D&D 5E magic influx

[hamurai]

I was reading Tasha's Cauldron yesterday and checking some of the new class options. When I looked at the picture of the Dragonborn Bard of the Creation College animating a statue to dance with a woman while the tavern crowd applauded, it hit me: This is major magic used in a trivial situation for nothing but amusement. And checking the other class options (from some other publications, too) I realized, more and more magical abilities are added to the classes, and what used to be spells at some point become mere magical tricks.

It reminds me of the Earthdawn setting, where every class uses magic at least in a minor matter on a daily basis.

Examples of the new 5E abilities include

• the animation of objects (level 6 ability), the creation of objects (level 3), both for Bards;
  
• the Psi-Warrior archetype for Fighters which sort of copies spell effects as psionics and uses them as abilities, like an "easy-to-use" Arcane Knight archetype which doesn't bother with spell slots and the problem to balance several ability scores;
• the Fey Wanderer archetype for rangers (which would be an interesting background for any class, really);
• the creation of magical armour (sounds like power armour, really) with the touch of a hammer (Artificer class);
• the Soulknife "psionic rogue" subclass
• the ability to draw power from another plane to increase damage (Ranger archetype in Xanathar's Guide)

These abilities are adding a lot of magic to otherwise mundane (= not spell-casting) classes. Personally, I enjoy more character options in a system like 5E, but those are only useful in a Very-High-Magic Setting, which is closer to Earthdawn than any world we've ever played D&D in.

So, for those who know 5E and know of these new additions, what are your thoughts?

For the rest, please don't take this as another opportunity to bash 5E, it's the 5E sub-forum so here we do discuss 5E. Thanks

[tombowings]

I'm glad that people who want to play in a high magic world have a game to flock to. As a bonus, it sends me a hint as which players wouldn't fit very well at my table. Everybody is happy.

[jeffb]

I loved Earthdawn. I still love Earthdawn.

I love Glorantha.

In these cases, The fictional world is built around a high degree of magic and the rules are designed around the fiction, and it works. This goes even as far as 13th Age and Exemplars and Eidolons for D&D like systems- but they changed the baseline assumptions in those games from "traditional D&D"

However, nearly every edition of D&D proper has a problem with this because when you pile on magical power to a "non caster class" in a system that historically and clearly makes a big distinction between casters and non-casters, you end up having serious verisimilitude issues in all your previous fictional material (setting, etc) AND the rules issues too.

The other side of the coin is 4E. And of course we know how that went. Players complain - Everybody is Samey! Yet-Runequest characters are built the same way and operate off a similar set of mechanical resolution . Hero Wars/Hero Quest characters are built the same way and operate off a similar set of mechanics/resolution. Earthdawn, the same as I recall. 4E did the same exact thing. I don't recall anyone complaining about samey-ness in these other games.

Ultimately, these are *options* for 5E. So for 5E DMs who want to run a High Fantasy/High Magic game in a setting that is fictionally adapted to it and thus having that element of verisimilitude this should work out well- however it poses a real problem for players who are going to want to play a PHB class like a Champion Fighter, or Rogue (Thief). You will run into the "balance" issue (which is still a big problem in 5E, though not as drastically as 3.X or TSR D&D). As A DM, I'd likely feel the need to "beef up" those other classes which will fall way behind as the rest of the party does everything so much better.


P.S. I know that lots of us old school DMs like to say poop on class balance, it's all BS... but it's a real problem in a D&D game where the intention of balance is designed into class abilities/power (as in 3/5E) but other limiting factors (like level limits, class/race restrictions/harsh penalties for multiclassing/varying XP charts, etc) have been removed from the game. This is where the magic item treadmill started in 3.X (and an issue with A/OD&D Fighters/Thieves too- gotta have those "+X" weapons and armor at a certain point or you are dead meat).

[hamurai]

I also still love Earthdawn, we played almost daily for many years when I was a teenager and I still love the setting. It's just not a setting I'd like to play D&D in, that what I'm saying.

When I talked to other players of my group about this yesterday, they confirmed that 3.X and 4E had the same issues. Not having played these editions, I wasn't aware of it, but it seems like there's a pattern.

I guess I'll just focus on setting releases for 5E now, the class options are more than enough for my taste by now.

[jeffb]

Dec 22, 2020 0:58:30 GMT -6 hamurai said:

I also still love Earthdawn, we played almost daily for many years when I was a teenager and I still love the setting. It's just not a setting I'd like to play D&D in, that what I'm saying.

When I talked to other players of my group about this yesterday, they confirmed that 3.X and 4E had the same issues. Not having played these editions, I wasn't aware of it, but it seems like there's a pattern.

I guess I'll just focus on setting releases for 5E now, the class options are more than enough for my taste by now.

Maybe I've misunderstood. Are you saying then that you just don't like high fantasy/magic when playing D&D (5E) and you are wondering/worried about the increasing magic seeping into 5E?

[hamurai]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

It's only when playing 5E that I don't like it. I can absolutely like it when playing Earthdawn or RQ:Glorantha. 5E wasn't my favourite edition to begin with, but it was D&D and I've always found ways to find something of that old school vibe in the games. With increasing magic abilities everywhere I doubt that feeling will remain for long. Lucky for me, most of our group feel the same (especially the DM), so we can avoid most of the changes rather easily.

Speaking in Earthdawn terms, the magic level seems to be rising and that's taking away that old school feeling, for me at least. Originally, D&D to me was like a Sword & Sorcery novel (where the protagonists had both sword & sorcery on their side, depending on the class), but it's becoming more of a young adult cartoon series the more you throw in the flashy magic abilities for all classes.

[jeffb]

Dec 22, 2020 23:22:06 GMT -6 hamurai said:

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

It's only when playing 5E that I don't like it. I can absolutely like it when playing Earthdawn or RQ:Glorantha. 5E wasn't my favourite edition to begin with, but it was D&D and I've always found ways to find something of that old school vibe in the games. With increasing magic abilities everywhere I doubt that feeling will remain for long. Lucky for me, most of our group feel the same (especially the DM), so we can avoid most of the changes rather easily.

Speaking in Earthdawn terms, the magic level seems to be rising and that's taking away that old school feeling, for me at least. Originally, D&D to me was like a Sword & Sorcery novel (where the protagonists had both sword & sorcery on their side, depending on the class), but it's becoming more of a young adult cartoon series the more you throw in the flashy magic abilities for all classes.

Understood. And I agree for the most part - D&D proper (each edition really) has a certain feel for me as well. If the campaign is centered around a higher magic theme, it has to be really compelling for me fictionally (e.g. 13th Age- where that "high fantasy" has a large amount of Arduin & Glorantha influence, and the system is designed around that).