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Post by Falconer on Jan 29, 2021 12:49:09 GMT -6
In The Peoples of Middle-earth, in the chapter “Of Dwarves and Men,” Tolkien reveals evocative names for all Seven Houses of the Dwarves. The first three are known to us from the stories—the Firebeards of Nogrod, the Broadbeams of Belegost, and the Longbeards of Moria. Of the rest, Tolkien gives us scant info. Their awakening places and the bulk of their activity was away off the main map of Northwest Middle-earth. Presumably they had lesser skill than the Firebeards and lesser virtue than the Longbeards. Some even fought on the side of Sauron in the Last Alliance. The MERP and Decipher RPGs each supplied their own fleshed-out versions of the Seven Houses, inventing names for the Seven Fathers and describing some of their characteristics and mansions and histories. MERP, of course, came up with much more substantial lore than Decipher did, and it’s more gonzo (for better or for worse). They mapped out the whole continent, and placed all over it modules involving these “tribes” Dwarves, and provided a substantial summary in The Lords of Middle-earth, Vol. III. Note that these predated the publication of The Peoples of Middle-earth, however. Decipher’s Moria postdates The Peoples of Middle-earth, and therefore is more directly inspired by it. But it is still possible to generally reconcile the various sources, with slight changes, thus: MERP # | MERP Father | TOLKIEN Descriptive | DECIPHER Father | DECIPHER # | 1 | Durin | Longbeards | Durin | 1 | 4 | Thrár | Firebeards | Úri | 2 | 3 | Dwálin | Broadbeams | Linnar | 3 | 5 | Thelór | Ironfists | Sindri | 4 | – | – | Stiffbeards | Thulin | 5 | 6 | Drúin | Blacklocks | Var | 6 | 2 | Bávor | (branch of Blacklocks) | – | – | 7 | Barin | Stonefoots | Vigdís | 7 |
There are various fan essays expounding on and expanding on this, and making a lot of tweaks. For me, the above table is just fine for helping me use any RPG material (mostly MERP’s) with Tolkien’s “descriptive” tribe names. I don’t think much of any of the invented Fathers’ names, but I think the question can be largely avoided, with the leftmost option defaulted to if necessary (as the Northmen’s name for them). Another thought that occurs to me is that Decipher’s concept of the Stiffbeards (Thulin’s Folk) as an “arctic” culture makes a good substitute for MERP’s Umli, which was always a pretty strange concept in my eyes.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 30, 2021 1:14:38 GMT -6
The Umli are a bit strange, but they are the invention of Iron Crown Enterprises. You can always ignore them. The names of the Fathers of the Dwarves given in MERP were invented because the game came out before the clans of the Dwarves were revealed in the History series. I didn't know them until fairly recently, when I looked them up online. Not having the Decipher game, I can't comment on it.
In one Tolkien forum, I joked that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves were Doc, Dopey, Sneezy, Sleepy, Happy, Grumpy, and Bashful.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 31, 2021 12:45:41 GMT -6
But on a serious note, where is the information of the Dwarf clans found? I presume somewhere in the History series. I only have the first five books, so I don't know all the contents of the others.
Edit: Never mind, that info is in the original post.
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Post by geoffrey on Jan 31, 2021 15:47:21 GMT -6
In one Tolkien forum, I joked that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves were Doc, Dopey, Sneezy, Sleepy, Happy, Grumpy, and Bashful. That is awesome. And it fits with the sort of characters Bilbo found crashing his larder.
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Post by Falconer on Jan 31, 2021 19:44:38 GMT -6
If you’ve never seen the Old Icelandic rhyme where Tolkien got all his dwarf-names, here it is (from The Poetic Edda, tr. Lee Hollander): And this is why I say the father of the Firebeards should be Mótsognir.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Jan 31, 2021 22:09:32 GMT -6
Yeah, I was pretty surprised when I found out all those names came straight from Norse mythology. (IIRC Tolkien later regretted this, as The Hobbit wasn't originally intended to be exactly part of his 'serious' Silmarillion work...)
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Post by Starbeard on Feb 4, 2021 0:43:26 GMT -6
Motsognir is a good candidate. If it seems like too much of a mouthful, one could always modernize it here or there, Motsogner/Modsogner, or Motsog/Modsog.
A few years ago I began an idea to write up a Tolkien-themed OD&D or B/X variant, with race as class including all the branches and "tribes." There would be seven dwarf classes, one for each house, mostly similar but with enough variations that they would be distinct classes. I never did get very far with it before moving to other things, though.
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Post by Falconer on Feb 4, 2021 9:22:34 GMT -6
I was just thinking that since Tolkien was clearly thinking in terms of there being two types of Dwarves (in both The Book of Lost Tales and in the first edition of The Hobbit), and with one of the two fathers being Durin, likely he got this idea FROM the passage about Mótsognir and Durin.
Of course it’s possible that if Tolkien had used it he could have changed it. Actually it occurs to me that the Lord of Nogrod from BoLt, Naugladur, bears a passing resemblance to Mótsognir (AND a little resemblance to Durin).
I like your idea of an all-dwarf campaign. Maybe you could use the Berserker and Runecaster classes from the 2e Vikings book, and the Dwarf Craftsman and Pyrologist classes from Liaisons Dangereuses. Is this along the lines you were thinking?
Longbeard Thief Firebeard Pyrologist Broadbeam Fighter Ironfist Craftsman Stiffbeard Berserker Blacklock Runecaster Stonefoot Cleric
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 4, 2021 9:26:22 GMT -6
Tolkien also wrote that the plural of "dwarf" should be "dwarrows". I like that.
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Post by Starbeard on Feb 4, 2021 9:40:41 GMT -6
I was just thinking that since Tolkien was clearly thinking in terms of there being two types of Dwarves (in both The Book of Lost Tales and in the first edition of The Hobbit), and with one of the two fathers being Durin, likely he got this idea FROM the passage about Mótsognir and Durin. Of course it’s possible that if Tolkien had used it he could have changed it. Actually it occurs to me that the Lord of Nogrod from BoLt, Naugladur, bears a passing resemblance to Mótsognir (AND a little resemblance to Durin). I like your idea of an all-dwarf campaign. Maybe you could use the Berserker and Runecaster classes from the 2e Vikings book, and the Dwarf Craftsman and Pyrologist classes from Liaisons Dangereuses. Is this along the lines you were thinking? Longbeard Thief Firebeard Pyrologist Broadbeam Fighter Ironfist Craftsman Stiffbeard Berserker Blacklock Runecaster Stonefoot Cleric That is exactly the sort of idea. My thought was to make them somewhere less than a full fighter-blank multiclass but more than a fighter subclass, though simply pairing the dwarf race with standard or optional classes to create each also works just as well. In my head, they should all be fighter types of some stripe or another, but still unique between themselves and rounded out so that you could create a balanced party just out of dwarves.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Feb 4, 2021 11:09:22 GMT -6
I was just thinking that since Tolkien was clearly thinking in terms of there being two types of Dwarves (in both The Book of Lost Tales and in the first edition of The Hobbit), and with one of the two fathers being Durin, likely he got this idea FROM the passage about Mótsognir and Durin. Of course it’s possible that if Tolkien had used it he could have changed it. Actually it occurs to me that the Lord of Nogrod from BoLt, Naugladur, bears a passing resemblance to Mótsognir (AND a little resemblance to Durin). Huh! Good thought, I never thought of that...
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Post by geoffrey on Feb 10, 2021 11:32:28 GMT -6
I was just thinking that since Tolkien was clearly thinking in terms of there being two types of Dwarves (in both The Book of Lost Tales and in the first edition of The Hobbit), and with one of the two fathers being Durin, likely he got this idea FROM the passage about Mótsognir and Durin. That makes a lot of sense.
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