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Post by tdenmark on Apr 3, 2020 20:21:09 GMT -6
I'm converting A Princess of Mars into an adventure for Warriors of the Red Planet, and any compatible OSR game. The first step was to figure out how to make it work for a party. So I made an outline of the entire novel, and am mapping out each location and turning them into sandbox style areas. The question is whether or not John Carter is a character in the adventure or an NPC, or just kind of left out. The mysterious cave is now a Thurn* temple you can access through a secret door in the back of the cave. This has advanced Barsoomian technology and kind of explains how the cave is an interplanetary teleporter. In the area of Fort Grant there is a plot by the Thurns to get a foothold on Jasoom (Earth). Players are Pinkertons, bounty hunters, cavalrymen, scouts, Apache warriors, gunslingers, veterans of the Civil War, prospectors, etc. So the game just starts out as a sort of western that gets...weird.  I'll treat this thread as a Design Diary and post playtest notes and take suggestions on converting it. *probably not Thurn. I want to make this a predecessor to an invasion from Barsoom of some sort and the players thwart it (as just one adventure opportunity, there will be many opportunities for the game group to make it their own). |
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 4, 2020 4:47:54 GMT -6
You had me at "Princess of Mars" so let me know where to send my money!  Seriously, I'm glad to see you return to WotRP. The product line could use some support! |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 5, 2020 0:47:59 GMT -6
 The novel starts out with a framing device of John Carter's tomb and ERB himself inheriting his property and manuscript of the strange story. I'm not sure how well that fits into an adventure. Maybe it will be worth it to illustrate Carter's home and tomb and tie it into the adventure. But I'd prefer to start with Arizona. The first map is the Ft. Grant area of the Arizona territory in the late 1800's. Edgar Rice Burroughs was stationed there (really) for 10 months and had some adventures like hunting the notorious Apache Kid. Billy the Kid was also active in the era a couple decades earlier, so it gives some historical context. This was the time of cattle rustlers, outlaws, Apache raids, and prospectors still mining for gold. To adapt the novel it seemed a good idea to start the adventure out as a western, like the book does. This could be a good intro for players who know nothing of the ERB Mars books as it can seem like a traditional old west game that escalates into a weird martian adventure. Players create characters as gunfighters, gamblers, scouts, pony soldiers, etc. All basic Fighting Men. It wouldn't be too hard to lure them to the cave. Stories of gold. Chasing a bounty. Investigating the weird-acting priest of the local missionary, who is actually a Thurn in disguise, who keeps visiting the cave. I have more thoughts on the cave for the next post. An interesting detail is that the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope is near that area. This could make for some interesting tie ins with strange technology and the Vatican's awareness of it. Maybe that interests me because I've read some fascinating conspiratorial theories about the telescope there, it also happens to be on a place considered sacred by the natives. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 5, 2020 6:04:54 GMT -6
As a huge BOOT HILL rpg fan, I love the concept that the first part of the adventure could (should?) be a Western. And I really like the notion that the characters would be created as such. Totally love the way this thing is going. |
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Post by Piper on Apr 5, 2020 6:56:55 GMT -6
Agreed, strong ideas.
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 8, 2020 18:19:44 GMT -6
Let's talk about The Cave. I spent part of my childhood in Marana AZ, which is not terribly far from Fort Grant, so I am familiar with what the terrain is like. The Arizona desert is incredible and it is hard to explain how beautiful and wonderful it is, you have to experience it. I'd ride my horse along the washes, which where places that would flood during Monsoon season, and explore the cactus and brush filled canyons and hills. So Arizona holds a sort of magical nostalgic feeling for me. I can understand why it had such an impact on ERB though he only spent a short time there. By May 13, 1896, when ERB arrived at Ft. Grant the Apache uprisings had largely been quelled. There were still some fighting the settlers, like the Apache Kid, as well as plenty of outlaws, and notorious Cowboys, a name which had a very different connotation back then. In doing research I've been looking into the Apache side of the conflict and it is tragic as they fought the Spanish explorers, and then the Mexicans, and finally the US Cavalry to remain free and in control of their homelands. The Apaches considered Mount Graham to be sacred. And when you read conspiracy theories about the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope the reason they built it there was because of the mystical energy in the place. Here is a narrative thread combining these ideas. Thurns trying to get a foothold on Jasoom built a teleporter under Mount Graham long ago. The strange activity appeared supernatural to the Apaches thus it became sacred. The Cave was on old gold mine that the Thurns excavated and built their teleporter in. They make it seem haunted in order to scare people away - thus the strange sounds. Perhaps the mountain holds some nexus of natural energy or magnetic waves.
The cave itself has become a hive. Thurns pretend to be priests in local missionaries, infiltrate towns by running Trading Posts. Some are snake-oil salesmen. There is a lot of potential with their nefarious intentions and the players can slowly become aware of this, or investigate strange activity. All this eventually leading them to The Cave where they have a confrontation with the Thurns, maybe rescue some people they've taken captive for strange experiments, and of course end up getting teleported to Mars.
What if the teleporter is unperfected technology, and the location on Mars where it teleports to is random.
So, I sketched out a map.
1. The dead-end canyon
2. The Cave appears as described in the book. In the back is a secret door.
3. The first room carved with Thurn technology, strange smooth walls. Weird machinery.
4-6. various chambers
7. The teleportation machine with a great antennae stretching up to the mountain peak (where the modern day Telescope is now built).
8-9. Various chambers
10. Prisoners in tubes, their life force is drained to power the teleporter. Freeing them activates the machine, it becomes unstable, all the PC's are teleported to Mars... ---------- Finarvyn Note: I color-coded the "narrative thread" so as to make it clear which parts are actual historical and which parts are game speculation. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 9, 2020 5:27:22 GMT -6
As I noted above, I wanted to make it visual as to which parts of thomden's posts are actual history and which parts are game narrative. I think that the fact that he has actually visited that area is fantastic, and it's good to keep this separate from game narrative. This layer of historical research should make this adventure particularly special. I'm excited to see every update! |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 9, 2020 15:31:43 GMT -6
As I noted above, I wanted to make it visual as to which parts of thomden's posts are actual history and which parts are game narrative. Thanks Finarvyn, that helps! I'll try to keep it organized that way. A note about the historical research, don't worry I'm going to be as slavishly close to the original text as possible. The research is just to provide context and bonus material if the GM wants to use it. I have a lot more about the Fort Grant area and the time period, I have to be careful not to get off on too much of a tangent. But I think it'd be really cool to play a traditional western and bit by bit weirdness comes in that eventually leads to adventures on Mars. I'm a fan of Wild, Wild West and The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr. Of course the GM could just drop the players on Mars and go. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 9, 2020 17:29:09 GMT -6
Agreed, but I kind of like the idea of launching a Boot Hill style game, letting the campaign run for a while, then BAM! hitting them with a trip to Barsoom. Having a decent amount of backdrop for the Earth part is a plus, in my opinion.  |
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Post by hamurai on Apr 10, 2020 0:30:54 GMT -6
I like what I see! Looking forward to this! |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 10, 2020 10:58:43 GMT -6
Agreed, but I kind of like the idea of launching a Boot Hill style game, letting the campaign run for a while, then BAM! hitting them with a trip to Barsoom. Having a decent amount of backdrop for the Earth part is a plus, in my opinion. Are there any Boot Hill retro-clones? |
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Post by Piper on Apr 10, 2020 11:41:51 GMT -6
Are there any Boot Hill retro-clones? Talk surfaces every so often, but I've not seen a retro-clone of BH. I've seen a few Olde West style settings based upon OD&D (or its retroclones) that would probably suit your needs. Check out Shotgns & Saddles Old West RPG by Dave Bezio's Grey Area Games. It's own of my faves. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 10, 2020 12:41:06 GMT -6
Piper is probably on the right track here, as Warriors of the Red Planet is itself a retro style game, that one should use some sort of retro western system instead of Boot Hill. As much as I am a BH fan, it would require some degree of conversion at the partway mark in the adventure. We would want the two parts of the adventure to fit together seamlessly instead of needing a character conversion along the way.
- - - - -
EDIT: I'm not sure about Shotguns & Saddles, mostly because they start with 12 stats and that seems to require more conversions to fit with Warriors of the Red Planet. I think that Go Fer Yer Gun might be a better choice, since it was built from the Castles & Crusades game system and I think that's more "traditional" in its style.
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Post by Piper on Apr 10, 2020 14:14:31 GMT -6
I think that Go Fer Yer Gun might be a better choice, since it was built from the Castles & Crusades game system and I think that's more "traditional" in its style. That one was actually my second choice! |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 10, 2020 15:33:24 GMT -6
So there is no real OSR western compatible with OD&D? Sounds like an opportunity...
What classes would you want to see? If you could only choose 3.
These are some that are in my notes:
Cowboy
Gambler
Gunslinger
Pinkerton
Pony Soldier
Scout
Bounty Hunter
Mountain Man
Martial Artist (ala the classic Kung Fu tv show)
Charlatan/Snake Oil Salesman/Mountebank
Brave
Doctor
Outlaw
Vaquero
Buffalo Soldier
And "races"
(not sure I'd want to go here, maybe call it ancestry or culture instead?)
European
Asian
Mexican
Native (Apache)
Mexican
African
etc.
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 10, 2020 16:30:07 GMT -6
Oh, hah, just saw that Go Fer Yer Gun! is in my DriveThru library! I'm checking it out now for some inspiration.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Apr 11, 2020 23:22:20 GMT -6
This adventure is a really cool concept!
One nitpick: it's spelled "Thern" (not "Thurn").
Are you using the movie version of the Therns (where they are an inter-planetary conspiracy) rather than the book version (where their conspiracy is just an outer layer and they are themselves victims of a greater conspiracy run by the First Born and their "goddess" queen Issus?)
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 12, 2020 2:28:40 GMT -6
This adventure is a really cool concept! One nitpick: it's spelled "Thern" (not "Thurn"). Are you using the movie version of the Therns (where they are an inter-planetary conspiracy) rather than the book version (where their conspiracy is just an outer layer and they are themselves victims of a greater conspiracy run by the First Born and their "goddess" queen Issus?) Great point and question. Man, Holy Thurn is from Warriors of the Red Planet which is the system I'm designing this for. At the time the co-author and I made WotRP we were being extremely and overly cautious of any potential copyright issues and used no specific term or name from the actual ERB books. All of them were spelled differently and described specifically for the RPG. It's a Sword & Planet Genre book, not a John Carter of Mars book. Since then there has been more information come to light about copyrights. I don't believe there is any copyright issue. The first 5 books are in public domain. Characters from public domain books cannot be copyrighted. About the movie Therns. It was my favorite thing about the movie! I thought it was a brilliant reinterpretation of who they are. Therns (or Thurns...whichever I end up using) only make a brief optional appearance in the beginning of this adventure. Either way, movie or book or RPG version it is reasonable to think they have the technological means to create some sort of weird transportation system between Barsoom and Jasoom. And that they'd want to infiltrate Jasoom. |
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Post by cometaryorbit on Apr 13, 2020 23:40:46 GMT -6
Man, Holy Thurn is from Warriors of the Red Planet which is the system I'm designing this for. At the time the co-author and I made WotRP we were being extremely and overly cautious of any potential copyright issues and used no specific term or name from the actual ERB books. All of them were spelled differently and described specifically for the RPG. Ah, ok, got it. It was definitely cool.
Not that it matters for this, but strictly book-verse it is pretty clear that they have no space/interplanetary capabilities. There's the whole bit about the Therns believing the First Born come from Thuria/Phobos (the nearer moon) and apparently have believed this for many thousands of years... if they had any capabilities like that they'd have known that was false.
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 14, 2020 1:12:17 GMT -6
Not that it matters for this, but strictly book-verse it is pretty clear that they have no space/interplanetary capabilities. There's the whole bit about the Therns believing the First Born come from Thuria/Phobos (the nearer moon) and apparently have believed this for many thousands of years... if they had any capabilities like that they'd have known that was false.
What would you suggest to explain an interplanetary transportation device inside of a cave? |
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Post by cometaryorbit on Apr 14, 2020 21:26:49 GMT -6
Not that it matters for this, but strictly book-verse it is pretty clear that they have no space/interplanetary capabilities. There's the whole bit about the Therns believing the First Born come from Thuria/Phobos (the nearer moon) and apparently have believed this for many thousands of years... if they had any capabilities like that they'd have known that was false.
What would you suggest to explain an interplanetary transportation device inside of a cave? Hmm, I never actually thought of it as any kind of intentionally-designed interplanetary transporter. The way it's described with him feeling a "snap" and looking down at his body, then looking up, really sounds like he basically died from the gas. I understood Carter's transportation to Mars being more spiritual, like reincarnation, rather than any kind of technology.
Especially since in 'the Master Mind of Mars' the same kind of transportation happens to Ulysses Paxton without any kind of mysterious cave, he gets mortally wounded/killed in WWI by ordinary technological weapons.
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 15, 2020 2:10:39 GMT -6
Hmm, I never actually thought of it as any kind of intentionally-designed interplanetary transporter. The way it's described with him feeling a "snap" and looking down at his body, then looking up, really sounds like he basically died from the gas. I understood Carter's transportation to Mars being more spiritual, like reincarnation, rather than any kind of technology.
So it would be better if the Party entered the cave. All die. Travel as spirit beings and arrive in bodies on Mars? I'm not the only one that has found the way John Carter and Ulysses made their way to Mars...unsatisfying. Raising more questions than it answers. I think in this day and age we expect a more "scientific" explanation. Which is why I also prefer the events to take place in ancient Mars. It will ultimately be left up to the GM and a list of options provided how they want to get the Party to Barsoom. In my head cannon its some sort of technology in the cave that, not too unlike Star Trek transporters, sends John Carter (or a copy of him?) to Mars. And that technology was made long ago when Barsoom was at the height of its technology. Perhaps ancestors of the Therns, or the First Born or something. |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 15, 2020 2:37:13 GMT -6
 Here is my first pass at actually drawing a map of the Ft. Grant area and placing some of the key things from Chapter 1. The Cave: this is the place the party is teleported to Mars from.
Apache Camp: depending on player's actions the Apaches may be friendly or hostile.
Safford: The town where characters can get supplies from.
Cottonwood: a wretched hive of scum and villainy.
Bonita: the place Billy the Kid killed a man just for coughing.
Eden: a small frontier town
Mt. Graham. This is the peak of the sacred mountains. Strange lights and eerie things happen around here
The chapter is actually set in the White Mountains a bit north of Mt. Graham, but I found Ft. Graham a much more interesting adventure area. Of course the GM could put it in the White Mountains if they prefer.This took a while because I was doing a deep dive in research and really got overwhelmed with the detail. Even just focusing in on one county (Graham County) there is too much info, and not enough of the stuff I actually need. Also I was going to just write one western character class, something like a Gunslinger or Cavalrymen, next thing I know I'm writing a mini RPG with 5 character classes, equipment, a combat system, setting info... I'll post more on that later. |
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Post by cometaryorbit on Apr 15, 2020 21:43:12 GMT -6
Oh, yeah, that would certainly work better for the adventure. I was just talking about the differences between the book and movie version... (I really do think Burroughs intended it to be a reincarnation type thing, he used that theme a lot - The Eternal Savage, the Moon Maid/Moon Men/Red Hawk series, and Back to the Stone Age all have it...)
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 15, 2020 22:24:03 GMT -6
Oh, yeah, that would certainly work better for the adventure. I was just talking about the differences between the book and movie version... (I really do think Burroughs intended it to be a reincarnation type thing, he used that theme a lot - The Eternal Savage, the Moon Maid/Moon Men/Red Hawk series, and Back to the Stone Age all have it...) Part of why I ask these questions is looking to find out what can be bent or changed to fit the adventure and not turn off fans of the book. I could list some things in the movie that I think are an improvement over the book. The Therns The teleporation amulet John Carter actually using his strength and jumping advantages (though it went a little too far for me and broke suspension of disbelief). Explaining why John Carter built a tomb that only unlocks from the inside. The character of Dejah Thoris. I thought she wasn't going to work, but the actress did a great job and had a lot more agency. Zodanga being a walking city devouring other cities was almost cool. There are plenty of things wrong with the movie too. But not much point in bringing those up. |
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Post by cometaryorbit on Apr 15, 2020 22:49:24 GMT -6
The walking city bit was genuinely cool. And I agree Dejah was handled very well.
What was done with the Therns was probably better in the context of the movie as a standalone story, but maybe not if you want to bring in the rest of Barsoom from the later books.
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 16, 2020 19:21:05 GMT -6
The walking city bit was genuinely cool. And I agree Dejah was handled very well. What was done with the Therns was probably better in the context of the movie as a standalone story, but maybe not if you want to bring in the rest of Barsoom from the later books. Only the first 5 books are in public domain, and that'd be a lot of work. Once this one is finished if there is a huge demand, of course it will be something to consider. I think the 6th book enters public domain next year. I'm currently rereading the entire series on Audiobook. There are so many details I've forgotten. I'm going to go out on a limb and say it is some serious first rate world building as good as anything being done today. Even with all the contradictions and retroactive changes. All the more remarkable because ERB was the first to do it! This was decades before Tolkien. It would be conducive to a series of adventures if there is a through-line of big-bad-villains that runs from beginning to end. So, any ideas? Oh, and according to some interviews with Andrew Stanton (director of John Carter) he had a master plan for a trilogy and it appears the Therns were a part of it. |
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Post by tdenmark on Apr 16, 2020 19:55:28 GMT -6
The Gunslinger As mentioned I am indeed making a Wild West RPG to accompany this adventure. I didn't want to do it, but the adventure demanded it. I started playtesting it last week and have a handful of character classes and a rough plan for how it will be structured. The thing about the old west is there are hundreds of colorful characters! When you start brainstorming classes the list quickly explodes. Cowboys, outlaws, gunslingers, gamblers, mountain men, Braves, lawmen, Vaqueros, Cavalrymen, and on and on. What to collapse into archetypes and what to break out into their own classes? This has always been the problem with class based games. I like the ultra minimalism of the original LBB with 3 classes. Knights, Vikings, Samurai? all Fighting Men. Wizards, witches, and sorcerers? All Magic Users. Priests, mystics, and shaman? All Clerics. Easy peezy lemon squeezy. The MOMENT you add a Thief class it all goes to hell. Don't get me wrong, I love thieves, and paladins, and druids, and assassins, and ninjas, and dragon spell dancer sword mistresses! Give me all the classes, I eat them up like candy. Yum. To get back to the Wild West, lets start with the most iconic, the most cool character possible. The Man with No Name: The Gunslinger. And build on that with specialties called Paths that can be taken to customize the character a bit to taste. The class is definitely OSR in spirit, but a little bit d20, a little bit 5th edition. Not all the details are worked out yet. GunslingerPrimary Ability: Dexterity 13+ gets a 5% XP bonus each level. Weapon proficiencies: revolver, rifle, bowie knife  Gunslinging: at 1st level a gunslinger excels with a revolver. They get +1 AB and +1 Initiative to draw. Horsemanship: at 3rd level a gunslinger is attuned to riding in the saddle. They nearly cannot be thrown off, and have a +1 to all ranged and melee attacks and have +1 AC while on a saddled horse. Deadeye: at 5th level a gunslinger is a master with a revolver. They get +2 AB and +2 Initiative to draw. Getaway: at 7th level a gunslinger is nearly impossible to catch when they are fleeing a scene. Extra Attack: at 9th level a gunslinger gains 1 additional attack per round. Gunslinger PathsGambler: anyone can play poker, gamblers are just d**n good at it. Bluff. Read Opponent. Luck. Outlaw: An outlaw is one who stole horses, robbed banks, and lived outside of civil society. They were proficient with a lasso, riding a horse, and at aiming their rifle or revolver. Sometimes they’d take a legitimate job working on a ranch, but would just as soon rustle some cattle or rob a stagecoach. Lasso proficiency. Wrangling: outlaws can herd cattle and are skilled with a lariat getting +2 AB to entangle a target up to 25’ away. Pick Locks: +2 to attempts (Dex check) Mountain Man: some settlers leave civilized life and “go native”. They are the hardiest of men, usually friends with natives and attuned to nature. They know all the best hunting grounds, watering holes, and the plants that are good for eating. Hunting: +2. Tracking: +2 to Wisdom (Perception) checks. Fortitude: +2 to Constitution checks. Or we could just use Go Fer Yer Gun. |
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Post by Finarvyn on Apr 17, 2020 6:33:46 GMT -6
I like the 3-class concept. I guess the question is: which three?
(1) Starting with OD&D, the "fighting man" can encompass the gunslinger, various soldiers, pugilists.
(2) The "cleric" could be a town doctor or native medicine man, and might represent all healers.
(3) No equivalent to "magic user" so we might have to ponder the 3rd class, maybe something like "ranger" which could be army scouts, mountain men, explorers, and so on.
So maybe not so much work after all?
Turning to Warriors of the Red Planet:
(1) Fighting men. Got it; see above.
(2) Scoundrels. Ah, maybe we add in gamblers and con men. I didn't think of those when I was brainstorming above.
(3) Mentalists. Not really appropriate in a traditional western genre game.
(4) Scientists. Hmmm. Maybe one could throw in some "wild west" gizmos, or they could tie into the Thern machines. These would be some sort of inventors, I suppose.
So, putting them together what to we get? We have fighters covered and probably scoundrels from WotRP already. Add in new classes of healer (cleric) and explorer (ranger) and that covers the "real world" part.
Just me thinking out loud.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Apr 17, 2020 18:39:40 GMT -6
Only the first 5 books are in public domain, and that'd be a lot of work. Once this one is finished if there is a huge demand, of course it will be something to consider. I think the 6th book enters public domain next year. True, but the movie version of the Therns isn't even compatible with book 2 (in which it's revealed that the Therns are only the "outer ring" and are being completely deceived and preyed upon by the "inner conspiracy" of the First Born, themselves deceived and preyed upon by Issus).
ERB gets far too little credit for worldbuilding, certainly as compared to fantastic authors of the same general era (Dunsany, E. R. Eddison, etc.). He had a map of Pellucidar in 1915, and the Barsoomian ancient history implied holds together very well, etc.
Depends how close you want to hew to "canon". I think the Kaldanes as secret manipulators of human-Barsoomian villains would be an awesome concept, though they're not a very important element in the actual novels. (I believe later fans have suggested a connection between the Kaldanes and H. G. Wells' Martians...) The Kaldanes have plans to survive even if the Barsoomian atmosphere fails, so they might have truly world-wrecking plots. This would work well especially if you want to emphasize the element of psionic powers on Barsoom.
Another thought... What would happen if the Lotharians under Tario discovered that the rest of Barsoom was still populated? With their powers, they could be a global threat despite their small numbers...
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