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Post by tetramorph on Jul 8, 2020 17:06:18 GMT -6
Is there a compilation or has anyone compiled all of the deities of the mythos, their hierarchy and relationships to one another? What they "rule" over? What they "do"? How they are worshipped?
I've tried to study the Wikipedia articles but they are more confusing than helpful.
Thanks for any help making sense of all this.
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Post by Falconer on Jul 9, 2020 17:11:42 GMT -6
Well, both AD&D Deities & Demigods and Call of Cthulhu, 1st Edition took a stab at this, not comprehensively maybe, but in game terms. I think neither one agrees correctly with Lovecraft, but, on some level it doesn’t bother me, as I also am interested in the gaming tradition as its own thing.
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 27, 2020 0:22:53 GMT -6
Lovecraft never provided a comprehensive theogony of the Mythos entities in his various stories. The only attempt he made to pull all this together (that I know of) was in the form of a chart he provided in a 1933 letter to his correspondent James F. Morton. In this chart, HPL limited consideration to only those entities that he had created, with one exception:
First of all is Azathoth, evidently self-begotten.
Azathoth creates/spawns three beings: Nyarlathotep, the Nameless Mist, and Darkness.
The Nameless Mist creates/spawns Yog-Sothoth, while Darkness creates/spawns Shub-Niggurath.
Yog-Sothoth and Shub-Niggurath join in a more conventional union, giving rise to Nug and Yeb.
Nug creates/spawns Cthulhu, while Yeb creates/spawns (Clark Ashton Smith’s) Tsathoggua--but note that Smith gives a different ancestry for the Lord of N’kai in a letter to Robert H. Barlow.
Unaccounted for in this theogony are Lovecraft’s demigods Dagon, Ghatanothoa, Hydra, Rhan-Tegoth, and Yig.
Subsequent writers, most notably August Derleth and Lin Carter, attempted to codify and systematize the Mythos deities of Lovecraft and his many successors, but with limited success in my view. Personally, I take the above as “gospel”—or as close to gospel as we are likely to come, without further word or clarification from HPL.
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Post by tombowings on Dec 27, 2020 4:11:17 GMT -6
I think the mythos is a more powerful piece of art without a theogony spelled out. The mythos is not supposed to be understood by mankind. It is esoteric and incomprehensible. It reflects humanity's intellectual limitations and places us, as readers, in a wider universe in which our more brilliant minds and greatest technological innovations are inconsequential and impotent.
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 27, 2020 9:54:56 GMT -6
In my own sporadic attempts to incorporate Mythos elements into a campaign setting, I treat the "gospel" cited above as provisional. It's something that's taught in certain cults and temples, and most Chaotic Magic-Users will be familiar with it, but it may not be entirely accurate. At the very least, there are some heretics running around espousing the Clark Ashton Smith version of the "Genealogical Chart of the Elder Gods." I accept all the HPL deities as members of the Mythos family, along with the significant entities from Long, Smith, Howard, Derleth (excepting his version of Hastur*), Bloch, and Kuttner. From the "moderns," I only take the Ramsey Campbell deities, and leave out Brian Lumley's and Lin Carter's creations.
*Hastur is an interesting case. He is mentioned only twice by Lovecraft, both times in "The Whisperer in Darkness."
In one segment, the narrator writes:
"I found myself faced by names and terms that I had heard elsewhere in the most hideous of connections - Yuggoth, Great Cthulhu, Tsathoggua, Yog-Sothoth, R'lyeh, Nyarlathotep, Azathoth, Hastur, Yian, Leng, the Lake of Hali, Bethmoora, the Yellow Sign, L'mur-Kathulos, Bran, and the Magnum Innominandum - and was drawn back through nameless aeons and inconceivable dimensions to worlds of elder, outer entity at which the crazed author of the Necronomicon had only guessed in the vaguest way."
Note that Lovecraft mixes both entities and locations here, so Hastur could be either. Later he writes:
"There is a whole secret cult of evil men (a man of your mystical erudition will understand me when I link them with Hastur and the Yellow Sign) devoted to the purpose of tracking them down and injuring them on behalf of monstrous powers from other dimensions."
Again, Hastur could be either a being or a place; HPL does not specify.
In my view, Derleth's interpretation of Hastur in "The Return of Hastur" has no warrant in Lovecraft, or for that matter in Bierce or Chambers.
I like Hastur (don't we all?), so he would definitely be in any Mythos-tinged campaign I might run, but I would probably base him on the version presented in Geoffrey McKinney's Carcosa--and he certainly wouldn't be a half-brother of Cthulhu!
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Post by tetramorph on Dec 30, 2020 11:27:30 GMT -6
Guys, this is really helpful and, stevemitchell, you provided really what I was hoping for in my OP. tombowings, I read you and I fundamentally agree. I think I just needed a sketch, that is all. But I totally get the way it is supposed to be mind blowing and obscure. I just wanted enough of a handle on things so that if I used this pantheon for a cult of EHPs I could have some creative boundaries and starting points. I wonder, could y'all relate the specific names to the "types" and "pantheons"? You know like, which are the "elder gods," the "old ones," the -- whatever . . . And do they have a theogonical order of development (loosely and insane-drivingly)? Thanks for the help on this one.
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 30, 2020 12:11:59 GMT -6
Coincidentally enough, I am currently reading Eccentric, Impractical Devils: The Letters of August Derleth and Clark Ashton Smith, and have reached the correspondence for the year 1937—Lovecraft has died, and Derleth is hoping to put together a memorial collection of his stories (this will eventually become The Outsider and Others in 1939, the first title from Arkham House). Derleth and Smith exchange several letters on the nature of HPL’s synthetic mythology, with Derleth trying to persuade a skeptical Smith that a good vs. evil, Elder Gods vs. Old Ones schema is implicit in HPL’s stories.
In my view, Derleth is way off base in this assertion. The Elder Gods are purely Derleth’s invention—they first appear, in the guise of the Star Warriors, in the story “Lair of the Star Spawn” (Weird Tales, August 1932, co-written with Mark Schorer); Derleth then expands upon the concept of the Elder Gods in “The Return of Hastur” (Weird Tales, March 1939) and continues to push the Elder Gods as the foes of the Old Ones in most of his subsequent Cthulhu Mythos stories.
So a campaign that wants to adhere to both the letter and spirit of Lovecraft would simply omit the Elder Gods. Who does that leave to oppose Cthulhu and his malign brethren and cousins? Well, basically no one. In a true Lovecraftian game, there would be no Lawful Clerics (with the possible exception of Clerics of Nodens, depending on how you choose to interpret his appearance in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath)—only Chaotic Clerics. Well, I guess you could toss in Lawful Clerics of Yhoundeh, the Elk Goddess of Hyperborea, since she was opposed to Tsathoggua.
As for the Old Ones: HPL was not entirely consistent in his terminology or concepts throughout his stories (coming up with three separate locations for the Plateau of Leng, for example), so he referred to Ancient Ones, Old Ones, Great Old Ones, Other Gods, and Outer Gods at varies times—all of which, to me, mean the same thing: the Cthulhu Gang. (But note that the Call of Cthulhu RPG tends to be more specific in its categorization of the primal entities.)
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Post by tetramorph on Dec 30, 2020 12:23:09 GMT -6
stevemitchell, cool. I think I've got to have at least some kind of distinction between the "Outer Gods" and the "Ancient Ones" -- if for not other reason than that they just sound freakin' cool. I suppose I could use the "Elder Gods" as a pejorative term from the Chthulu gang for the "false" gods of those religions who insanely believe that there are good gods. This is all from the Chthulu POV, of course. Again, thanks for this. It does help.
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 30, 2020 12:25:19 GMT -6
Incidentally, for a truly outstanding resource for using the Cthulhu Mythos within the context of a fantasy RPG campaign, you should check out Dan Proctor's REALMS OF CRAWLING CHAOS from Goblinoid Games. The game stats are given for Labyrinth Lord, which essentially equates to Moldvay Basic, but they can be easily adapted for most any OSR system. Dan focuses primarily on Lovecraft's creations, but there are a few stragglers from other authors as well.
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Post by tombowings on Dec 30, 2020 13:43:36 GMT -6
Incidentally, for a truly outstanding resource for using the Cthulhu Mythos within the context of a fantasy RPG campaign, you should check out Dan Proctor's REALMS OF CRAWLING CHAOS from Goblinoid Games. The game stats are given for Labyrinth Lord, which essentially equates to Molday Basic, but they can be easily adapted for most any OSR system. Dan focuses primarily on Lovecraft's creations, but there are a few stragglers from other authors as well. It also has a nice set of rules for creating weird magic items, if I remember correctly.
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 30, 2020 14:34:21 GMT -6
You do remember correctly! The artifact creation table is one of my favorite parts of the book. Who wants a Bag of Holding or Gauntlets of Giant Strength when you can have the Amphora of the Unspeakable Betrothal, the Telescope of Tond, or the Dagger of the Twin Blasphemies instead?
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 30, 2020 16:39:38 GMT -6
For those who have not seen Realms of Crawling Chaos, Appendix 2, Random Artifacts works like this:
First you roll 1d100 to determine what kind of magical effect or power the random artifact has.
Then you roll 1d100 to determine the shape or type of the artifact.
And finally you roll 1d100 to determine a strange characteristic of the artifact.
Putting all this together, and with appropriate customizing for your campaign, you might get something like this:
The Dagger of the Twin Blasphemies:
This dagger is a flint knife invested with the blood, anger, passions, and thunder of the tenebrous mages who created it in long-vanished eons. The blade whispers the darkest secrets of any sentient being offered up in sacrifice to Nug and Yeb, the Twin Blasphemies.
Only Chaotic Magic-Users may wield the infernal power of this dagger. Anyone else attempting to hold or touch the dagger will suffer 1d6 points in damage, in addition to possibly incurring the malign displeasure of Nug and Yeb.
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 30, 2020 21:10:51 GMT -6
The Ring of the Daemon-Sultan:
A massive onyx ring inscribed with Aklo runes that reveal the frightful other name of Azathoth, the Daemon-Sultan. The ring radiates incredibly evil vibrations, detectable by anyone nearby, without any recourse to magic.
You can carry it (preferably sealed in a box or bottle or similar container) without adverse effect, other than the occasional nightmare or shrieking fit; but if you try to put it on, you will be instantly teleported to the ultra-cosmic Court of Azathoth.
Here the Daemon-Sultan blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity, and gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.
And here you must inscribe your name in blood in the book that is kept by the Daemon-Sultan’s throne. Immediately advance to the next level, and gain 1 point in every Ability Score! But know that you are now utterly d**ned beyond any possibility of redemption.
Chaotic Magic-Users also gain their choice of any three Scrolls from any spell list they know.
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 30, 2020 21:15:10 GMT -6
The Star of Xoth:
This device is a large electrum coin, displaying the profile of King Hwango of Vhoorl* on the obverse, and a curiously rendered star with eleven rays on the reverse. The surface of the coin has been altered in some way so that it is now covered with several very small hooks, which can be painful if the coin is not held carefully.
The Star of Xoth produces a beam of cosmic radiation that inflicts 4d6 points of damage at a range of 60 feet. The user must roll to hit; if hit, the target may attempt to Save vs. Magic to reduce damage by half.
The Star of Xoth may be used in this fashion 23 times before it loses its potency.
The user should note that this artifact is highly sought by the malign followers of Cthulhu, Dagon, Ghatanothoa, and Hydra.
*King Hwango seized the throne of Vhoorl during the general confusion of the Third Typhonian Crusade; he later perished when a horde of ravenous bat-winged horrors descended upon the city. Coins from his relatively brief reign are quite rare, and might fetch high prices from numismatists.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Dec 31, 2020 1:41:34 GMT -6
In my view, Derleth is way off base in this assertion. The Elder Gods are purely Derleth’s invention—they first appear, in the guise of the Star Warriors, in the story “Lair of the Star Spawn” (Weird Tales, August 1932, co-written with Mark Schorer); Derleth then expands upon the concept of the Elder Gods in “The Return of Hastur” (Weird Tales, March 1939) and continues to push the Elder Gods as the foes of the Old Ones in most of his subsequent Cthulhu Mythos stories. In general, I agree - with however one caveat: Lovecraft used the same names in stories with very different implicit "cosmologies". In the ones that are narrowly-defined Cthulhu Mythos, you are entirely correct.
However, the "Dream Cycle" stories do include more "comprehensible, human-like" gods, and in particular "Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath" does use Nodens as opposed to Nyarlathotep in a way which is IMO not entirely foreign to the "Elder Gods" concept.
However, I still think Derleth misinterpreted this -- Nodens is I believe intended to be one of the "gods of Earth" ultimately a product of human dreams and lacking the cosmic scope of the "Other Gods". (I am not sure Derleth knew that Nodens was a historical Celtic or Romanized-Celtic(?) deity rather than an invention of Lovecraft's.)
However... if you expand outside Lovecraft alone, things get a bit murkier. REH's Conan clearly exists in a world with the Cthulhu Mythos, but "Phoenix on the Sword" really looks like a fairly classic good vs. evil model, with Epemitreus the Sage as effectively a saint in opposition to Thoth-Amon's summoned demon. (Especially as it was the first Conan story, so the original readers would not have been influenced by the more 'Lovecraftian' elements in the other Conan stories.)
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Post by cometaryorbit on Dec 31, 2020 1:56:19 GMT -6
IMO, even if we stick to the specifically Lovecraft material, Lovecraft used two or three very distinct models - but reused the same names. (E.g. Leng and Kadath in the Cold Waste can be in the Dreamlands in "Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath" but in Antarctica in "At the Mountains of Madness")
In the 'Dream Cycle' the "gods of Earth" are gods from actual human belief and mythology, e.g. Neptune and Nodens, and exist in the Dreamlands - presumably products of human dreams. They are comprehensible to humans, though not necessarily well-disposed, and some Dreamlands humans have divine ancestry. The "Other Gods" are apparently mostly mindless, except for Nyarlathotep, "their soul and messenger". Azathoth is apparently the greatest "Other God" though mindless.
(There are also some early stories which use the same names but don't seem on their own evidence to be set in the Dreamlands, only later "brought in" by being referenced in "Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath" - "Polaris" clearly is, and "The Doom that Came to Sarnath" seems to be, set on prehistoric Earth, not the Dreamlands.)
The later model has the term Old Ones or Great Old Ones being used for basically two groups of beings - one kind are incredibly ancient aliens, e.g. the Antarctic crinoid "Old Ones" or Cthulhu and his kin, who have abilities that may be beyond our science but are ultimately physical living beings; the other kind are more mysterious entities like Yog-Sothoth, possibly roughly equivalent to the "Other Gods". (It's not really clear what Nyarlathotep and Azathoth exactly are in this model -- presumably the latter, though Nyarlathotep has physical forms...)
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 31, 2020 10:18:34 GMT -6
All good points, cometaryorbit. And of course, any GM is free to use any mix or approach to the Mythos that works for his or her campaign. It's much more important to have fun with the GAME than to insist on some rigid model of Lovecraftian purity.
In this light, I'm reminded of Dr. Holmes' campaign world for his version of Basic D&D, which featured Cthulhu, Jesus, and Odin all as operative deities. Imagine the theological debates when Clerics from those respective faiths found themselves together!
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 31, 2020 17:24:06 GMT -6
I'm reminded of Dr. Holmes' campaign world for his version of Basic D&D, which featured Cthulhu, Jesus, and Odin all as operative deities. I would like to make my plug for reading and being inspired by Lovecraft's four favorite authors: Algernon Blackwood Lord Dunsany M. R. James Arthur Machen Right now I'm re-reading my favorite of Blackwood's stories, "The Wendigo". Great Stuff!
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Post by stevemitchell on Dec 31, 2020 20:42:28 GMT -6
Lovecraft thought "The Willows" was Blackwood's best story, but I have always preferred "The Wendigo" myself.
But I like Machen even more than Blackwood!
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Post by geoffrey on Dec 31, 2020 23:00:30 GMT -6
Lovecraft thought "The Willows" was Blackwood's best story, but I have always preferred "The Wendigo" myself. But I like Machen even more than Blackwood! Agreed both times! I like "The Wendigo" better than "The Willows", and I like Machen's "The White People" more than either.
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Post by tetramorph on Jan 1, 2021 17:22:47 GMT -6
you should check out Dan Proctor's REALMS OF CRAWLING CHAOS from Goblinoid Games. Okay, I just picked this up and I have been reading through it. I usually hate most game supplements. This one is great. This may be one of the best supplements I've look at in years. I think it is quickly movin up there, for me, with Raggi's Random Esoteric Monster Generator and Goram's Magic Sword booklet. Thanks so much for pointing me in this direction. Diving down the rabbit hole! Fight on!
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Post by stevemitchell on Jan 1, 2021 21:04:18 GMT -6
I'm glad that you are enjoying it. It's one of my two top favorite game supplements, along with Geoffrey McKinney's sanity-blasting CARCOSA.
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