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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 17, 2020 20:06:38 GMT -6
So my players want a pirate adventure, so I figured I'd crack open the "Secrets of Saltmarsh" hardback. The problem is that I'm a lazy slacker and I hate the notion of having to read the whole thing. (Whine!) So I have a thought: If you played the old AD&D modules or the 5E "SoS" hardback, you probably have a big-picture view of the whole thing. Any wisdom you might share would be appreciated. Anything that might help me work my way through a short campaign with less than 100% effort.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 17, 2020 21:02:51 GMT -6
The good thing about the 5e version is the town is detailed/written up already.
Frankly, I think from a Greyhawk lore/cannon perspective the 5e book is a complete turnoff, they obviously either don't care or are just ignorant of GH lore. I'm not usually all that much into Canon, but the book rubs me the wrong way. So my suggestion is stick to the original.
I generally run Saltmarsh as a introduction to the Slavers plot and tweak the details of mansion's inhabitants as I never cared for U2/U3 at all.
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Post by hamurai on Apr 17, 2020 23:37:50 GMT -6
The 5E book wasn't meant as a Greyhawk Guidebook, It's about Saltmarsh. The origin in Greyhawk are certainly mentioned but it's meant as a collection of "sea adventures" you can run in any setting. There are side bars and boxes with info on how to play several elements in Eberron or the Forgotten Realms, for example.
In that respect, from what little I've read so far, I like it. I don't know the original adventures for comparison.
I've only read one adventure so far (was meant as a one-shot which got canceled because of the Corona situation), but I thought it was well enough presented. I haven't read any other 5E modules though, so I can't compare if it's better or worse than the rest of them.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 18, 2020 4:19:41 GMT -6
So my suggestion is stick to the original. I typically prefer original modules to converted, but the problem is that my group wants me to run something 5E. Taking the original and converting would seem like a lot of work, since I also have the 5E hardback where they have already done the conversion for me. I've only read one adventure so far (was meant as a one-shot which got canceled because of the Corona situation), but I thought it was well enough presented. I haven't read any other 5E modules though, so I can't compare if it's better or worse than the rest of them. Would that be the Haunted House one? I skimmed through it and it looked like a pretty good starting point, although not very aquatic and/or pirate-like.
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Post by hamurai on Apr 18, 2020 5:46:24 GMT -6
Aye, the Haunted House. It's a good starting point, I agree. I wasn't sure how many of my would-be players were familiar with D&D or role-playing at all, so that seemed like a nice introductory adventure.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 18, 2020 7:21:04 GMT -6
The 5E book wasn't meant as a Greyhawk Guidebook, It's about Saltmarsh. m. This is absolutely true, but the book is very much about a town in the world of GH, and talks quite a bit things that are uniquely Greyhawk Keoland (where Saltmarsh is located) and it's King. The Scarlet Brotherhood. The Sea Princes The Greyhawk Wars Greyahwk Deities like Obad-Hai Many major geographical areas (hool marshes for example) As an example of bad- we have this gem We have a Tiefling running around town. Wait, what? Hard stop. A Tiefling running around Saltmarsh? In a setting that fought a horrific major war against an Evil demigod and his legions of demons. Demons which another major NPC of the setting had banished through the use of a major artifact. This drastically reduced the power of the evil demi god's hold in a large chunk of the setting Which allowed the good nations of the setting to re-take and re-settle areas. Millions of innocents died in just this part of entire world conflict and these nations pledged eternal war on the evil demigod. Keoland (where Saltmarsh is located), a good nation was allied against that Demigod through it's pact with other nations. And fought it's own battles in the war. This Tiefling is in Saltmarsh, selling (cursed) magic items and in turn buying FISH for the Demigod. FISH To send back to the Demigod's nation. Even if we totally ignore the fact that the evil demigod's nation is 1000s of miles away and not easily and directly reached by land or waterway.... Oh yeah, we'll also have to ignore that the evil demi god's capital lies upon the 2nd largest body of freshwater on the continent.. Oh, we will also have to ignore that the evil demigod's northern border is a vast ocean... So ignoring all those irrelevant facts... How would a Tiefling, especially one who is depicted as very demonic, manage to get all that fish back and forth navigating the waterways through 1000s of miles through the good nations that fought against her master without getting her flipping head chopped off by any number of people who have pledged to destroy that demigod and all involved? Crap design work. It's the same type of idiocy that placed a Tiefling in Hommlett hanging around in the open and up to no good in the 4E conversion. WTF. Yes it's just a stupid game about make believe elves and faeries. But at least have some respect for verisimilitude of the creator's own god bless-ed setting. It's as bad as Disney Star Wars. I can't tell if WOTC is stupid, lazy, ignorant or all three combined when it comes to campaign settings. Finarvyn I get it Fin. If they want 5E... I think the rest of the book has a lot to offer, especially all the random tables and whatnot in the back. But they did a butcher job on the whole business of Saltmarsh, and the GH lore they chose to utilize (and #$%& up.) I'd recommend Classic Modules' Today on DM's Guild if you don't have the 5E book yet. They do good mechanical conversion work.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 18, 2020 8:53:23 GMT -6
jeffb, I guess I'm not as familiar with Greyhawk so a lot of those complaints don't bother me much. I'm more interested in a decent adventure, since I tend to adjust a lot of the background to go with whatever campaign I'm running (in this case, Blackmoor) and I just have to find a way to shoehorn the adventure into the storyline I'm developing.
I can see where a Greyhawk scholar would be annoyed by WotC's attempt to stick a Greyhawk adventure into the Forgotten Realms. I wish they would just come up with an actual Greyhawk book and then they could rework the old Greyhawk adventures to fit with that.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 18, 2020 9:07:09 GMT -6
jeffb, I guess I'm not as familiar with Greyhawk so a lot of those complaints don't bother me much. I'm more interested in a decent adventure, since I tend to adjust a lot of the background to go with whatever campaign I'm running (in this case, Blackmoor) and I just have to find a way to shoehorn the adventure into the storyline I'm developing. I can see where a Greyhawk scholar would be annoyed by WotC's attempt to stick a Greyhawk adventure into the Forgotten Realms. I wish they would just come up with an actual Greyhawk book and then they could rework the old Greyhawk adventures to fit with that. Understood. Its no different than PJ hacking up the Hobbit or Disney SW. Some don't care, for some it ruins everything great about the originals. That said, I no reason to shell out the money unless you want to use a big chunk of the other adventures, rules bits, etc in the 5e book. Classic Modules Today has inexpensive mechanical conversions of old adventures to 5e on the DMs Guild. They have them for the U series. So if you have the original modules...
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Post by jeffb on Apr 18, 2020 9:17:55 GMT -6
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Post by Zenopus on Apr 18, 2020 11:18:29 GMT -6
In a setting that fought a horrific major war against an Evil demigod and his legions of demons. Demons which another major NPC of the setting had banished through the use of a major artifact. This drastically reduced the power of the evil demi god's hold in a large chunk of the setting Which allowed the good nations of the setting to re-take and re-settle areas. Millions of innocents died in just this part of entire world conflict and these nations pledged eternal war on the evil demigod. Keoland (where Saltmarsh is located), a good nation was allied against that Demigod through it's pact with other nations. And fought it's own battles in the war. Are you talking about the events of the Greyhawk Wars? I ask because I'm not that familiar with those events. But if so, what I've read is that Ghosts of Saltmarsh is set prior to those events. It's set in the classic Greyhawk setting - the same time period as the original U1-U3 modules. See www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?p=246932#p246932: Furthermore, in the Greyhawk Folio (1980), while the Land of Iuz is generally feared and warring with neighbors (with humanoids rather than demons), it is acceptable enough to send trading groups to the Free City of Dyvers: "an important trading center and busy port, with lake and river traffic from as far away as Perrenland, Bissel, Nyrond, Umst, the Pale, Tenh, and even occasional missions from Iuz".
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Post by jeffb on Apr 18, 2020 12:00:55 GMT -6
In a setting that fought a horrific major war against an Evil demigod and his legions of demons. Demons which another major NPC of the setting had banished through the use of a major artifact. This drastically reduced the power of the evil demi god's hold in a large chunk of the setting Which allowed the good nations of the setting to re-take and re-settle areas. Millions of innocents died in just this part of entire world conflict and these nations pledged eternal war on the evil demigod. Keoland (where Saltmarsh is located), a good nation was allied against that Demigod through it's pact with other nations. And fought it's own battles in the war. Are you talking about the events of the Greyhawk Wars? I ask because I'm not that familiar with those events. But if so, what I've read is that Ghosts of Saltmarsh is set prior to those events. It's set in the classic Greyhawk setting - the same time period as the original U1-U3 modules. See www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?p=246932#p246932: Furthermore, in the Greyhawk Folio (1980), while the Land of Iuz is generally feared and warring with neighbors (with humanoids rather than demons), it is acceptable enough to send trading groups to the Free City of Dyvers: "an important trading center and busy port, with lake and river traffic from as far away as Perrenland, Bissel, Nyrond, Umst, the Pale, Tenh, and even occasional missions from Iuz". I am. Not sure where the quote comes from, but that is a very "generous view" by whomever suggested it is pre-GH Wars and trying to explain all that has come before, away. Dyvers is also not thousands of miles away from Iuz like Saltmarsh is. It is a hop skip and jump from the City of GH (which is a neutral free state as well). In addition, there were no such thing as Tieflings prior (i.e. pre wars era GH). There *were* cambions- like Iuz. Not people who hang around town selling magic items.No race of ancient demon descended-people ala Tieflings in pre-wars GH. (the term was introduced and folded into canon in 2E after the GH Wars and FTA boxed sets) I could keep going and start picking the whole book apart, but I won't. Suffice to say WOTC are mixing elements of pre- and post wars GH with no rhyme or reason whatsoever in the Ghosts of Saltmarsh book or ignoring things altogether. As GH fan and fan of both pre- and post GH Wars, I find it shoddy. That others feel the need to see into it what they want to see despite the obvious, I can't explain why- I'm guessing EDIT- people who are willing to ignore things because they cannot imagine their favorite thing isn't perfect/superior/bestest. Historically WOTC have shown themselves to be inept/lazy in their treatment of TSR era settings. Ghosts is no different.
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Post by Zenopus on Apr 18, 2020 13:07:28 GMT -6
Moderator Hat: On this board please refrain from using terms like "5E fanboy syndrome". We don't do edition warring here, and we have members who are fans of both OD&D and 5E. Fin plays 5E regularly. Non-moderator Hat: The quote is from ripvanwormer on the Piazza (the source is linked right before the quote), a setting forum that is rules neutral. Ripvanwormer is super-knowledgeable on various TSR settings across editions, including Greyhawk. I quoted that part about Dyvers to dispute your point about delegates from Iuz being welcome in other lands in the classic setting time period, not to dispute that it is far off (I agree, Iuz is very far from the coast of Keoland). Ghosts of Saltmarsh also explains why Keoland is tolerant of Iuz at the time. Tieflings are a default race in 5E (found in the SRD), so it's not surprising to find them in a 5E reboot of a classic module.
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Post by hamurai on Apr 18, 2020 14:21:02 GMT -6
The 5E book wasn't meant as a Greyhawk Guidebook, It's about Saltmarsh. This is absolutely true, but the book is very much about a town in the world of GH, and talks quite a bit things that are uniquely Greyhawk [...] Crap design work. 1.) I'm no expert on Greyhawk and I presume the book isn't specially designed for GH experts because younger players (Those who started with 5E, who are clearly a target group.) probably don't know much about it.
2.) The book states in the Saltmarsh Overview (p. 11) that the Saltmarsh residents will react to Tieflings and Dragonborn with a mix of "curiosity and fear", so it's probably not the intention to integrate these races with a wave of the hand.
3.) If a DM running the Saltmarsh adventures as a campaign was willing and invested enough to learn about GH and to keep true to the old lore, they will simply not allow Tieflings as player characters. It's not a given that everything in the PHB and/or the other books is allowed in any campaign. For example, in our group Dragonborn are not allowed and by allowing the Variant Human race our players are a little more encouraged to play human characters. The 5E PHB was written as setting-neutral, although it clearly leans towards the Forgotten Realms and with the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide it was made the "default setting".
4.) The fact that the use of Saltmarsh in other settings is not only mentioned but encouraged with tips and hints tells me that it's firstly meant as an adventure book. "Make it your game" - why wouldn't you be allowed to set Saltmarsh wherever you like?
Monte Cook re-make Ptolus for the Cypher System and 5E D&D, the pirate town of Freeport* has been used in the settings of Pathfinder, D&D, Shadow of the Demon Lord, and probably more. So Saltmarsh isn't the first and personally, I don't see why it would be such a bad idea. Since I assume they won't reboot Greyhawk for 5E soon, Saltmarsh is at least the first step in that direction, and as a fan you could also be happy that your beloved setting has gotten a first stepping stone for a new generation of players to discover.
* Here's another idea for your pirate adventures, Fin!
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 18, 2020 15:04:25 GMT -6
I no reason to shell out the money unless you want to use a big chunk of the other adventures, rules bits, etc in the 5e book. Well, it turns out that I like to support my local game store and so I pretty much have a "standing order" to buy new WotC 5E hardbacks as they come out -- so I do own the 5E hardback. I may have some of the original modules, I can't recall because I picked up some lots off of e-bay a couple years back. I know I never played them at the time, however, so my familiarity with the whole Saltmarsh thing is minimal. That's part of why I started the thread, because if I can short-cut my way through the hardback it would be better than having to slog through the whole thing. If the original modules are "better" in terms of plot I may make use of those, too, but my main thrust was going to be to make use of the hardback.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 18, 2020 15:26:01 GMT -6
Moderator Hat: On this board please refrain from using terms like "5E fanboy syndrome". We don't do edition warring here, and we have members who are fans of both OD&D and 5E. Fin plays 5E regularly. Non-moderator Hat: The quote is from ripvanwormer on the Piazza (the source is linked right before the quote), a setting forum that is rules neutral. Ripvanwormer is super-knowledgeable on various TSR settings across editions, including Greyhawk. I quoted that part about Dyvers to dispute your point about delegates from Iuz being welcome in other lands in the classic setting time period, not to dispute that it is far off (I agree, Iuz is very far from the coast of Keoland). Ghosts of Saltmarsh also explains why Keoland is tolerant of Iuz at the time. Tieflings are a default race in 5E (found in the SRD), so it's not surprising to find them in a 5E reboot of a classic module. I edited my post to be less "offensive" . FWIW- I play 5E too. Like Fin, I play it because players like it. But it's not my favorite iteration. I'm not sure where I mentioned being surprised by any of this There is no doubt one can explain away anything- especially to make things work with the new edition of choice. WOTC did it in 3rd edition with a multitude of things and rules in all the settings. Same same with 4th edition, and they have done it in 5th edition. It is their modus operandi to have the rules inform the setting. I am a proponent of the rules being informed by the setting. Dyvers and GH are not the same as Keoland, or say Furyondy. Both the CoGH and Dyvers rely on that kind of trade and pride themselves as neutral places to do business. They would absolutely be more tolerant of delegates from Iuz (because someone is getting their pockets lined ) Keoland, Furyondy, and many others historically are not. IDK who ripvanwormer is, nor am I concerned, but good for him/her. I know that I have been tracking GH since 1980-to 1981 (before that if you count the modules that came out long before the setting folio did) and buying products in print. I still own most all of them in PDF. I do know enough to say that the WOTC presentation of Saltmarsh differs from the Pre GH Wars era. Heck, In U1 it is a described as a sleepy fishing town of approximately 2K people. 5E says it's a bastion of civilization with 5K people. :shrug: At any rate, If others are willing to handwave all the "little details" that make GH, GH - that's fine. I'm not a fan. So I'd recommend (as I did earlier) that Fin pay 2-6 bucks for some conversions of modules he already owns instead of shelling out for the new book that also adds/introduces all kinds of extraneous plot elements that actually makes the adventures harder to run than the originals are ( thanks to the 5E concept of factions having to be present and involved in the PC's lives in nearly all adventures they produce)
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Post by jeffb on Apr 18, 2020 15:43:20 GMT -6
I no reason to shell out the money unless you want to use a big chunk of the other adventures, rules bits, etc in the 5e book. Well, it turns out that I like to support my local game store and so I pretty much have a "standing order" to buy new WotC 5E hardbacks as they come out -- so I do own the 5E hardback. I may have some of the original modules, I can't recall because I picked up some lots off of e-bay a couple years back. I know I never played them at the time, however, so my familiarity with the whole Saltmarsh thing is minimal. That's part of why I started the thread, because if I can short-cut my way through the hardback it would be better than having to slog through the whole thing. If the original modules are "better" in terms of plot I may make use of those, too, but my main thrust was going to be to make use of the hardback. You posted before I finished typing up my response to @zenopus So, see the last paragraph below. The Ghosts of.. introduces many other plots and factions to deal with in the town. I'd suggest skipping all that business and getting characters into the action going to the Haunted House. All of the adventures are meant to be tied into the main plot- including the newer adventures they added from Dungeon magazine. As I said previous I am not a fan of where they took the whole plot of U2/U3 originally in AD&D, so I ignore it, and instead weave the antagonists into the plot line of The Slavers.
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 18, 2020 16:10:07 GMT -6
I'd suggest skipping all that business and getting characters into the action going to the Haunted House. All of the adventures are meant to be tied into the main plot- including the newer adventures they added from Dungeon magazine. As I said previous I am not a fan of where they took the whole plot of U2/U3 originally in AD&D, so I ignore it, and instead weave the antagonists into the plot line of The Slavers. This is great advice, so thanks! I wasn't sure how much of the town was needed, other than being a general base of operations in between adventures. (I never read Dungeon magazine. Any idea which issue numbers I might search for?) I figured the haunted house would be the perfect launching point for the campaign.
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Post by jeffb on Apr 18, 2020 16:37:05 GMT -6
I'd suggest skipping all that business and getting characters into the action going to the Haunted House. All of the adventures are meant to be tied into the main plot- including the newer adventures they added from Dungeon magazine. As I said previous I am not a fan of where they took the whole plot of U2/U3 originally in AD&D, so I ignore it, and instead weave the antagonists into the plot line of The Slavers. This is great advice, so thanks! I wasn't sure how much of the town was needed, other than being a general base of operations in between adventures. (I never read Dungeon magazine. Any idea which issue numbers I might search for?) I figured the haunted house would be the perfect launching point for the campaign. The town is vastly more important in U2/U3. Like Hommlett, The Keep, or any other number of classic adventures, Saltmarsh is just a typical sleepy backwater "starter town". The PC's come to town because they have heard of the Haunted House, or hang around and hear word from the local drunks about the place being Haunted. The idea is the Adventurers are seen as big heroes as they trek up the coast to the Haunted House- followed and cheered by the local youngsters, who start to peel off out of fear as the PC's get closer and closer to the old cliffside mansion. Frankly, I never felt the town needed the amount of design work/detail as the original module indicates you should/will. It's easy enough to scribble a map, and a few buildings and improv. The Town Council and their heavier involvement will come later, but if running only U1, it's still something you can improv easily enough and move along. I never fleshed out the town as they said. I grabbed a map and made up names of places and notated as I went along. The town is not the focus of the initial adventure and I never utilized the latter parts, so I didn't feel compelled to do the work. The DUNGEON magazine adventures added, I'm unsure of issues- I'm pretty sure they were all 1E or 2E adventures. The original Saltmarsh Trilogy is only U1- The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, U2 Danger at Dunwater, and U3 The Final Enemy. "ghosts" Integrates the other adventures (from Dungeon Mag) into this larger plotline of the U series, though I cannot recall what the order of adventures is. Really , though "ghosts" does a lot of work for you on the town and adding a lot of $ value in additional adventure material-both with the additional adventures, and also the details of surrounding areas- It also complicates the main storyline of the original Trilogy by adding all this extra info about the town, the factions, what's going elsewhere and the additional adventures from DUNGEON mag. Six of one , half a dozen of the other.
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Post by Zenopus on Apr 18, 2020 17:08:47 GMT -6
Fin, Here's a quick reference list of the establishments in Saltmarsh in Ghosts of Saltmarsh. I found the list of locations when converting the Tower of Zenopus for the adventure site in Ghosts, and just added some annotations for you. The map of Saltmarsh is numbered, which correspond to the text, but there's no quick list so you end up needing to flip around the book to find out what all of the locations are. With this list and the map, you might even be able to just wing any town activities if you don't want to use the full descriptions. LIST OF LOCATIONS IN SALTMARSH1. City Gate: on road from Burle 2. Barracks and Jail: jailer Kraddock is a friend of Eliander 3. The Wicker Goat: oldest tavern in town, popular with town guard & dwarves, owner Lankus is retired soldier 4. Eliander Fireborn’s House: captain of the town guard 5. Mining Company Headquarters: dwarves, led by Manistrad Copperlocks 6. Keledek Tower: residence of sinister mage 7. Faithful Quartermasters of Iuz: trade delegation, led by Captain Xendros 8. Empty Net: seedy tavern frequented by thieves etc, proprietor Kreb Shenker 9. Green Market: non-nautical goods 10. Sharkfin Bridge: spans the river, lined with shops along each side 11. Kester’s Leather Goods: proprietor Kester will pay for exotic (monster) hides
12. Hoolwatch Tower: armory, lookout, Eliander typically here 13. The Snapping Line: tavern for fisherman, proprietor Hanna Rist from lobstering family 14. Council Hall: gallows out front but rarely used
15. Weekly Market: fish, nautical goods & almost everything else (buy goods from PHB up to 150 GP).
16. Primewater Mansion: wealthy residence of Gellan Primewater, gnome cook Feliza will hire PCs to find rare ingredients 17. The Dwarven Anvil: blacksmith, human Mafera (mother) and Jasker (son) 18. Fishmongers’ Plants: fish processing 19. Oweland House: wealthy residence of head of town council Eda Oweland 20. Solmor House: wealthy residence of Anders Solmor, fishing magnate 21. Mariners’ Guildhall 22. Ingo the Drover’s House: disgraced general in hiding, hires out guards, friend of Eliander 23. Carpenters’ Guildhall: Jilar Kankleston the gnome 24. Crabber’s Cove: creepy abandoned buildings 25. The Leap: landmark on road out of town to Seaton 26. Temple of Procan (sea god): tended by Wellgar Brinehanded, human priest 27. Saltmarsh Cemetery: gravedigger Krag is also a local historian & friend to Eliander 28. Winston’s Store: equipment shop, sells maps of the marshes, propietor Winston is a halfling & former bandit 29. Sea Grove of Obad-Hai: tended by Ferrin Kastilar, hafling druid & friend of elves who guard the border of the Dreadwood
30. Standing Stones: mysterious stones on an island in the harbor There are three main factions in town: Traditionalists: Fishing families, Eda Oweland (head of town council), Gellan Primewater Loyalists: Town Guard, Dwarves, Eliander Fireborn (captain of town guard), Manistrad Copperlocks (leader of mining company) and Scarlet Brotherhood: Anders Solmor (rich dupe), Skerrin Wavechaser (bodyguard, secret agent) Town Council is Eda, Gellan, Eliander, Manistrad, Anders
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 18, 2020 17:48:09 GMT -6
Zenopus, I noticed also that the "Tower of Zenopus" is on the Saltmarsh area map. Can I assume that your 5E version would fit in there in that location?
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Post by Zenopus on Apr 18, 2020 18:02:03 GMT -6
Yes! I included two pages of notes with suggestions for tying the original dungeon in with the setting and personalities of Saltmarsh as described in Ghosts of Saltmarsh.
As I note in there, if you include both the Haunted House and the Tower of Zenopus as starting adventures, you make the setting more of a sandbox by giving the players two different options to start with.
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