. If there's no people around and he's fighting for his life, he can probably go full Angel in short spurts. So, in these instances, I'm not picturing fireballs so much as a being literally wreathed in holy light and wielding a flaming sword.
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Post by Finarvyn on Feb 7, 2021 8:43:34 GMT -6
I think that much of the "subtle magic" of Tolkien's world is based on the fact that everyday items (toys, fireworks, and so on) often have elements of magic associated with them. Clearly Gandalf's use of fire magic isn't that subtle, although as ampleframework noted, most of Gandalf's fire magic came by combusting stuff rather than making fire from scratch. Add into that the fact that Gandalf also wielded Narya (one of the Three; the ring of fire) so it's hard to say how much of Gandalf's fire magic came from him and how much from the ring. If you are interested, I took my edition of Hobbit and LotR and made a list of Gandalf's spells. It's in a thread from 2010: odd74.proboards.com/thread/5837/gandalfs-spells-middle-earth
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