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Post by tdenmark on May 22, 2020 9:11:11 GMT -6
Most of my old characters died as nameless adventurers. Social class really isn’t a concern in my current games. The nvironment is kind of like the old west. I can see how social class, both actual and perceived, would be relevant in a medieval setting. Or a setting like Tekumel or Barsoom. It would be a factor in getting certain types of information, from whom, and under what conditions. But there are so many variables. It is hard to imagine a setting where social class is non existent. As soon as you have any form of society or government it exists. Even if you were to run a primordial caveman setting there are chieftains. The old west had governors and sheriffs, the natives had chieftains and slaves. The thing is it is much more fluid than something like Intelligence or Strength. You can gain or lose social status much more readily. |
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Post by tdenmark on May 22, 2020 9:12:50 GMT -6
I like what you're doing here, but I like to point out that the hidden Social Ability is hidden in plain sight in the class titles as one levels up. I always interpreted "class" as "social class", which is why a high level Cleric is a Bishop, arguably a very wealthy and influential person. It also explains why a Dwarf, Hobbit or Elf can never become a Lord. They're second-class citizens in the implied D&D setting. Not exactly slaves or indentured servants but unable to attain the same ranks and privileges as Humans. There are some Humans, NPCs mostly, who are simply born with more...mana, xp or whatever you want to call it, but those who start as Adventurers start at the bottom social strata, like in the more modern literary traditions. Good point! And welcome to the forum. Your class could have an effect, so each 2 or 3 levels you could gain +1 to your Social Status. There would be certain perks associated with them, advantages and disadvantages to each tier. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 12:06:23 GMT -6
You could go that route, too, for sure. Have you done much PC gaming? The game Daggerfall came out in the mid nineties. It's jokingly referred to by many as "fantasy medieval England simulator". It has several dozen skills you can customize your character with. The interesting thing is that "Streetwise" works well on working class people and peasants, but "Etiquette" works better on knights, nobles, powerful wizards and the likes. Perhaps in a D&D setting, the higher you climb the social ladder, the more your reaction rolls shift from the common folk to the upper echelon, perhaps with the exception of folk heroes and robin hood types.
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Post by dicebro on May 22, 2020 15:33:55 GMT -6
Most of my old characters died as nameless adventurers. Social class really isn’t a concern in my current games. The nvironment is kind of like the old west. I can see how social class, both actual and perceived, would be relevant in a medieval setting. Or a setting like Tekumel or Barsoom. It would be a factor in getting certain types of information, from whom, and under what conditions. But there are so many variables. It is hard to imagine a setting where social class is non existent. As soon as you have any form of society or government it exists. Even if you were to run a primordial caveman setting there are chieftains. The old west had governors and sheriffs, the natives had chieftains and slaves. The thing is it is much more fluid than something like Intelligence or Strength. You can gain or lose social status much more readily. I suppose there is a social class structure that is implied in my game, as part of the background. But There aren’t any mechanics for it and therefore nobody in my game really cares. |
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Post by dicebro on May 23, 2020 6:22:50 GMT -6
Question: under what situations, where the dice are consulted, does a player invoke his social class in order to get a +1 bonus? I can’t see it used in physically demanding situations, like combat.
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Post by Piper on May 23, 2020 8:31:11 GMT -6
Question: under what situations, where the dice are consulted, does a player invoke his social class in order to get a +1 bonus? I can’t see it used in physically demanding situations, like combat. A peasant heard something about a treasure. He's too weak and too afraid to go get it, but he doesn't want to tell you more because you're bloody high-born. Lady Mondegreene has a clue as to the whereabouts of Anapurna, the +5 Holy Avenger said to belong to Sir Lochinvar himself. But, gutter trash like you aren't worthy of such a sword so why even tell you about it? |
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Post by tdenmark on May 23, 2020 13:02:47 GMT -6
A peasant heard something about a treasure. He's too weak and too afraid to go get it, but he doesn't want to tell you more because you're bloody high-born. Lady Mondegreene has a clue as to the whereabouts of Anapurna, the +5 Holy Avenger said to belong to Sir Lochinvar himself. But, gutter trash like you aren't worthy of such a sword so why even tell you about it? Nailed it. Really, I think it can be quite useful in many situations. |
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Post by dicebro on May 23, 2020 14:45:19 GMT -6
Yes, okay. Talking with peasants and nobles might get you info if you are using the dice to roll play that out. But Is this much different than a charisma bonus? Any other situations?
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Post by dicebro on May 23, 2020 14:51:30 GMT -6
Also, if nobles and peasants hate each other so much, then why would they adventure together? I’m assuming everyone in the Party makes a separate roll for social class.
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Post by dicebro on May 23, 2020 14:57:42 GMT -6
And how would an npc be able to tell at a glance, what the social class of a pc is? How does one look like a noble? I know I’m asking a lot of questions. But this is worthwhile to think about. Please don’t take offense.
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Post by Piper on May 23, 2020 18:00:06 GMT -6
Yes, okay. Talking with peasants and nobles might get you info if you are using the dice to roll play that out. But Is this much different than a charisma bonus? Any other situations? Die rolls can prevent referee bias from seeping into role-playing scenarios. Plus, the referee could add positive or negative modifiers based upon the player's role-playing attempts. Of course, your basic question remains. And I would likely use a reaction roll modified up or down by Social Status (SS) rather than base the roll entirely off SS. Just spit-balling, here. I tend to just make ad hoc rulings in such cases rather than make a hard-n-fast ruling (unless a situation arises repeatedly). |
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Post by Piper on May 23, 2020 18:03:47 GMT -6
And how would an npc be able to tell at a glance, what the social class of a pc is? How does one look like a noble? I know I’m asking a lot of questions. But this is worthwhile to think about. Please don’t take offense. The same way you might size up the relative social standing of folks you randomly encounter throughout the day. Might you be fooled (either by intent or simply happenstance)? Sure, that makes for some interesting RPG situations. |
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Post by dicebro on May 23, 2020 18:41:54 GMT -6
Yes, okay. Talking with peasants and nobles might get you info if you are using the dice to roll play that out. But Is this much different than a charisma bonus? Any other situations? Die rolls can prevent referee bias from seeping into role-playing scenarios. Plus, the referee could add positive or negative modifiers based upon the player's role-playing attempts. Of course, your basic question remains. And I would likely use a reaction roll modified up or down by Social Status (SS) rather than base the roll entirely off SS. Just spit-balling, here. I tend to just make ad hoc rulings in such cases rather than make a hard-n-fast ruling (unless a situation arises repeatedly). Social class doesn’t seem to have the qualities of an ability score. As described in this discussion so far, it is something that factors into social situations in an arbitrary way. Nothing against that but I’m not sold on its necessity as a 7th ability in od&d. It’s kind of a superfluous concept. That is I can achieve the same result without creating a whole new “ability”. I.e. two players just talk out the social encounter and/or roll dice and factor in the background of the characters when it’s time to gain or not gain the desired info. Noble meets peasant and the dm decides there is a 1 in 6 chance the noble will provide info re: the location of the +5 holy avenger. |
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Post by Piper on May 23, 2020 18:48:20 GMT -6
Also, if nobles and peasants hate each other so much, then why would they adventure together? I’m assuming everyone in the Party makes a separate roll for social class. I'll give my opinion on this. There's a marked difference between social/racial interactions in society at large and party dynamics. For example, take the relatively common animosity between the elves and dwarves. If I had such a dynamic in my milieu, I wouldn't expect individual PC/NPC interactions within the party to follow this pattern. In point of fact? I'd rather expect them to bond in a spirit of cooperation. Same for any social standings amongst them. |
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Post by dicebro on May 23, 2020 19:40:53 GMT -6
Social class doesn’t seem to have the qualities of an ability score. As described in this discussion so far, it is something that factors into social situations in an arbitrary way. Nothing against that but I’m not sold on its necessity as a 7th ability in od&d. It’s kind of a superfluous concept. That is I can achieve the same result without creating a whole new “ability”. I.e. two players just talk out the social encounter and/or roll dice and factor in the background of the characters when it’s time to gain or not gain the desired info. Noble meets peasant and the dm decides there is a 1 in 6 chance the noble will provide info re: the location of the +5 holy avenger. Well, sure; this is a perfectly valid approach as well. My basic stance? There's no right or wrong way to approach the game. Some referees tend to downplay social interactions of any sort ( you get town, resupply, and now you're back at the entrance to the underground) while others go almost the full Braunstein. The former, of course, would have little need for SS-based interactions. I hope this helps, but if it doesn't answer your basic question LMK and I'll explore it further. Oh I completely agree with what you’re sayin. I am the kind of ref that would rather simplify the game mechanics instead of complicating them. Social class as an ability score intrigues me. Just trying to think of ways my players would use it against me if I tried to use it. You know, Devils advocacy. |
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 18, 2020 3:58:10 GMT -6
Reading through all the discussions here carefully, and doing no small amount of research on medieval feudal society I developed Social Status into an OSR game mechanic. Available on Drive Thru here: www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336444/OSR-Social-Status-SystemAnd for those who participated in this discussion here is a free copy, available for a very short time. After that you'll have to chip in a buck on Drive Thru - well worth it as it includes a character sheet and was no small amount of work. And if you're a fan of the Warriors of the Red Planet roleplaying game this supplement fills out the Social Status score in that game quite nicely. Which was more than a small part of the motivation for making this. Update: free version is up for a few more hours. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 18:39:08 GMT -6
Good stuff!
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Post by tdenmark on Nov 18, 2020 20:53:20 GMT -6
Question: under what situations, where the dice are consulted, does a player invoke his social class in order to get a +1 bonus? I can’t see it used in physically demanding situations, like combat. In sumo wrestling sometimes a fight ends before it even starts. During the initial stare down the reputation of a sumo can cause the other wrestler to concede. I mean if we are using Social Status as a general mix of class, reputation, and possibly intimidation. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 23:36:31 GMT -6
I like your eight social classes with example trades and professions. In my book Dice or Die, I utilize upper class, middle class, lower class, itinerant underclass, and criminals. |
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Post by dicebro on Nov 19, 2020 4:12:29 GMT -6
Question: under what situations, where the dice are consulted, does a player invoke his social class in order to get a +1 bonus? I can’t see it used in physically demanding situations, like combat. In sumo wrestling sometimes a fight ends before it even starts. During the initial stare down the reputation of a sumo can cause the other wrestler to concede. I mean if we are using Social Status as a general mix of class, reputation, and possibly intimidation. I Learned something new here. |
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