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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 2, 2020 13:07:05 GMT -6
I know the spectre was supposed to represent the Nazgul in D&D. But I want something with more hit dice. Someone had made a version of the Nazgul years ago, but I can't find that write-up. Any ideas on this?
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Post by Finarvyn on Nov 2, 2020 14:13:31 GMT -6
I will have to look for the book in my closet, but I know that for MERP there were write-ups for each of the nine nazgul. I know that JRRT didn't want to give them backgrounds because he didn't want to humanize the nazgul, which was supposed to be evil. However, Iron Crown did it anyway. They were in one of the Lords of Middle-earth books. (I think book I was mostly 1st age, II was 2nd age, III was 3rd age -- which would make me guess book III.)
My recollection is that MERP uses percentile stats with a strangeness for numbers over 100. I would have to look that up. There was also a d100 to 3d6 conversion chart, I think, to better reflect a D&D scale.
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Post by Falconer on Nov 2, 2020 15:17:26 GMT -6
LoMe1 = Immortals (Ainur+Elves) LoMe2 = Men (incl. Nazgûl) LoMe3 = Dwarves, Hobbits, Orcs, Trolls, Ents
I agree, I love the MERP writeups of the individual Nazgûl (their names, where they were from, what lands they ruled, etc.), super great for use in a RPG IMO.
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 2, 2020 16:07:50 GMT -6
Thanks. I have the MERP writeups, but I'm looking for something for OD&D or AD&D. I'll convert systems if necessary, but I want to take the lazy route first. Something generic is okay; I don't have to do a separate writeup for each one.
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 5, 2020 1:55:54 GMT -6
If I were to base the Nazgul on the D&D vampire with a few changes, would that work?
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Post by tombowings on Nov 5, 2020 2:11:08 GMT -6
I think the chainmail wraith with 8 HD would make a great Nazgul.
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Post by Falconer on Nov 5, 2020 4:53:48 GMT -6
Death Knight from FF might be worth looking at too.
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 5, 2020 17:45:50 GMT -6
I thought about the death knight, although someone on the Dragonsfoot boards said they were heavy hitters. Of course, that's appropriate for Nazgul. But I could always just raise the hit dice of a regular wraith or spectre and call it a Nazgul
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ThrorII
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Post by ThrorII on Nov 5, 2020 19:56:19 GMT -6
Cubicle 7's "Adventures in Middle-earth" is for 5e, but that makes it possible to retro it back to B/X, AD&D, or OD&D. They list the Witch-king, 3-4 specific Nazgul's, and then the remaining 4-5 unnamed generic Nazguls. That might be a good start. C7's Middle-earth is very canon-friendly.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2020 17:59:55 GMT -6
I thought about the death knight, although someone on the Dragonsfoot boards said they were heavy hitters. Of course, that's appropriate for Nazgul. But I could always just raise the hit dice of a regular wraith or spectre and call it a Nazgul They should absolutely be heavy hitters. Much easier to defeat than the Balrog but significantly tougher than any of Sauron's normal minions, including Trolls. (So, in OD&D terms, Stone Giants)
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Post by doublejig2 on Nov 12, 2020 18:32:46 GMT -6
Mustn't forget their rings of Power and magical equipment. And, then there is the Black Breath. And, are they one, three, five, nine. What about the lighting and weather. Is the opponent weakened, outnumbered and surrounded. Or just alone on a narrow country lane. Tough enemies indeed. I thought MERP did a pretty good job with this material.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Nov 12, 2020 21:24:37 GMT -6
I thought about the death knight, although someone on the Dragonsfoot boards said they were heavy hitters. Of course, that's appropriate for Nazgul. But I could always just raise the hit dice of a regular wraith or spectre and call it a Nazgul They should absolutely be heavy hitters. Much easier to defeat than the Balrog but significantly tougher than any of Sauron's normal minions, including Trolls. (So, in OD&D terms, Stone Giants)
I think that kind of depends. Their power is not really in physical combat, it's more 'weaponized' fear. They can weaken or drive back normal troops even in large numbers with their fear, but when faced directly by heroes they are not so overwhelmingly powerful.
In game terms, I'd think they have a fear effect that only works against 'normal' (non-heroic) characters - it is important when they face armies (Osgiliath and the Pelennor) but doesn't become relevant when they fight individual major characters (Weathertop, Ford of Bruinen, Legolas shooting one on a flying mount, Gandalf confronting the Witch-king, Merry and Eowyn vs the Witch-king).
So maybe as a Spectre, plus fear, but replace the level drain with the mummy's "rot" effect (to represent the Black Breath)?
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 12, 2020 22:01:21 GMT -6
Mummy rot, eh? That's a good idea, thanks. Yes, they should be heavy hitters to begin with. So raising the hit dice by two or three should work. They do have significant weaknesses as well as powers, so I have to take those into consideration.
I'd probably use ogres to represent trolls, with hill giants representing the toughest specimens and ettins representing the two-headed variety.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2020 11:04:03 GMT -6
They should absolutely be heavy hitters. Much easier to defeat than the Balrog but significantly tougher than any of Sauron's normal minions, including Trolls. (So, in OD&D terms, Stone Giants)
I think that kind of depends. Their power is not really in physical combat, it's more 'weaponized' fear. They can weaken or drive back normal troops even in large numbers with their fear, but when faced directly by heroes they are not so overwhelmingly powerful.
In game terms, I'd think they have a fear effect that only works against 'normal' (non-heroic) characters - it is important when they face armies (Osgiliath and the Pelennor) but doesn't become relevant when they fight individual major characters (Weathertop, Ford of Bruinen, Legolas shooting one on a flying mount, Gandalf confronting the Witch-king, Merry and Eowyn vs the Witch-king).
So maybe as a Spectre, plus fear, but replace the level drain with the mummy's "rot" effect (to represent the Black Breath)?
Don't forget the lasting effects of their Morgul Blades.
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 15, 2020 18:47:35 GMT -6
Here's what I'm thinking about writing up a Morgul blade. The knife's tip will break off on a successful hit roll and make its way to the victim's heart. Each day, the victim must save vs. Death Magic or lose a point of CON. Bathing the wound with Athelas will add a +2 bonus to the saving throw. If the victim's CON reaches zero, the tip has reached the victim's heart. The victim will die and rise up as a wraith the following night. The wraith will be under the control of the Nazgul who killed him.
Removing the knife tip will not only require surgery but also the casting of both Cure Serious Wounds and Remove Curse. The victim may regain his or her CON at a rate of 1 point per full day of complete bed rest. There is a 10% chance of the victim losing one point of CON permanently.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2020 17:25:25 GMT -6
Hell, surviving the surgery could even be another use for the system shock resurrection mechanics. The process for Frodo was a lot like being pulled back from death or a death-like state. He never really fully recovered or felt like himself until he went to the Undying Lands.
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 21, 2020 16:19:21 GMT -6
I was rereading the 1e Monster Manual when I noticed that several undead creatures have more hit dice in 1e than in OD&D. I may use those hit dice to represent Nazgul. Regular spectres would still use the regular OD&D writeups.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2020 18:48:51 GMT -6
The nine Nazgul are legendary, named* creatures with their own backstories, after all. In AD&D terms, they wouldn't simply be "Death Knight" but "Lord Soth" equivalents. I think power-loading their hit dice, spells and equipment is a given.
*Although I don't believe Tolkien ever settled on actual canonical names for any of them**, similar to the blanks in the lore of the two Blue Wizards. They were powerful kings before receiving their Rings, however, so they were historical figures.
**For instance, many people seem to think the Witch-King is named "Angmar" but that was the name of the kingdom he ruled. There's no list of ruler names from that kingdom that I've encountered, but knowing Tolkien it's entirely plausible I've overlooked them.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 21, 2020 20:22:55 GMT -6
They were mostly unnamed, but Tolkien did give the name Khamul for the 2nd-in-command. From here: According to the Hunt for the Ring in UT: "..it was Khamûl who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry (see p.360)" and "Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight" And MERP came up with some pretty good names for the rest of them.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Nov 21, 2020 21:05:36 GMT -6
Great summary of Nazgûl and their abilities here: tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nazgul#Powers_and_abilities- Hypnotic gaze, - Etherealness (require garments provided by Sauron to interact with the physical world), - invulnerability to normal weapons, - Weapons passing through them destroyed, - Poisonous breath, - Spread terror in mortal creatures by their mere presence, - Terrifying cry, - Many weapons including "long swords of steel and flame, daggers with venomous properties, poisonous darts and black maces of great strength" - Magic use.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 21, 2020 21:29:58 GMT -6
And weaknesses:
-Less brave in smaller numbers. Represent through a morale penalty when alone?
-Fire ("Even as [Frodo] swooned he caught, as through a swirling mist, a glimpse of Strider leaping out of the darkness with a flaming brand of wood in either hand"; not necessarily a special vulnerability)
-Special blades of Westernesse (could be magic weapons in OD&D)
-Holy names (Gandalf: "More deadly to him [than Frodo's sword] was the name of Elbereth". This could be considered equivalent to a Cleric's Turn Undead)
-Poor vision in strong daylight. Instead they "sniff". There are also statements that their power is literally diminished in daylight (perhaps a -2 to attacks?)
-"they needed garments and weapons provided by Sauron to give them form. Consequently, they could be defeated by attacks that destroyed their disguises, forcing them to return to Sauron to receive new ones" (the rushing water in FOTR being one example of this; not sure how to represent this in D&D)
The Unfinished Tales "Hunt for the Ring" would be a good place to mine for more details.
-Water. ("My father nowhere explained the Ringwraiths' fear of water. In the account just cited it is made a chief motive in Sauron's assault on Osgiliath, and it reappears in detailed notes on the movement of the Black Riders in the Shire: thus of the Rider (who was in fact Khamûl of Dol Guldur, see note 1) seen on the far side of Bucklebury Ferry just after the Hobbits had crossed (The Fellowship of the Ring I 5) it is said that "he was well aware that the Ring had crossed the river; but the river was a barrier to his sense of its movement and that the Nazgûl would not touch the "Elvish" waters of Baranduin. But it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers that lay in their path, such as the Greyflood, where there was only "a dangerous ford formed by the ruins of the bridge" (p. 277). My father did indeed note that the idea was difficult to sustain.")
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Post by tkdco2 on Nov 22, 2020 4:51:43 GMT -6
The Witch King at least would be like a Death Knight. He was more powerful than the other eight. I seem to remember a monster in Dragon Magazine called a Wraith King. I will try to find the issue.
I'm definitely going to keep the MERP names. That's how I think of the Nazgul.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2020 19:00:23 GMT -6
They were mostly unnamed, but Tolkien did give the name Khamul for the 2nd-in-command. From here: According to the Hunt for the Ring in UT: "..it was Khamûl who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry (see p.360)" and "Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight" And MERP came up with some pretty good names for the rest of them. Oh, that's right. I hadn't heard that name in like two decades but now that you mention it, I remember Khamul. Those names/titles from MERP impress me very much. They seem like the sorts of names and histories Tolkien himself would have dreamt up and fit his world seamlessly. I have a new appreciation for MERP now.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 8, 2020 14:00:34 GMT -6
The nine Nazgul are legendary, named* creatures with their own backstories, after all. In AD&D terms, they wouldn't simply be "Death Knight" but "Lord Soth" equivalents. I think power-loading their hit dice, spells and equipment is a given. *Although I don't believe Tolkien ever settled on actual canonical names for any of them**, similar to the blanks in the lore of the two Blue Wizards. They were powerful kings before receiving their Rings, however, so they were historical figures. **For instance, many people seem to think the Witch-King is named "Angmar" but that was the name of the kingdom he ruled. There's no list of ruler names from that kingdom that I've encountered, but knowing Tolkien it's entirely plausible I've overlooked them. IIRC, ICE made up a name for the Witch King: Er-Murazor the Numenorean. It's obviously not canon, but it works in a pinch.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 14, 2020 15:13:19 GMT -6
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Post by machfront on Dec 15, 2020 0:20:55 GMT -6
Interesting. I dunno. Perhaps I’m naive but I’ve found that, the lower, flatter power curve of 3LBB OD&D (even with casual clones more in spirit that exacting repros of every rule) such as my fave, WhiteBox Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game, coupled with my own view and table experience each influencing the other(s), and no one ever, even after extended play never reaching more than, say seventh to ninth level, usually lower...that the likes of spectres as is, is plenty enough to represent the likes of the Ringwraiths. 🤷♂️ I suppose it bears mentioning I figure even the likes of, say, Glamdring, to be no more than +1 weapons, +2 vs orcs (essentially...short version). (I dislike inflation. Haha,) Also, I delete spells like Fly or Fireball in such cases..so...
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 16, 2020 2:05:11 GMT -6
I may just use spectres for low-level gaming and death knights for high-level campaigns.
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Post by machfront on Dec 16, 2020 2:44:43 GMT -6
Heh. Okay... okay... I can see that. Yeah. Hahah... (Even despite my dislike of any computer gaming scaling wherein is hard for ones character to defeat the highest level of beasties because they’re all just and only goblins, and hard for your 47th level character to defeat the highest level of beasties because they’re all,,,well...Nazgul. lol)
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 17, 2020 3:29:33 GMT -6
I'd have to figure out when (if ever) the players would encounter a Nazgul. I don't have a group currently, so that's a moot point. Having said that, I'm working on a MERP to BFRPG conversion, and I'm vacillating on my design choices.
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Post by Porphyre on Dec 22, 2020 16:50:50 GMT -6
Since they were "mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old" they probably should be name-level, at least the mightier of them.
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