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Post by AdamDravian on Aug 11, 2020 1:41:15 GMT -6
I'm an experienced role-player that decided to delve into Chainmail, but I have no prior experience with wargaming. After reading and re-reading the Chainmail rules and even studying the Tony Bath rules that inspired it, I finally sat down with a friend to play our first game. To keep things simple, we played strictly mass combat, so no man-to-man or fantasy elements. We used the Move/Counter Move System. Here are some questions that arose during play (I looked through the forums and didn't see any of these addressed--apologies if I overlooked something).
1. Light Foot/Archers have a regular movement of 9", the same as Heavy Foot, yet crossbowmen and longbowmen have a movement of 12". That doesn't make sense to me, and I noticed in the original "Geneva Medieval Miniatures" rules (published in the April 1970 issue of Panzerfaust) that Light Infantry has a movement of 12", which is what I would expect. Does anyone know why Gary changed that to 9" in the final published version of the rules?
2. At one point, I had a unit of Heavy Horse that were about 6" away from his unit of Light Foot archers. He of course wanted to loose arrows on my Heavy Horse, but by the time it was the half-point of my move (when you check for pass-through fire), I was well within the 3" melee range, and so we ruled he couldn't do the pass-through fire, though it felt off to us. Did we do that right?
3. When a unit loses a morale check, the rules say they must "immediately react as follows". My friend got the result "Back 2 move, good order". Does that mean he immediately turns around and moves two moves away? That seems wrong, as turning about face costs 1 full movement, let alone performing two additional movements on top of that all in one turn.
4. We weren't sure how to resolve a melee that involved multiple units on each side. By the end of the game, we each had about three units of different troop types that were all engaged in a big melee. We ended up having each of our units dicing off against each of the enemy units separately and didn't remove any casualties until all units had rolled their melee dice. It felt like we were doing it wrong.
And lastly, this is more of an observation than a question. The battle ended with me having a single Heavy Horse figure and him having a unit of three Light Foot figures. We realized his three Light Foot had no possible way to kill my lone Heavy Horse, so the game was over. We both felt it was an anticlimactic and unsatisfying way to end. I think I'm going to house rule it in the future so that the outmatched underdog would have at least a slight chance to prevail.
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Post by derv on Aug 11, 2020 16:19:02 GMT -6
Welcome Adam!
1. I don't have an actual answer, only a guess. It probably had to do with how he viewed these type of troops historically. LF archers are armed with short bows- perhaps interspersed among HF levies.
2. Did he move this turn? Did he already fire this turn? Were you using morale rules? If he withstood the charge, he should have been able to let them fling before contact with immediate effect.
3. The post melee table has a typo. It should read "20-39 difference- back 1/2 move, good order".
4. Not exactly sure what you're describing. Typically you will bring your figures into base to base contact. Each unit will have figures of the same type. Resolve each units attack separately.
5. It sounds like you were using a less then ideal number of figures per unit. You should use a minimum of 8-12 figures per unit. More would be better. Generally morale checks will not allow this type of outcome. If you review the section on excess casualties you'll see that LF will check after 25% casualties. If they pass, they are eliminated once they take another 25% casualties. So, a unit of 12 LF can at most take 6 casualties before routing off the board. That being said, I always allow 1 die, 6 kills C:
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Post by derv on Aug 12, 2020 19:33:49 GMT -6
Here's a scenario for you to try AdamDravian . It's from One Hour War Games by Neil Thomas and is inspired by the Battle of Ceresole 1544. For further reading Thomas suggests Charles Omar's History of the Art of War in the 16th Century (p. 229-243). Omar is often cited as an influence on the Chainmail rules. Pitched Battle Set Up:3 ft x 3 ft table. | open | Hill | open | | open | open | open | | open | Hill | open |
3 AF units of 9 figures each, 1 HF unit of 12 figures, 2 HH units of 4 figures each (total of 155.5 points) Army 2: 3 AF units of 9 figures each, 2 LF crossbow units of 12 figures each (12" move 18" range), 1 HH unit of 4 figures (total of 147.5 points) Each side should place their forces within 6" of the tables edge. Army that eliminates the greatest number of enemy units is the victor. If you give it a go, let us know how it turned out and if you have any more questions. edit: one more thing about your question #3 above. Post Melee Morale results of 20-39 difference and 40-59 difference are not retreats or routs. They are "fall backs" or "push backs". Good Order means an orderly withdrawal where the figures would still be facing the enemy. |
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Post by Desparil on Aug 31, 2020 11:36:40 GMT -6
derv has already given solid answers, but I'll add a tidbit that I've heard as reasoning for #1 - that it's a matter of discipline rather than equipment. Basically, light foot and ordinary archers would typically be conscripts with little training, and therefore unable to march as quickly and cohesively as the semi-professional longbowmen and billmen (heavy foot) or professional crossbowmen.
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Post by AdamDravian on Aug 31, 2020 23:54:14 GMT -6
Thanks! I actually totally forgot I made this post. Sorry for the belated response. 1. I don't have an actual answer, only a guess. It probably had to do with how he viewed these type of troops historically. LF archers are armed with short bows- perhaps interspersed among HF levies. Hmm, you and Desparil make interesting points. I was ready to treat it as an error, but you've made me reconsider. 2. Did he move this turn? Did he already fire this turn? Were you using morale rules? If he withstood the charge, he should have been able to let them fling before contact with immediate effect. It's now too long ago for me to say if he had moved or already loosed arrows that turn. We were using morale rules, but I wasn't making a charge move. 3. The post melee table has a typo. It should read "20-39 difference- back 1/2 move, good order". Ah, you're right. Upon looking at the table again, that's obviously an error. Thanks for pointing that out. 4. Not exactly sure what you're describing. Typically you will bring your figures into base to base contact. Each unit will have figures of the same type. Resolve each units attack separately. Chainmail doesn't use base to base contact rules. It was written for use with Elastolin miniatures which have too small of bases for base to base contact to be practical (this has been confirmed by original player Michael Mornard). Instead, units can melee if they're within the 3" melee range. Which makes thing complicated when several units of different types are all within range of one-another, which is what happened in my first game. 5. It sounds like you were using a less then ideal number of figures per unit. You should use a minimum of 8-12 figures per unit. More would be better. Generally morale checks will not allow this type of outcome. If you review the section on excess casualties you'll see that LF will check after 25% casualties. If they pass, they are eliminated once they take another 25% casualties. So, a unit of 12 LF can at most take 6 casualties before routing off the board. That being said, I always allow 1 die, 6 kills C: I see. We were trying to keep things as simple as possible for our first game, so our armies were small. Thanks for the battle exercise. I'll try it out with my buddy next time we hang out, and I'll let you know how it goes. |
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Post by Desparil on Sept 1, 2020 2:50:51 GMT -6
4. Not exactly sure what you're describing. Typically you will bring your figures into base to base contact. Each unit will have figures of the same type. Resolve each units attack separately. Chainmail doesn't use base to base contact rules. It was written for use with Elastolin miniatures which have too small of bases for base to base contact to be practical (this has been confirmed by original player Michael Mornard). Instead, units can melee if they're within the 3" melee range. Which makes thing complicated when several units of different types are all within range of one-another, which is what happened in my first game. In any case, I would say that any given figure should only be able to attack once per melee round. So if different units are lined up in such a way that some figures are within 3" of two or more different enemy units, then you would need to declare which one they are directing their attacks at. |
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Post by derv on Sept 1, 2020 16:19:49 GMT -6
1. I don't have an actual answer, only a guess. It probably had to do with how he viewed these type of troops historically. LF archers are armed with short bows- perhaps interspersed among HF levies. Hmm, you and Desparil make interesting points. I was ready to treat it as an error, but you've made me reconsider. More importantly, you should feel free to alter movement rates if there is precedents for it in the scenario you are running. When you do alter the rules take note if it had any significant effect on the games outcomes. 4. Not exactly sure what you're describing. Typically you will bring your figures into base to base contact. Each unit will have figures of the same type. Resolve each units attack separately. Chainmail doesn't use base to base contact rules. It was written for use with Elastolin miniatures which have too small of bases for base to base contact to be practical (this has been confirmed by original player Michael Mornard). Instead, units can melee if they're within the 3" melee range. Which makes thing complicated when several units of different types are all within range of one-another, which is what happened in my first game. Regardless of what distance you use to establish melee, what I'm suggesting is a typical and practical approach that helps avoid problems. This is particularly useful since most people will be using based figures instead of Hausser/ Preiser Elastolins. If you move your figures within "melee distance" of another unit so that melee is established, go ahead and immediately put them into base to base contact. I personally do not consider 3" melee distance, particularly when using the mass combat rules. But, I don't use 3" for 1:1 either, if that matters. 3" is the distance at which units may be drawn into a melee if they are otherwise unengaged and have not used more than half their movement (and if the player wants them to). That last part in parentheses is important because it implies they are not technically in melee. |
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