What's Your Middle-earth Canon?

[tkdco2]

When I say canon, I include what you consider official, both in the literature and in the game. So for literature, The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are canon, as is The Silmarillion as published. I know about the later writings, especially the issue with Gil-Galad's parentage, but I like it just the way it was done in the published Silmarillion. It makes more sense (at least to me) that Gil-Galad comes from the House of Fingolfin rather than the House of Finarfin. Otherwise Elrond would have had a stronger claim to kingship. Likewise, I like keeping Orodreth as Finarfin's son instead of his grandson.

In the game, I use MERP's default setting. I originally kept my half-elven character's parentage obscure, but I decided that since there were only three unions between Men and Elves*, I made him Elrond's youngest child. I would have explained his absence from LOTR by having his fate unknown, but he fell in battle in my last game with him** anyway. As his death took place centuries before the events of The Hobbit and LOTR, his absence would not present any continuity errors. My current game takes place a few decades later, with my characters' children taking center stage.

* I broke this rule anyway, when the Dunadan ranger married the Sindar animist. Of course, their son became a bard.

** Actually, I played him once more in a "flashback" game. He saved the life of the Warden of Minas Ithil's Palantir and eventually married her. That would explain how he ended up with two sons.

So what's in your canon?

[doublejig2]

Mar 19, 2020 20:46:28 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

So for literature, The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are canon, as is The Silmarillion as published. 

So what's in your canon?

These are the only ones I've read, and they are awesome... cannon ball!

[Punkrabbitt]

The Same: Hobbit, LotR trilogy, Silmarillion. None of the movie stuff, either o.0

[Vile Traveller]

I disliked the Silmarillion intensely when I read it, but now that I have lower levels of hormones coursing through my veins maybe I should give it another try. Otherwise LotR, plus The Hobbit at a pinch (but they're orcs, not goblins).

[Deleted]

I like the way the setting is worked out in MERP, as to the wider backstory, I've tended not to modify much; I don't know my Tolkien so well as that I could aspire to do that without difficulty, and I honestly didn't think it mattered to the players, back in the day. Plus, I loved some of the MERP material: Angmar, Ardor, and especially this one - tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Northern_Waste. So, I feel at home in the setting as written. I like that it's not Tolkine BTB, but its own thing.

[Vile Traveller]

I liked the "alternate era" options in some of the MERP books. Mos of them were not set during the War of the Ring. And you can easily string them together without worrying about aligning the timeline, just run a second age Cardolan with a fourth age Angmar!

[Finarvyn]

I think that my "canon" Middle-earth has a couple of layers.

Primary would be Hobbit and LotR, of course.

Secondary would be some MERP stuff (I really like the Lords of Middle-earth books) and Silmarillion and the Peter Jackson movies. And bits and pieces of the Letters and HoMe as I think of it. Basically, anything else.

[tkdco2]

I loved the Silmarillion. I was 13 or 14 when I first read it, and it transformed the way I saw the world. I even wanted to be an elf for the longest time, which is why most of my characters are elves or half-elves.

But for all my complaints about Jackson's adaptations of the books, I don't run my games in a way that evokes the Middle-earth vibe. My games are more earthy and have more shades of gray. Then again, my games are not set during the events of the novels, so I have a bit of leeway.

EDIT: I ought to clarify my position on canon. I have gone on record stating that canon is overrated, and the only canon in the campaign is what happens at the gaming table. So as far as I'm concerned, there are no right or wrong answers here. We all have different needs, and we should adapt our games to suit them.

[jeffb]

Books are books. Games are games.

For games, Canon be d**ned. I use what I want and may alter things. I always set my games in the early to middle 3rd Age- ala MERP. I allow some "lite" spellcasting.

That said, I'd be pretty miffed if a new Middle Earth Game came out and utilized PJ's canon instead of The Good Professor's. Not because it's bad*, simply because it's not true to the source material. Producers of product should remain true to the canon. GMs need no such restrictions.


* In the case of the Hobbit movies, it *is* bad too- but that's not the main issue.

[Red Baron]

Farmer Giles of Ham feels more like The Hobbit to me than any of Tolkien's "official" Middle Earth books do. Chrysophylax is a wonderfully depicted dragon. Caudimordax reminds me of the magic swords Bilbo finds in the trolls' treasure cave.

I also like The Fellowship of the Ring up through Moria and Boromir's death. After that point, the LOTR loses the episodic, fairy-tale, S&S, children's story tone and become more like epic fantasy.

[Falconer]

I dunno, I own and read d**ned near everything Tolkien wrote, and it’s all part of the canon, to me. The most important books for me would easily be:

FIRST AGE
The Book of Lost Tales
The Lays of Beleriand
The Children of Húrin

SECOND AGE
Sauron Defeated

THIRD AGE
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings

ALL AGES

Unfinished Tales

I like the ICE take on the world, but it’s totally the opposite of defining a canon, it’s all about the totality of it and finding cool stuff all over the map. However, for fun, at one point I made a list of sixteen of the largest books (omitting a number of Gondor-centered releases I don’t care so much about):

1. Angmar
2. Mirkwood
3. Middle-earth Role Playing
4. Moria
5. Arnor
6. Elves
7. Minas Tirith
8. Creatures of Middle-earth
9. Treasures of Middle-earth
10. Gorgoroth
11. The Grey Mountains
12. Northwestern Middle-earth Gazetteer
13. Palantír Quest
14. Dol Guldur
15. The Shire
16. The Northern Waste

I imagined it might be fun to collect these and get them rebound in matching leather.

[doublejig2]

I particularly like Brigands of Mirkwood and several of the other adventurers. The bandit town in the ravines - very cool.

[tkdco2]

I was going to run a game set in Minas Ithil tonight, but one of the players had technical issues. We'll try it again soon.

[Falconer]

Harad awesomeness:

1. The Court of Ardor
2. Far Harad
3. Shadow in the South
4. Greater Harad
5. Nazgûl’s Citadel

Other particular favorites of mine:

1. Lórien and the Halls of the Elven Smiths
2. Dunland and the Southern Misty Mountains

[Falconer]

Mar 19, 2020 20:46:28 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

The Silmarillion as published. I know about the later writings, especially the issue with Gil-Galad's parentage, but I like it just the way it was done in the published Silmarillion. It makes more sense (at least to me) that Gil-Galad comes from the House of Fingolfin rather than the House of Finarfin. Otherwise Elrond would have had a stronger claim to kingship. Likewise, I like keeping Orodreth as Finarfin's son instead of his grandson.

The 1977 The Silmarillion is probably the single least-canonical book, for me personally. I’m not in the camp of those who hold that only JRRT’s final intent should be considered canonical; however, I do reject the “inventions” of Christopher and Guy Kay, which are present pretty much solely in the 1977 book. That said, Gil-galad’s parentage is not especially important to me.

[tetramorph]

Mar 20, 2020 15:09:15 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

Farmer Giles of Ham feels more like The Hobbit to me than any of Tolkien's "official" Middle Earth books do. Chrysophylax is a wonderfully depicted dragon. Caudimordax reminds me of the magic swords Bilbo finds in the trolls' treasure cave.

I also like The Fellowship of the Ring up through Moria and Boromir's death. After that point, the LOTR loses the episodic, fairy-tale, S&S, children's story tone and become more like epic fantasy.

I don't game in Middle Earth, but in terms of using Tolkien's material for my campaign world I agree with the Red Baron on this one.

The Hobbit, Farmer Giles of Ham, the Smith of Wooten Major are closer to the feel and style that I enjoy.

I love the Silmarillion and it forms one midrasnhic narrative of certain lawful types in my campaign world. It is not even the majority tale of most lawful, especially not the Church of Law, nor even of the surviving (now mortal) elves in my campaign. (Most of them are more like Anderson elves now.)

Hope I'm still on topic. Just felt inspired to join this conversation.

[tkdco2]

Mar 21, 2020 9:09:30 GMT -6 Falconer said:

Mar 19, 2020 20:46:28 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

The Silmarillion as published. I know about the later writings, especially the issue with Gil-Galad's parentage, but I like it just the way it was done in the published Silmarillion. It makes more sense (at least to me) that Gil-Galad comes from the House of Fingolfin rather than the House of Finarfin. Otherwise Elrond would have had a stronger claim to kingship. Likewise, I like keeping Orodreth as Finarfin's son instead of his grandson.

The 1977 The Silmarillion is probably the single least-canonical book, for me personally. I’m not in the camp of those who hold that only JRRT’s final intent should be considered canonical; however, I do reject the “inventions” of Christopher and Guy Kay, which are present pretty much solely in the 1977 book. That said, Gil-galad’s parentage is not especially important to me.

I just don't like having to make major changes to established stuffed. Do Gil-galad's and Orodreth's parentage matter in my campaign? No, but having to change my head canon doesn't sit well with me.

[tkdco2]

Surprise! There is no Middle-earth canon.

[doublejig2]

Ha ha aha!!! And there is the owl, pontificating on the middle earth modules... a direct hit.

[tkdco2]

The MERP modules are awesome. They expand the setting quite a bit. Theyu're useful even if you play a different system.

I'm glad I found that post. I don't like people who insist on there being only "one true way" of running a game. I hear many Forgotten Realms fans are like that. Fortunately, my players don't know the Realms too much, so I can run my FR games however I please.

Same thing goes with Middle-earth. While I doubt JRRT would approve of some elements in my campaign, I am free to make the setting my own.

[Finarvyn]

Apr 3, 2020 15:54:45 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I am free to make the setting my own.

I get that, but on the other hand it would make me a little happier to have one authority figure put everything in "proper" order and do away with the uncertainties. I own the entire 12-volume HoME set and probably will never have the motivation in my lifetime to read the whole thing, so it would be really nice if someone could say, "okay, so here are the official stories in which volumes, and here is the order to read them." Otherwise I look at thousands of pages of Middle-earth and have no idea where to go with it. And I find as I get older that I enjoy reading this stuff, but I seem to retain hardly any. Makes it really hard to gather a "big picture" for the whole thing.

Mar 20, 2020 19:17:49 GMT -6 Falconer said:

The most important books for me would easily be:

FIRST AGE
The Book of Lost Tales
The Lays of Beleriand
The Children of Húrin

SECOND AGE
Sauron Defeated

THIRD AGE
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings

ALL AGES
Unfinished Tales

So this has great value to me.

[geoffrey]

My own personal Middle-earth canon is idiosyncratic and internally inconsistent:

The Canon:

1. The Hobbit (1937 version)


Quasi-Canonical:

2. "The Quenta" (in The Shaping of Middle-Earth)
3. "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" (in The Shaping of Middle-Earth)
4. mithril
5. "Myths Transformed" (in Morgoth's Ring)

[tkdco2]

Apr 3, 2020 18:08:30 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

Apr 3, 2020 15:54:45 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

I am free to make the setting my own.

I get that, but on the other hand it would make me a little happier to have one authority figure put everything in "proper" order and do away with the uncertainties. I own the entire 12-volume HoME set and probably will never have the motivation in my lifetime to read the whole thing, so it would be really nice if someone could say, "okay, so here are the official stories in which volumes, and here is the order to read them." Otherwise I look at thousands of pages of Middle-earth and have no idea where to go with it. And I find as I get older that I enjoy reading this stuff, but I seem to retain hardly any. Makes it really hard to gather a "big picture" for the whole thing.

Mar 20, 2020 19:17:49 GMT -6 Falconer said:

The most important books for me would easily be:

FIRST AGE
The Book of Lost Tales
The Lays of Beleriand
The Children of Húrin

SECOND AGE
Sauron Defeated

THIRD AGE
The Hobbit
The Lord of the Rings

ALL AGES
Unfinished Tales

So this has great value to me.

From a DM's perspective, whatever MERP stuff I use is canon for the game. As a reader/fan, I don't even bother. I just enjoy the works. Still, my initial choices for what I consider to be canon stand. Granted, the MERP stuff most closely corresponds to the published Silmarillion because the game was published before the Histories anthology, but that just helps me keep things consistent.

[muddy]

Not exactly on topic, but "Tolkien, Author of the Century" is a good read and illuminating regarding the charge that Tolkien presents morality in black and white terms.

So, to bring things back around, it might be helpful with questions of alignment and moral issues/challenges within a compaign.

[tkdco2]

Like I said, there are more shades of gray in my campaign than in the books, but good and evil are still well defined. Most of my characters' indiscretions come from rashness rather than malice.

[tkdco2]

Apr 2, 2020 23:57:22 GMT -6 tkdco2 said:

Surprise! There is no Middle-earth canon.

Here's another article by the same author: Is your Canon on the loose?

[Deleted]

I often wonder at the revisions Tolkien would have made to his Legendarium if he'd lived longer. Christopher often mentioned that his dad was revising his views on certain key elements up until his final days. He was dissatisfied with many things that made it into LOTR and the Hobbit, and the version of the Simlarillion and other works we got may not have represented his full views on things. Alas, we'll never know. I will say that I appreciate the work Christopher did. "Children of Hurin" especially was beautifully presented and contained a lot of genuine Tolkien lore and writing.

[Otto Harkaman]

This isn't an answer to any of the posters above, just off the cuff my humble opinion.

I think the root is the Hobbit, LOTR is a continuation of the Hobbit, he later fit his other writings into the world of the Hobbit.

I think he was creative with his historic writings and research and started the Hobbit as a juvenile tale, which is based on Beowulf and Alfred the Great's fight with the Vikings in the 9th century.

The Necromancer is the first of the lords of evil, at the end of the Hobbit and into LOTR he developed into Sauron.
The Necromancer is Grendel from Beowulf

Grendel is feared by all in Heorot but Beowulf. A descendant of Cain, Grendel is described as "a creature of darkness, exiled from happiness and accursed of God, the destroyer and devourer of our human kind".

click to enlarge

The Mode and Meaning of 'Beowulf'
By Margaret E. Goldsmith

The Eye of Sauron <O> is the Eye of Odin.

Odin sacrificed his eye to drink from Mirmir's Well, also known as the Well of Urd.
Odin sacrificed an eye but gained a more sacred, divine level of wisdom in return.
Odin is the most prominent of the Norse gods worshiped by the Vikings.

Gandalf is also Odin

[Finarvyn]

Jun 8, 2020 6:42:36 GMT -6 Otto Harkaman said:

This isn't an answer to any of the posters above, just off the cuff my humble opinion.

I think the root is the Hobbit, LOTR is a continuation of the Hobbit, he later fit his other writings into the world of the Hobbit.

I'm pretty hazy on some of this, as it's been a long time since I read some of the history of Middle-earth, but I believe that pre-Hobbit was actually some of the tales of the "gnomes" (later became elves) and some of the stories from "Book of Lost Tales." My recollection is that this formed his base world years before The Hobbit was ever put together, and centered around some of his tales of Beren and Luthien (Tolkien and his wife). The Hobbit was written into the world and later the LotR was as well as the whole world grew in depth. I'm pretty sure BOLT actually came first, however.

Falconer or one of the other scholars can probably address this better than I can.

Your other speculation may be true, however. Tolkien was a fan of older Norse language and stories and that may have been built into his histories as well.

[Falconer]

Well, going by my “fundamentals” list, the written order is “fundamentally” as follows:

1. The Book of Lost Tales
2. The Lays of Beleriand
3. The Hobbit
4. Sauron Defeated [Númenor cycle]
   
5. The Lord of the Rings
6. The Children of Húrin
7. Unfinished Tales

There are many elements mentioned in The Hobbit which hark back to the earlier writings (which were unpublished at the time but definitely written). The swords from Gondolin refer to a story from The Book of Lost Tales. The Necromancer is from a story from The Lays of Beleriand. Of course he gained in significance and depth in the writing of The Lord of the Rings, but he was definitely already an established character before the writing of The Hobbit.

But it is also true that The Hobbit throws in “Norse” elements which were not present in Tolkien’s earlier writings, such as the Norse dwarf-names and Gandalf’s name, and Gandalf’s definitely obvious Odinic characterization, and Beorn (from Bödvar Bjarki).