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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 12, 2020 3:28:03 GMT -6
I'm not just talking about video games and role playing games. Board games and card games have also been set in Tolkien's world. What's the appeal? Is it because we just want to be a part of Middle-earth? Do people consider it the ultimate game setting?
People have complained it's not easy to successfully run a Middle-earth games. Since the main stories have been told and the characters have been developed, our characters are at best only secondary to the big picture. Others say it's hard to get a proper feel without making significant changes to the rules, or the game will just be D&D in Middle-earth.
Yet there are those of us who keep trying. Why?
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Post by Finarvyn on Aug 12, 2020 5:03:00 GMT -6
For me, Middle-earth is a comfortable "happy place" and has been since I was in my teens. It's one of the first fantasy settings that I read about and still one of my favorite, and I love the concept of bringing this happy place into a gaming setting. Like the real world, the setting is just so complete if a person wants to research it -- people, history, language, and so on.
That, sadly, is also the biggest drawback because you really have to work hard to approximate "true Tolkien" in a game. I have tons of Tolkien books but don't really consider myself a "scholar" of his works. I think it's a hard campaign to run because of the depth that one feels like is needed in order to do it justice.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Aug 12, 2020 7:16:16 GMT -6
Because we wanted to see how a bunch of untrained unemployed youngsters from Milton Keynes with .458" Winchester Magnums and .455" Webleys would do against a bunch of orcs, that's why!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2020 14:46:42 GMT -6
Because we wanted to see how a bunch of untrained unemployed youngsters from Milton Keynes with .458" Winchester Magnums and .455" Webleys would do against a bunch of orcs, that's why! Is that you, "Fionavar Tapestry"? Have you come back to new, unholy life?
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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 12, 2020 23:42:32 GMT -6
The thing with running a "proper" Middle-earth game is that you need people who know the lore and the setting fairly well. Casual fans want flashier magic and more orc slaying. I once ran a homebrew setting without magic or monsters, and my players hated it.
People criticize MERP as D&D in Middle-earth, but that's how LOTRO plays. So what's wrong with that.
Fin, your happy place comment hits it right on the nose. I guess that's the real appeal of the setting, as well as the reason why I keep trying to shoehorn it into my D&D games. I know it's like fitting a square peg in a round hole, but I must try anyway.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Aug 13, 2020 2:23:13 GMT -6
Somewhere between Arnor and Angmar* lies buried a brown 1979 British Leyland Mini with no roof** where we ran out of petrol. * Yeah, we got the year wrong. Hey, that space/time distortion stuff was hard for the underprivileged with City & Guilds NVQs. ** Okay, we rolled it on entry and had to hack the roof off. You try keeping a mini going straight through a wormhole. Is that you, "Fionavar Tapestry"? Have you come back to new, unholy life? Hey, I'll have to check those out, now. I'm a sucker for those kind of stories.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2020 2:55:01 GMT -6
Those books were horrible, but horribly well done as well. Like "Thomas Covenant", but without the crazy rape and self-mutilation stuff.
A goofy-but-good read, as far as I can remember.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Aug 14, 2020 12:21:13 GMT -6
Middle Earth is a low-magic setting. There's a whole five Wizards in the world, and dwarf magic is more about creating enchanted items, while elf magic does that and helps things grow. A ME D&D campaign would be Fighting Men only. A lot of protecting the villages from aggressive wild animals, occasional exploring ruins or driving off infrequent goblin raids.
At least in my opinion.
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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 14, 2020 13:44:00 GMT -6
Middle Earth is a low-magic setting. There's a whole five Wizards in the world, and dwarf magic is more about creating enchanted items, while elf magic does that and helps things grow. A ME D&D campaign would be Fighting Men only. A lot of protecting the villages from aggressive wild animals, occasional exploring ruins or driving off infrequent goblin raids. At least in my opinion. That would work if your players are okay with that. A lot of players won't like it. My players wouldn't although I'm not averse to the concept. So I'd allow some of the more subtle spells just to keep the players happy. Even MMO games like LOTRO have characters with spells or spell-like effects. While my character is a fighting man (actually a fighting elf), he can craft scrolls, potions, etc. and teleport to his house.
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Post by talysman on Aug 14, 2020 19:45:05 GMT -6
I think the reasons why people want to play a board/card/video game set in Middle Earth are different from the reasons why they want to play an RPG in Middle Earth. For most people, it's going to be about enjoying the "color", using the names and places of Middle Earth and maybe even imagining yourself in Middle Earth. The same would apply to just about any other popular media: people play Marvel Universe video games because it brings back good memories of things they've seen or even provides a little wish-fulfillment.
This can be a factor for RPGs, too, but another reason applies: to play an RPG set in a fantasy world, you need to know how the world works and what kind of things a character in that world would know, like the general lay of the land, important landmarks, maybe a few bits of history. Many popular media worlds would work for this, but for a pseudomedieval fantasy setting, nothing has the same widespread recognition that Middle Earth does. Things like Game of Thrones, Conan, The Witcher, and Elric have large fan bases, but no where near the fame and the non-fan recognition of Middle Earth. It's been around a long time.
Note that what I'm thinking of is not body of lore, but just enough surface knowledge that you can get by pretending to be a character in that world. Most people know what hobbits, elves, orcs, goblins, and ents are like in Tolkien, and most have heard of at least a few place-names from Middle Earth: The Shire, Rivendell, Mirkwood, the Lonely Mountain, Moria, Mordor, maybe even Gondor, Rohan, and Lothlorien. That's enough to get by. No need to even worry about sticking to the plot or worrying about contradictions in your campaign, because that's not why people pick Middle Earth. They just don't want to be completely in the dark about the world their characters live in.
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Post by Falconer on Aug 17, 2020 11:07:03 GMT -6
I'm not just talking about video games and role playing games. Board games and card games have also been set in Tolkien's world. What's the appeal? Is it because we just want to be a part of Middle-earth? Do people consider it the ultimate game setting? It’s well known - a nice cross-section of players of any gender or age will grok it and get excited about it, grasp the stakes, feel strongly about it, be able to make jokes and references. It’s beautiful - from the languages to the scripts to the symbols to the art. It rings true somehow - Tolkien understands mythology and fairy tale and history and theology, and it all comes together in a world which feels more real than other fictional worlds. There is an inner diversity - so many nations, races, and cultures are present, and they all seem interesting and rich, and none of them seem like caricatures. Middle-earth is a little bit of everything. If I say trees or mountains or fire, forests, bears, birds, caves, swords, cloaks, beer, wine, coffee, tobacco, horns, wolves, horses, elephants, spells, stars, light, the sea, rings, stones, dragons, towers, darkness, lakes, burrows, boats, bows, hair, wind, North, West, etc. etc., in the context of Middle-earth you will have an immediate association. If I say Rohan or Gondor or Lórien, Harad, the Shire, the Misty Mountains, Mirkwood, Mordor, Moria, or Rivendell, you are transported there, you immediately feel what you are supposed to feel about it. Cormyr or Solamnia or Vestfold or Furyondy or Karameikos, just not the same, except maybe for people who are already very big fans of those worlds. Same with Gandalf vs. Elminster, Bilbo vs. Tasslehoff, etc.
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Post by howandwhy99 on Aug 18, 2020 23:18:57 GMT -6
Narrative settings are backgrounds for already known stories, some being truly great stories, but they are tied to a completed plot; these almost always settle the conflict in the setting.
This means really awesome stuff like Dune, Star Wars, and Lord of the Rings don't work too well as Game settings. Something new and not endemic to the original work has to be added and then it's typically a single conflict for a published scenario, or one plausible fleshed out world.
For resolved conflict settings this means the players usually can only play secondary characters helping the real heroes in an ancillary way. Or they play along as the heroes in a novelization of predetermined outcomes, as in Dragonlance.
For why LOTR, I think people want the depth and feel of a setting to be like reality, which perhaps only Middle Earth has ever come closest to. Certainly people can want to enjoy being in Middle Earth specifically too, but the adventure and discovery aspects of a game need to be added to attain that original awe in my opinion.
I'm a fan of Greyhawk for gaming. When Gygax left I believe TSR specifically acted to write him out of his own works. 2e Greyhawk resolved all the conflicts and changed every situation in the setting. This wasn't good a good idea in general, but the original publication still has bucket loads. And by leaving out full explanations, the world is like a Mad Libs for the DM to complete before the players go exploring the answers via characters.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 8, 2020 13:32:56 GMT -6
If you run or have run a game set in Middle-earth, when do you set your games? Most adventures in MERP take place just after the Great Plague. AiMe sets its adventures five years after the Quest for Erebor. Which one do you prefer?
My campaign took place just around the time of the Great Plague, although I paid minimal attention to it. That's because I forgot which years it struck and missed the year in the adventure in the booklet. It officially ended around T.A. 1640, but I ran a one-shot 10 years later to officially finish the campaign. I have a new solo game set in Minas Ithil in the year T.A. 1670 revolving around the sons of the original party members.
When and where would you set your games?
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 8, 2020 14:51:45 GMT -6
I had a long-running campaign set in he 4th Age. The PCs were Call of Cthulhu characters (Green and Pleasant Land). One of them had an eccentric uncle called Dickpa (google Biggles if you want to know more) who had invited them all to a week of fishin', huntin', and shootin' at his pile in the country. On arriving they found him and his manservant missing. Mysterious diary entries were found relating to the ancient woodland behind the house. The wardrobes in the guest rooms had reproducton medieval clothing and equipment (including weapons and armour), as well as several Webley revolvers, Lee Enfield rifles, and even a few hand grenades. The novel Mythago Wood will give you a good idea of how they transitioned from 1920s England to 4th Age Rivendell.
Middle Earth is still a good common mythology for a lot of people, and it's close enough to our idea of a fantasy past to make it very easy to relate to. I like the 4th Age, because it's not so dominated by the end-of-times wars as the earlier ages.
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Post by talysman on Dec 8, 2020 20:09:44 GMT -6
I have no precise pick, but I'm thinking some time before the events of the major books (Hobbit and LotR.) So, things are as they were before the Hobbit begins, and if players felt like it, they could try to beat Bilbo to the Ring, or to Smaug, or beat Gandalf to the Necromancer's tower, and change everything, although it might be pretty hard, because I wouldn't accept arguments that the books tell the players precisely where to find any of these things.
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Post by Falconer on Dec 8, 2020 21:56:09 GMT -6
I tend to gravitate towards the pre-LotR years, like LotR is about to happen, but maybe never happens, or starts to happen but things fall out differently and end at an impasse, and we eventually progress into a Fourth Age but the Ring is still at large, Wizards and Nazgûl and Elves and everything are still around, things are changing but in an unpredictable direction. But basically the LotR-era assumptions best serve the idea of a familiar world.
In recent years, I’ve grown more nostalgic for the “Angmar” era of MERP. I want to explore that world.
First Age is my very favorite, but I don't foresee running a game there.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 8, 2020 22:04:01 GMT -6
I have no precise pick, but I'm thinking some time before the events of the major books (Hobbit and LotR.) So, things are as they were before the Hobbit begins, and if players felt like it, they could try to beat Bilbo to the Ring, or to Smaug, or beat Gandalf to the Necromancer's tower, and change everything, although it might be pretty hard, because I wouldn't accept arguments that the books tell the players precisely where to find any of these things. The players may know where they are, but the characters would have no way of knowing. I'd be quick to point that out myself.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Dec 9, 2020 12:10:58 GMT -6
In recent years, I’ve grown more nostalgic for the “Angmar” era of MERP. I want to explore that world. Angmar: Land of the Witch King is one of my favourite I.C.E. modules (my preference for 4th Age notwithstanding). Some really good stuff in there.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 9, 2020 16:20:01 GMT -6
In recent years, I’ve grown more nostalgic for the “Angmar” era of MERP. I want to explore that world. Angmar: Land of the Witch King is one of my favourite I.C.E. modules (my preference for 4th Age notwithstanding). Some really good stuff in there. I never got to play this one because I couldn't find a copy while I was playing MERP. I was able to find a copy in my game store a few years ago. Maybe I'll give it a try soon.
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Post by talysman on Dec 9, 2020 16:44:14 GMT -6
I have no precise pick, but I'm thinking some time before the events of the major books (Hobbit and LotR.) So, things are as they were before the Hobbit begins, and if players felt like it, they could try to beat Bilbo to the Ring, or to Smaug, or beat Gandalf to the Necromancer's tower, and change everything, although it might be pretty hard, because I wouldn't accept arguments that the books tell the players precisely where to find any of these things. The players may know where they are, but the characters would have no way of knowing. I'd be quick to point that out myself. Depends on what you mean by "know where they are". I don't believe there's any precise directions given in either The Hobbit or LotR. The books, being novels and not geographical references, don't give the location of anything even within the nearest couple miles. Many places are even less precisely described. Trying to follow directions in the book may get players a hundred miles away from where they think they are going. For example, the gates of Moria are in the Misty Mountains, but where, exactly? Gandalf knew, and the dwarf expedition from the Iron Mountains knew, but if a player says "I'm going to the Misty Mountains to enter Moria," how exactly are they going to do that? And if they find a dwarven gate there, how will they know it's the entrance to Moria and not someplace else? Personally, I prefer not to forbid players from using real-world knowledge, and don't make them roll to see if their character knows what they know. But asking players to say where they are going and precisely how they navigate is well within bounds, in my opinion.
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 9, 2020 20:05:35 GMT -6
People have complained it's not easy to successfully run a Middle-earth games. Since the main stories have been told and the characters have been developed, our characters are at best only secondary to the big picture. Others say it's hard to get a proper feel without making significant changes to the rules, or the game will just be D&D in Middle-earth. My A/D&D games set in Middle-earth assume only The Hobbit, with some background color sprinkled in from 1930's Quenta. That's it. I set the games a few years after Gandalf and Balin visit Bilbo on the last page of The Hobbit. "Just D&D in Middle-earth"? You betcha! Middle-earth is best with gelatinous cubes, potions of gaseous form, illusionists, gnomes, cacodemon spells, and all the rest.
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 9, 2020 23:26:45 GMT -6
"Older and fouler things than Orcs."
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Post by makofan on Dec 11, 2020 19:21:42 GMT -6
I have just started a Middle Earth campaign set in Arnor TA 1640. I spent three years preparing, and have a great group of players. I look forward to exploring the lore, but the campaign will be hard work from everybody. But most of us are Tolkien nuts who taught ourselves elvish, or something
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Post by Falconer on Dec 11, 2020 21:44:27 GMT -6
Awesome!!
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Post by machfront on Dec 15, 2020 0:45:03 GMT -6
Outside of Geoffrey, I suppose I may be in the minority here, I’ve done it a few times....and, as to the “why”, outside of the obvious and given,,,well I love it...duh!...it’s really this: There is no other pre-fabricated fantasy world/milieu that I know as well. Are there countless others, hell... even just on this tiny slice of the internet that know far more than I? YES! But do I...will I ever ever know as much about Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms? Nope. I don’t get bored nor roll my eyes nor just get tired of trying to remember a bunch of crap (usually useless junk) with ME as I do with those and others...so... So...my own, tiny, barely defined sketches of “worlds” or a place I’ve read about since I was 12 in 1986..... Or Newhon ...or Warhammers Old World...cuz...ya know...High Medieval/Renaissance with magic and super bad dark evil and monsters and the worst monsters are people, plus an easy map ya already kinda know... Hell, I don’t have barely the patience nor time now to even read and learn a 32 page campaign world and run it well. Haha!
tl;dr - cuz I know it, that’s why. Because, I don’t care about imaginationless naysayers who look at something as boundless as old school D&D and cry “you can’t get there from here”. How sad. I delete or change quite literally a handful of spells, tweak the monster lists a tiny bit....and...heck...use the maps from the books...and that’s all. (Timespan? ICEs MERP stuff had the right idea with much of it set prior to or just after The Hobbit...done, and done.) Easy. Cuz I wanna game and enjoy, not fetishize the dang thing.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jan 30, 2021 1:33:09 GMT -6
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Post by tkdco2 on Apr 16, 2021 13:27:13 GMT -6
Some folks have objections to running a tabletop rpg in Middle-earth. They do raise some good points, but here's a post answering those claims. The Brothels of Middle-earth
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Post by tkdco2 on Dec 4, 2021 17:24:07 GMT -6
A couple of ideas I've had about running a Middle-earth campaign while filing off the serial numbers. One way would be to use the names and creatures from early drafts that were later discarded. The Valar are still Gods. Varda is Bredhil; Ulmo is Ylmir; Yavanna is Palurien, and Tulkas is Poldorea. Omar/Amillo, Makar, and Measse reappear, as do Tevildo and Thu. Fingolma of Kor rules the High Elves, while Tinwelint rules the Wood Elves from Artanor. Another way is to keep the campaign local and use names from video games. Since I'm most familiar with LOTRO, I'll use that as an example. Let's say I decide to set the campaign in the North Downs (map of the area is in the link). I'll just use the names of the places invented in the game without mentioning the North Downs or Middle-earth. Locations include Trestlebridge (Breelanders), Esteldin (Dunedain), Meluinen (Elves), and Othrikar (Dwarves). Hobbits come from Oatbarton. Granted, that last one is an actual place in the books, but it's obscure enough that most players won't notice. Orcs can be from the Ongburz or Tarkrip tribes, and the Dourhands can be Duergar. You can always use the Orc tribe names in your own game world.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2021 17:34:49 GMT -6
Not gonna lie - the cinematography of Peter Jackson's trilogy would influence my decision to play in or run a ME game quite a bit. Rural New Zealand is absolutely gorgeous and cemented in my mind as Middle Earth now.
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aramis
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Post by aramis on Dec 4, 2021 19:15:29 GMT -6
I'm not just talking about video games and role playing games. Board games and card games have also been set in Tolkien's world. What's the appeal? Is it because we just want to be a part of Middle-earth? Do people consider it the ultimate game setting? People have complained it's not easy to successfully run a Middle-earth games. Since the main stories have been told and the characters have been developed, our characters are at best only secondary to the big picture. Others say it's hard to get a proper feel without making significant changes to the rules, or the game will just be D&D in Middle-earth. Yet there are those of us who keep trying. Why? I've found it easy to run Middle Earth games... but only with the right one. For me, that system is, singularly, The One Ring 1st Edition. Any other system? I've yet to see another one that mechanically links to the themes of LOTR - the power of friendship, the loss of hope, the descent into madness as hope is crushed, the need for trust and coöperation to overcome evil, in spite of inherited hatreds. THe Grind of War, and the cold war that lies between them. The Professor set out to create a mythology for the English speaking world. He did. He Succeeded. Let me rephrase that: JRRT managed to create a saga for the English, unique and grounded in his British Shire upbringing, and in his experiences in the Great War and the one which followed it. It happens to resonate well with most of the Anglophone world. My kids were aware of Tolkien before they could read. Many of my friends' kids were, too. It's as commonly known now as many of the less well known biblical stories, and most of the tales of the Brothers Grimm, and similarly superficially. It's informed so many "not quite" stories that it is a near guaranteed to resonate to some level with most of us. It is a powerful and inspiring tale. And that connection is what sells. Even if the connection is weak, or just a theme overlay. Or, like D&D, a derivative that is different. It resonates.
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