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Post by Zenopus on Nov 30, 2020 9:03:37 GMT -6
I.e., what (for the uninitiated) are: saving throw per stat, (dis)advantage, inspiration, and dice chain? Saving Throws in 5E are linked to the attributes STR, DEX, CON, ....; when you roll a Saving Throw, it's always an attribute saving throw, e.g. a Strength Saving Throw, a Charisma Saving Throw.... (Dis)Advantage is the mechanic that when some factors make your success chance better or worse, you roll 2d20 and count the better (for advantage) or the worse (for disadvantage) result. It's an elegant mechanic which saves the DM the time to think up a situational difficulty modifer. Inspiration is a "luck point" you get for good roleplaying. For example, you can use it to re-roll an attack roll or saving throw. The dice chain isn't from 5E, but DCC: DCC uses d3, d4, d5, d6, d7, d8, d10, d12, d14, d16, d20, d24, and d30, [...] In the dice chain, instead of modifiers, factors may step your die up or down the dice chain. For example, when you usually use a d20 to attack, a modifier might step up your die to a d24. For Saving Throws, because "Constitution Saving Throw" sounds like an ability check, I'll add that it's not a check against the ability score itself, but rather a check against a pre-determined DC (Difficulty Class) that is modified by the appropriate ability score bonus. For example, for a "Basic Poison" instead of saying "Save vs Poison", 5E says make a "DC 10 Constitution saving throw", which means beat 10 (Easy) on a d20 roll modified by your Constitution bonus. Furthermore, each class is "Proficient" in two types of Saving Throws, which means they get a level-based bonus to each roll. For example, Fighters are proficient in Str and Con saves, so at first level they would get an extra +2 towards each of those saves. This is how 5E differentiates Saving Throws by class instead of having a table like in OD&D. DC 5 = Very Easy DC 10 = Easy DC 15 = Medium DC 20 = Hard DC 25 = Very Hard DC 30 = Nearly Impossible A natural 20 does not necessarily succeed if the required score is over 20, only if the bonuses bring it over the target number.
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Post by Zenopus on Nov 30, 2020 15:49:29 GMT -6
One could rewrite the 5E saves as a table. Taking DC15 (Medium) as the base:
Level 1-4 Saves: Cleric----Str 15 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 15 Wis 13 Chr 13
Fighter--Str 13 Dex 15 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 15 Chr 15
Rogue---Str 15 Dex 13 Con 15 Int 13 Wis 15 Chr 15
Wizard---Str 15 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 13 Wis 13 Chr 15
Level 5-8 Saves: Cleric----Str 15 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 15 Wis 12 Chr 12
Fighter--Str 12 Dex 15 Con 12 Int 15 Wis 15 Chr 15
Rogue---Str 15 Dex 12 Con 15 Int 12 Wis 15 Chr 15
Wizard---Str 15 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 12 Wis 12 Chr 15
And so on adding +1 to Proficiency in 4-level blocks.
Using this table, Very Easy is +10, Easy is +5, Hard is -5, Very Hard is -10, Nearly Impossible is -15.
The big difference from OD&D is that only proficient saves improve, rather than all saves.
But 5E characters get to add their ability score bonuses and have some opportunities to improve their ability scores at certain levels, so it is possible to improve the other saves.
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 30, 2020 21:51:28 GMT -6
One could rewrite the 5E saves as a table. Taking DC15 (Medium) as the base: Level 1-4 Saves: Cleric----Str 15 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 15 Wis 13 Chr 13 Fighter--Str 13 Dex 15 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 15 Chr 15 Rogue---Str 15 Dex 13 Con 15 Int 13 Wis 15 Chr 15 Wizard---Str 15 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 13 Wis 13 Chr 15 Level 5-8 Saves: Cleric----Str 15 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 15 Wis 12 Chr 12 Fighter--Str 12 Dex 15 Con 12 Int 15 Wis 15 Chr 15 Rogue---Str 15 Dex 12 Con 15 Int 12 Wis 15 Chr 15 Wizard---Str 15 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 12 Wis 12 Chr 15 And so on adding +1 to Proficiency in 4-level blocks. Using this table, Very Easy is +10, Easy is +5, Hard is -5, Very Hard is -10, Nearly Impossible is -15. The big difference from OD&D is that only proficient saves improve, rather than all saves. But 5E characters get to add their ability score bonuses and have some opportunities to improve their ability scores at certain levels, so it is possible to improve the other saves. Love it! Because I'm such a nerd for old-school looking tables: To clarify: the Difficulty here is a modifier to the die roll. I suppose you could flip it around the other way to make it an addition to the Difficulty Class and it'd be more consistent with the rest of the game systems.
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 30, 2020 22:02:26 GMT -6
For Saving Throws, because "Constitution Saving Throw" sounds like an ability check, I'll add that it's not a check against the ability score itself, but rather a check against a pre-determined DC (Difficulty Class) that is modified by the appropriate ability score bonus. For example, for a "Basic Poison" instead of saying "Save vs Poison", 5E says make a "DC 10 Constitution saving throw", which means beat 10 (Easy) on a d20 roll modified by your Constitution bonus. This is a better, more clear, explanation of how Saves work in 5e than how the 5e Player's Handbook explains it.
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 30, 2020 22:09:40 GMT -6
I tried really, really hard to make 5e more old school. For like five years. The conclusion I ultimately came to is that you'd have to radically gut the game to the point it's not even 5e anymore and at that point why not just play AD&D or something? That's the point I kept arriving at no matter what. If you wanna run old school, there's no need to use anything other than old school rules. Something fundamental gets lost in translation otherwise. Yeah, 5e is too tightly intertwined as a cohesive design. Taking out or changing anything ends up breaking something else. Much easier to grab some of the best things from 5e and importing it into an OSR like design.
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Post by hamurai on Nov 30, 2020 22:42:18 GMT -6
One could rewrite the 5E saves as a table. Taking DC15 (Medium) as the base: [...] You also have to note, though, that you mostly don't roll against a set difficulty (medium, chellenging...), but most saves (at least in my groups) are rolled as saves vs. some kind of enemy-inflicted effect like spells or knockdown, etc. In that case, the DC is 8+(proficiency bonus)+(enemy's relevant ability modifier). For example, when a 7th-level (proficiency bonus +3) wizard with INT 18 (+4 modifier) casts a spell that allows a saving throw*, the DC is 8+3+4=15. (For the uninitiated, the proficiency bonus is a bonus based on level, starting at +2 and going up by 1 every 4 levels.) * Maybe at that point it's worth noting that in 5E you don't roll to cast, and that 3 types of spells exist: 1.) When you cast the spell, it takes effect. No dice rolls. (Example: Mage Armour) 2.) When you cast the spell, the target gets a saving throw. (Example: Slow) 3.) When you cast the spell, you roll a spell attack if you hit the target (Example: Fire Bolt) (1) are usually "alteration spells" which change the caster or the environment, but don't affect any other unwilling creatures (2) and (3) are spells affecting unwilling creatures, where (2) are usually the "alteration" spells and (3) are usually the "projectile" spells
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 1, 2020 5:56:02 GMT -6
Yeah, 5e is too tightly intertwined as a cohesive design. Taking out or changing anything ends up breaking something else. Much easier to grab some of the best things from 5e and importing it into an OSR like design. I don't really agree. All the 5E rules are designed to work together very well, it's true, but they are quite modular and it's relatively easy to swap out elements. The options given in the DMG are a case in point, any one of them or several used in combination can radically alter the feel of the game without "breaking" it. I've used all the skill system variants, and the different options for long and short rests, and they all work fine. As long as you look at each of those rules modules and recognise its limit and interaction-points with other rules, it's not that hard to change that module. I think where a lot of people went wrong in trying to make 5E "more old-school" was things like hit points and spell damage. Those seem very high compared to what we're used to, but it's just a scaling-up across the board so that you get more granularity, and thus more options for choices in what weapons or tactics you use (for example). It's big-scale changes I'm leery of with 5E, not swapping out modular systems. But, on the whole, there's nothing lost if you try a house rule and find it doesn't improve your game. I mean, how many times has that happened to us all over the decades?
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Post by waysoftheearth on Dec 1, 2020 6:01:33 GMT -6
Saving Throws in 5E are linked to the attributes STR, DEX, CON, ....; when you roll a Saving Throw, it's always an attribute saving throw, e.g. a Strength Saving Throw, a Charisma Saving Throw.... (Dis)Advantage is the mechanic that when some factors make your success chance better or worse, you roll 2d20 and count the better (for advantage) or the worse (for disadvantage) result. It's an elegant mechanic which saves the DM the time to think up a situational difficulty modifer. Inspiration is a "luck point" you get for good roleplaying. For example, you can use it to re-roll an attack roll or saving throw. The dice chain isn't from 5E, but DCC: DCC uses d3, d4, d5, d6, d7, d8, d10, d12, d14, d16, d20, d24, and d30, [...] In the dice chain, instead of modifiers, factors may step your die up or down the dice chain. For example, when you usually use a d20 to attack, a modifier might step up your die to a d24. Thanks hamurai So... a fair bit to digest, but... just to reply to the posts re: attribute saving throws first: I'm gonna go out on a limb and speculate that, for most of us, there is an arbitrary line in the sand somewhere beyond which a game design has a modern feel, and behind which a game design has a retro feel. Where that line is perhaps isn't always crystal, and maybe it differs from person to person, group to group. For me, saving throws vs specific named dangers with fixed target numbers feels retro. Saving "as a hero" is especially retro. A single, +1 to +4 adjustment to the (d20) die is okay. Multiple adjustments for this, that, and the other is starting to push it. Variable target difficulties has a modern feel to me (and I think this encourages overuse of "soft" saving throws against "easy" numbers that aren't really saving throws in the original sense at all). Saves versus ability scores also feels modern to me; these tend to make the game more about player stats than the game circumstances. They explain how the character saves which is a "new" thing, compared to retro games. Ultimately, stat-based adjustments can encourage stat-padding, the character build metagame, and reliance on great stats rather than great play. Obviously, that's a long slope, but you get the gist. The other thing to ponder is that--for me at least--specific and simple mechanics tend to feel retro, whereas sophisticated and general mechanics tend to feel modern. Saving throws vs ability scores, for all their general application, tend to be more complex (multiple stats, various target numbers, a bunch of adjustments). For simplicity, it's pretty hard to go past the elegance of S&W White Box's single save with one fixed target (albeit with a +2 class adjustment against specific things). The real trick is getting the balance just right, and that is likely going to be a personal taste thing.
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Post by tombowings on Dec 1, 2020 6:25:24 GMT -6
I really appreciate the esoteric feel of OD&D, AD&D, old RuneQuest, and DragonQuest (among others). A fantasy game should feel like a trip to another world. The rules themselves should be something to decipher and investigate, something to digest over decades. The cut and dry feel of many modern games has lost this unique aspect of older titles.
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 1, 2020 21:27:02 GMT -6
The more I played 5e the more I disliked it. I wish I wasn't talking about it on an OD&D forum. I can see where you are coming from on this. Here is my perspective: I know that my players have a high interest in 5E, so where would I rather talk about it? (1) On a forum that attracts 5E players. (2) On a forum that attracts OD&D players. For me, it's clearly #2. I figure that an OD&D forum is the perfect place to discuss 5E because the majority of the posters will prefer a similar style of play to what I like. This means that comments they make (both positive and negative) are more likely to be useful to me in my 5E campaign. IMO, OD&D is a very "DM Friendly" game system which is easy for me to run on-the-fly but has fewer options for players. 5E is the opposite and is highly "Player Friendly" because of the vast quantity of choices that the players can access. I'm constantly looking for ways to make my 5E campaign more like OD&D, and a traditional 5E forum won't offer me ideas in that direction. If I have to pick the best places to discuss 5E I'd select here and/or Dragonsfoot. Posters at both boards are more receptive to my point of view. (I should add that Comeback Inn is starting to have more 5E threads about Blackmoor. Not many yet, but growing. They are also old school enough in general to match my needs.)
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Post by hamurai on Dec 1, 2020 23:13:07 GMT -6
The other thing to ponder is that--for me at least--specific and simple mechanics tend to feel retro, whereas sophisticated and general mechanics tend to feel modern. Saving throws vs ability scores, for all their general application, tend to be more complex (multiple stats, various target numbers, a bunch of adjustments). For simplicity, it's pretty hard to go past the elegance of S&W White Box's single save with one fixed target (albeit with a +2 class adjustment against specific things). The real trick is getting the balance just right, and that is likely going to be a personal taste thing. I guess it's easy enough to get rid of the different stat saves and implement a single number. In fact, you could probably just use S&W WB's for 5E as they are, but, as you say, you'd have to have a look at game balance: Many classes or Feats grant bonuses for the one or other ST, how would they be accounted for? Would S&W's modifiers be used, too? Once again, 5E looks to me like a well-designed system with many interlocking parts. Change one and you'll have to change others, too. In the end, my conclusion (once more) is, if you'd like a game with 5E elements and old school / OD&D elements, it's probably a lot easier to use OD&D and build up from there. Tearing down 5E to be more like OD&D will leave you with a structure full of holes, some of which might only appear after you leveled up a bit.
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samvandenberg
Newly-Registered User
Playing a Blackmoor variant
Posts: 37
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Post by samvandenberg on Dec 4, 2020 6:56:46 GMT -6
The more I played 5e the more I disliked it. I wish I wasn't talking about it on an OD&D forum. I can see where you are coming from on this. Here is my perspective: I know that my players have a high interest in 5E, so where would I rather talk about it? (1) On a forum that attracts 5E players. (2) On a forum that attracts OD&D players. For me, it's clearly #2. I figure that an OD&D forum is the perfect place to discuss 5E because the majority of the posters will prefer a similar style of play to what I like. This means that comments they make (both positive and negative) are more likely to be useful to me in my 5E campaign. Sure, that makes sense. Technically, my post was before this whole thread got moved by Falconer from "General Board" to "Other Editions/5e". I know thomden just wanted to talk about kit-bashing 5e and OD&D, not 5e RAW. However. . . So true. But, this brings up an interesting question: How long can a campaign last if the Ref/DM isn't having as much fun as the players?
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Post by Finarvyn on Dec 4, 2020 7:11:56 GMT -6
But, this brings up an interesting question: How long can a campaign last if the Ref/DM isn't having as much fun as the players? For me, so far at least 3 years. My current group has been playing mostly 5E that whole time, with an occasional visit to OD&D or Amazing Adventures or some other RPGs. Mostly 5E.
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Post by jeffb on Dec 5, 2020 11:09:01 GMT -6
But, this brings up an interesting question: How long can a campaign last if the Ref/DM isn't having as much fun as the players? For me, so far at least 3 years. My current group has been playing mostly 5E that whole time, with an occasional visit to OD&D or Amazing Adventures or some other RPGs. Mostly 5E. Being with Someone is better than being with No One? Sounds like a bad marriage, Fin.
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Post by tombowings on Dec 5, 2020 11:57:29 GMT -6
For me, so far at least 3 years. My current group has been playing mostly 5E that whole time, with an occasional visit to OD&D or Amazing Adventures or some other RPGs. Mostly 5E. Being with Someone is better than being with No One? Sounds like a bad marriage, Fin. Isn't one of Fin's players his wife?
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Post by jeffb on Dec 5, 2020 19:16:50 GMT -6
Being with Someone is better than being with No One? Sounds like a bad marriage, Fin. Isn't one of Fin's players, his wife? rut roh.
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