|
Post by tkdco2 on Mar 22, 2020 17:40:09 GMT -6
Last week I was looking at some threads about the Lord of the Rings rpg by ICE and read a comment about how well the Bard class fits Gandalf. That had me thinking. That's actually a good idea. After all, Gandalf mainly inspired people to take action against Sauron, which would fit the D&D model of a Bard quite well. Saruman also fits the model, as he learned the lore about the Rings of Power.
I have seen Gandalf written up as a cleric, so I don't have a problem seeing him as a bard. He fights well with a sword. While I don't see him picking pockets, he can probably move silently and hide in shadows quite well. His spells often involve fire, which can come from the magic-user or druid list of spells.
It depends which version you use. The OD&D versions works as is. The AD&D 1E also works, although I would modify it a bit. The Dragon Magazine variant removes thief skills and adds illusionist spells. The 2E writeup may work, although it's not as potent as the previous versions.
Thoughts on this?
|
|
|
Post by Finarvyn on Mar 22, 2020 18:07:58 GMT -6
I dunno. When I think about clerics I can see Gandalf as one somewhat because JRRT imagined him and the others as a kind of holy spirit. When I think of bards I think of music, and I don't see Gandalf playing a banjo and singing about the First Age. In other words, the mechanic of the bard may be okay but for me the feel isn't. I'll have to ponder further, however, as this is the first time I've seen such a suggestion. Maybe with time it will grow on me.
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Mar 22, 2020 18:18:47 GMT -6
While bards are musical by nature, I tend to see them more as lore masters or jacks of all trades. They are definitely portrayed as such in MERP.
|
|
|
Post by doublejig2 on Mar 22, 2020 19:37:14 GMT -6
Perhaps on this take Istari are specific bards who recollect by way of experience and levels a prior time in the West. Perhaps there is a pivotal realization after which these bards are embrace being full-fledged Istari.
|
|
|
Post by Porphyre on Mar 23, 2020 17:22:18 GMT -6
If I had the Istari written down in OD&D stats, I would probably see it in Suppl IV style rather than as a classic class.
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Mar 24, 2020 9:48:27 GMT -6
I think the sword restriction has just got to be dropped in Middle-earth.
I prefer Gandalf as a Magic-User, or Pyrologist/Pyromancer if available. I suppose it is not a 100% match, but, if you are going to make a wizard of Gandalf’s “school,” I think it is the best match.
I have done some work of converting the (excellent!!) Decipher LotR spells to D&D, and making custom spell lists. But the above will do in a pinch.
|
|
|
Post by verhaden on Mar 24, 2020 10:32:38 GMT -6
I dunno. When I think about clerics I can see Gandalf as one somewhat because JRRT imagined him and the others as a kind of holy spirit. When I think of bards I think of music, and I don't see Gandalf playing a banjo and singing about the First Age. In other words, the mechanic of the bard may be okay but for me the feel isn't. I'll have to ponder further, however, as this is the first time I've seen such a suggestion. Maybe with time it will grow on me. Who's to say he didn't play the banjo when singing the Music of Ainur?
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Mar 24, 2020 16:36:17 GMT -6
Dropping the sword restriction would make sense, although magic-users would still have lousy combat abilities. The Complete Warlock rpg got around it by allowing magic-users to wield magic swords, but not real ones. I think the writers were thinking of Gandalf wielding Glamdring. I can't see Gandalf playing the banjo either. He'd probably pick bass guitar.
|
|
|
Post by doublejig2 on Mar 24, 2020 21:24:25 GMT -6
I dunno. When I think about clerics I can see Gandalf as one somewhat because JRRT imagined him and the others as a kind of holy spirit. When I think of bards I think of music, and I don't see Gandalf playing a banjo and singing about the First Age. In other words, the mechanic of the bard may be okay but for me the feel isn't. I'll have to ponder further, however, as this is the first time I've seen such a suggestion. Maybe with time it will grow on me. Who's to say he didn't play the banjo when singing the Music of Ainur? And with the rise of the forces of evil, then Dueling Banjos. Reminds of the ill fated battle of songs between Sauron versus Finrod!
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Apr 9, 2020 14:17:49 GMT -6
One of the house rules I thought about but never tried, mainly because my players hated bards, was that 2E bards could only cast spells from the illusion and enchantment schools of magic. Bards casting fireball never seemed right for me. If you emphasize the loremaster role and ignore the musical role, the bard would work well for Middle-earth.
Of course, bardic music was quite powerful in Middle-earth, especially in the First Age. The tale of Beren and Luthien has several examples of that.
|
|
|
Post by doublejig2 on Apr 11, 2020 15:51:21 GMT -6
In extending these Istari to the prime material perhaps one could reveal Peter Fenlon's ICE bibliography to all. Was it in the back of Campaign Law 1e or one of the MERP supplements? Well, then I for one, would sure would enjoy seeing the reading list again. I'm not sure how long it was or what topics it collected titles from.
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Apr 11, 2020 16:33:45 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by doublejig2 on Apr 11, 2020 16:42:22 GMT -6
I saw that one but it's not a bibliography general to world builders and GMs change management in a campaign or both. The list I'm thinking of has a language theory book, some anthropology text(s) and 10 or 15 others like an appendix N but not so many fantasy titles. It was found in the back of one or more products...
|
|
|
Post by cometaryorbit on Apr 11, 2020 23:17:44 GMT -6
If I had the Istari written down in OD&D stats, I would probably see it in Suppl IV style rather than as a classic class.
I agree. Gandalf would probably have mid-level magic user abilities (at least enough to cast Lightning Bolt and Fireball) and some fighter ability (to use a sword). He would need some healing ability, at least something like a Remove Curse or Cure Disease (for Theoden).
On the other hand, the druid spell Fire Seeds from AD&D and later editions seems directly derived from Gandalf's pinecone fire trick against the Goblins and Wargs in The Hobbit, so his fire and lightning magic might be druidic in nature rather than magic-user.
Either way, he'd probably be an unique "hero" level being with low-level fighter ability and mid-level spellcasting ability, maybe an unique healing power or two depending on what spellcasting class you gave him, and more hit points than his class abilities would suggest (to be a 50/50 match against a Balrog or Type VI Demon).
Saruman would be vaguely similar, but he'd definitely use Magic-user spellcasting - more focused on charm, transformation, and divination type effects and alchemy - compelling voice, improving the Uruk-hai, Ring-lore, making the "fire of Orthanc" blasting substance used against Helm's Deep.
Radagast would absolutely use druid spellcasting, but more focused on animal and plant spells rather than fire/lightning.
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Feb 28, 2023 15:00:38 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by raymond on Mar 2, 2023 14:54:18 GMT -6
This OD&D/AD&D-era article says Gandalf would need to be a 5th level magic-user at a minimum. forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/gandalf-was-a-5th-level-magic-user-revisited.778850/There are no stats provided. GANDALF THE GREY IN MERP Hits: 200 Melee OB: 140 Missile OB: 15 AT: R. Leather (-120) MERP Profession: Mage. MERP Stats: ST 96; AG 99; CO l02; IG ll0; IT 101 ; PR 105. GANDALF THE GREY IN LOR LOR Profession: Bard. LOR Stats: Strength 6, Agility 8, Intelligence I 2, Movement 7, Defense 9, Melee OB IO, Missile OB 2, General 7, Subterfuge 5, Perception 12, Magical I 0, Endurance 200. LOR Powers: Gandalf the Grey receives a +3 bonus when performing any action requiring persuasion, conversation, or sympathy. LOR Spells: All. LOR Experience Points: 450,000. GANDALF THE w HITE IN MERP Hits: 200 Melee OB: 180 Missile OB: 1 S AT: R. Leather (-I20) Hits: 300 Melee OB: 220 Missile OB: IS AT: Plate (-ISO)* MERP Profession: Mage. MERP Stats: ST 96; AG 99; CO I02; IG I IO; IT IOI; PR IOS. GANDALF THE WHITE IN LOR LOR Profession: Bard. LOR Stats: Strength 7, Agility 8, Intelligence I 4, Movement 7, Defense 9, Mclee OB I 2, Missile OB 2, General I 0, Subterfuge S, Perception I 2, Magical 12, Endurance 300. LOR Powers: Gandalf the White receives a +4 bonus when performing any action requiring conversation, persuasion, or sympathy. LOR Spells: All. LOR Experience Points: S60,000. I didn't paste in the skills listed in the MERP (item number 2006) "Peoples - Valar and Maiar - The Immortal Powers" product.
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Mar 2, 2023 16:36:31 GMT -6
Yes, Gandalf was definitely a mage in MERP. LOR didn't have mages or animists, so he became a bard there. MERP had a lot of high-level characters, especially if they appeared in the books. Aragorn was level 36. Legolas, Gimli, and the Hobbits were about level 8-9. Here are the writeups of the Fellowship as they appeared in White Dwarf #53. Note that Gandalf is a cleric in this version. I actually like this take.
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Mar 5, 2023 16:45:55 GMT -6
That’s White Dwarf #38, I believe.
I’ve used that dungeon multiple times. When statting up the characters for one-time use, you don’t have to abide by class strictures, just give them the abilities and spells that make most sense. I mostly treat Gandalf as a Magic-User (as I said above), whereas Aragorn and Frodo function well as Clerics.
|
|
|
Post by tkdco2 on Mar 5, 2023 20:17:47 GMT -6
I can see Aragorn as a cleric, but why Frodo?
|
|
|
Post by doublejig2 on Mar 5, 2023 21:06:07 GMT -6
Frodo lives! Also, he achieved growth without drinking the entdraught like the Took and the Brandybuck. Even the corrupted Saruman now known as Sharkey noted the change.
|
|
|
Post by Falconer on Mar 5, 2023 23:54:44 GMT -6
He seemed to have a penchant for calling upon Elbereth—and it working out pretty well for him.
|
|