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Post by creativehum on Mar 7, 2020 0:14:47 GMT -6
My first set of D&D was Holmes, so I'm digging into Delving Deeper with a newcomer's excitement. (What a lovely book!) And that means I have a few questions.
For Clerics: The rules say they start the game with a spell book with all the Cleric 1st Level spells. But a Cleric can't cast a spell until 2nd Level. Yes? That means he carries this spell book around with him in anticipation of eating the spells when he hits 2nd level?
This is not a knock on the game if this is the case, and I know I alter the details for my own world. (For example, I might play it that the Cleric goes out into the world with the ability to turn dead, but does not get his spell book until he reaches 2nd Level. But I want to understand the baseline of the rules as written first.
For Magic-Users: This class begins with ALL the 1st Level spells in his book? For some reason I had assumed that he would acquire a few spells and then be out in the world trying to find more first level spells.
Again, I know I can make it what I want. But what have been the experiences for people running OD&D and clones? Better a good dozen spells to kick off the game? Or to limit the first spells list a bit starting out in play? What kinds of fun are found either way?
For both Clerics and Magic-Users: The text says, "Magic-users and clerics begin play with a book of 1st level spells but must find, buy,
or research higher level spell books thereafter.
But on p. 11 of Volume 1, when introducing the Cleric class, the text says: "So long
as he adheres to his faith a cleric will gain access to spells of successive spell levels
as he advances in experience, and can devise spells of his own besides." Does this mean the Cleric automatically has new spells arrive in his book as he gains a level? Or does he need to seek out new spells to add to his book like the M-U?
Thanks!
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Post by talysman on Mar 7, 2020 10:20:25 GMT -6
A lot of that is going to depend on interpretation of the game background, not anything in the rules specifically. But here's one way to look at it.
Clerics: Have a book of daily religious meditations or inspirational stories/parables that they study. Cleric spells aren't going to be like magic-user spells, with recipes, symbols, and words of power, but more like prayers, or exhortations in the name of their faith. "O Lord, just as you protected Daniel in the lion's den, seal now the mouths of these raging beasts, and let not their claws tear our flesh!" Assume the 1st level cleric reads from this during rest breaks, and by the 2nd level, is holy enough to use their knowledge of mythology or hagiography to call for miracles. Clerics can always benefit from other books of faith, but have no need for additional books to unlock spells. They just get more holy and thus able to work greater miracles.
Magic-User: Delving Deeper matches the implications of Men & Magic in suggesting that all the 1st level spells on the list are common knowledge and would be in commonly available 1st level spell books. Custom 1st level spells and those of higher levels have to be acquired. You can change this to either randomly select M-U starting spells or adapt the Greyhawk supplement method of acquiring spells, or something else entirely.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 9, 2020 4:23:00 GMT -6
Welcome to these boards creativehum. Thanks for your interest in DD, and thanks talysman for the prompt answers  I'll assume from the words you posted that you are referring to DD4. My head has been in DD5 space for a few years, but I'll see what I can do for you... For Clerics: The rules say they start the game with a spell book with all the Cleric 1st Level spells. But a Cleric can't cast a spell until 2nd Level. Yes? That means he carries this spell book around with him in anticipation of eating the spells when he hits 2nd level? From memory the DD4 cleric's requirement for spell books was primarily a reflection of M&M p34 which says: "Characters who employ spells are assumed to acquire books contains the spells they can use, one book for each level". FWIW, EW (p2) also mentions that Druids can use magical items normally usable by clerics except for the items of a written nature (scrolls and books). I.e. clerical books are mentioned explicitly. DD4 does imply a 1st level cleric has a book a 1st level spells, but that doesn't mean he has to carry it around with him. It could be "awaiting his return" or whatever at his temple. Perhaps its a reward for completing his first mission? One interesting possibility of acquiring a spell book at 1st level is the temptation for a cleric to read a spell directly from his spell book, thus gaining the benefit of an early spell, but consuming it from his spell book like a scroll. Note, however, that not everyone subscribes to the notion of spell books as "collections of scrolls". DD5 is a bit more nuanced. It says: "A cleric is assumed to acquire spell books containing the spells he can cast" which more accurately reflects the original text, and leaves open the possibility a spell book is not acquired until it is usable. Nothing is implied about how a spell book is "acquired". For Magic-Users: This class begins with ALL the 1st Level spells in his book? For some reason I had assumed that he would acquire a few spells and then be out in the world trying to find more first level spells. Again, I know I can make it what I want. But what have been the experiences for people running OD&D and clones? Better a good dozen spells to kick off the game? Or to limit the first spells list a bit starting out in play? What kinds of fun are found either way? I believe the intent is that the spells listed by level are commonly known, so... yes; a 1st level M-U would begin with all the commonly known 1st-level spells in his 1st-level spell book. Again, there exists the possibility that the M-U could read spells directly from his spell book to increase his early "fire power" at the cost of having to reacquire the spell before he can memorise it again (if you like spell books as "collections of scrolls"). The notion of "spells known" (being a subset of the full list) isn't present in the 3LBBs, but followed soon after. FWIW, in my games I allow M-Us the same number of starting spells as their number of languages known due to intelligence, and determine these spells randomly (with duplicates becoming scrolls on hand). This seems to work well enough. I also allow M-Us to develop one new spell for free at each new experience level in order to encourage creativity. For both Clerics and Magic-Users: The text says, "Magic-users and clerics begin play with a book of 1st level spells but must find, buy, or research higher level spell books thereafter. But on p. 11 of Volume 1, when introducing the Cleric class, the text says: "So long as he adheres to his faith a cleric will gain access to spells of successive spell levels as he advances in experience, and can devise spells of his own besides." Does this mean the Cleric automatically has new spells arrive in his book as he gains a level? Or does he need to seek out new spells to add to his book like the M-U? The operating assumption is that there will be one spell book for each spell level. The words: "will gain access to spells of successive spell levels" are, I think, meant to imply that the player will somehow make this happen by whatever means are practicable in the campaign setting. Divine gift or award from within a friendly Order are plausible (and rather convenient!) options. Researching, buying or looting are other equally valid options. Vanquished foes are a likely source of new spells for M-Us, but not so much for clerics (who can't do much with the chaotic spells). Either way, it's up to you. Hope that helps some |
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Post by creativehum on Mar 9, 2020 16:53:28 GMT -6
Nothing is implied about how a spell book is "acquired". I think something that I need to keep in mind about the OD&D/DD rules is that the concept quoted above allows (on purpose) a great deal of leeway for the GM to make up the setting details he wants for his campaign. Other notions in the game work the same way, of course. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 9, 2020 18:40:54 GMT -6
Nothing is implied about how a spell book is "acquired". I think something that I need to keep in mind about the OD&D/DD rules is that the concept quoted above allows (on purpose) a great deal of leeway for the GM to make up the setting details he wants for his campaign. These "gaps" are where referees can make their game different from others. I like the idea of clerics having "holy books" which are the functional equivalent of magic-users' spell books, but don't actually contain "spells" as such (hence no clerical spell scrolls). You'd expect clerics to set aside time to study their religious texts, and devout study and prayer seems as good a way as any of "recharging" spells. In My Game World clerics are awarded these by their church or temple when the time comes, i.e. when they get access to another level of spells. Like Holmes magic books, these are too big and delicate and precious to take on adventures. Magic-users In My Game World belong to colleges, who provide them with new spell books as they level up (but only with some spells, as per the Holmes spell acquisition table). They can fill in blank pages any way they want, as long as they don't exceed their INT limit. They are expected to share "found" spells with their college, but not their own original spells - they can sell or licence them if the college is willing to buy, of course. Some crazy wizards never joined a college, or got kicked out when they got too crazy, so they have to find all their spells on their own. |
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Post by creativehum on Mar 24, 2020 20:44:52 GMT -6
Tomorrow night I'll be staring my Delving Deeper campaign, using the setting of Dolmenwood as the backdrop. (I'm adding Barrowmaze to the bogs of the magic-haunted forest as well.) Very excited!
None of my players have played any early D&D, and really only know 5th edition as far as I know. I've decided not to dump a lot of rules or information on them. They won't have rule books and I'll hand out rules as needed or as they ask.
One thing I want to do is use as much fiction-loaded language as possible rather than making anything feel "generic."
With that in mind I have renamed and edited down the spell descriptions they'll be looking at when they first scan first level spell lists. Also, a few M-U spells are altered due the nature of Dolmenwood as a setting.
Clericical Mediations of the First Order
God’s Breath Reveals: The cleric can sense the presence of any enchantment on a person, place, or object within range and sight.
The Grace of the Devoted: After one minute of prayer the cleric can restore hit points to a creature or himself.
He Reveals What is Hidden: The cleric can sense the presence of any enchanted, conjured, supernatural, or undead creature, as well as any curse or malicious enchantment upon an object or place.
St. Eggort’s Taper: Causes an object or volume of space to be lit as if by torchlight.
St. Offrid’s Radiant Refusal: This spell prevents any enchanted or conjured creature from contacting the cleric. Furthermore, attacks made against the cleric by other chaotic types will be at a disadvantage with both weapons and magic.
The Purity of His Faith: Makes spoiled, poisoned, or contaminated food, drink, or Unholy water whole and suitable for consumption. Enough food for one dozen men or two weeks worth of rations are affected.
First Magnitude Magic-User Spells
All Magic-User can cast the spell Sense Magic at will, allowing them to recognize the presence of any enchantment on a person, place, or object within range and sight. This spell does not take up a slot of memoriazation.
The Apprentice's Radiant Shield: This spell prevents any enchanted or conjured creature from contacting the magic-user. Furthermore, attacks made against the magic-user by other chaotic types will be at a disadvantage for both melee and magic.
The Charm of the Sirens: Brings a single man-type completely under the influence of the magic-user.
Comprehend Languages: Enables the magic-user to read any language, cipher, message, map, or other written instruction apart from magical spells or command words.
Fog Wall: Conjures a small bank of thick fog, impenetrable to sight, about 60ft in length and 20ft deep.
Galzar’s Transformation: The magic-user can assume the appearance of any creature of the same general size and shape as himself.
Harrowgrove's Gate: Holds one door, gate, window, shutter, or other portal securely fast exactly as though it were locked, and only opened by the use of greater magic.
The Helping Ember: Causes an object or volume of space to be lit as if by torchlight.
The Medusa’s Mirror: The magic-user’s eyes become mirrored granting him immunity to dazzling and gaze attacks without impairing his sight. Moreover, any gaze attack attempted within 30ft will be reflected back at the attacker exactly as if they had looked into a mirror.
The Sandman’s Early Arrival: Causes a number of people or creatures to fall into a fitful slumber.
The Violent Shades of the Rainbow: Several seeing creatures are rendered unconscious by a dazzling glare of clashing colors.
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Post by Punkrabbitt on Mar 25, 2020 1:54:57 GMT -6
Well done. This is as it should be. I didn't do this in my last campaign, but I did make every magic item unique. There was never a +1 sword, it was The Fury Of Sinjin or Glammerbang or whatever. Add a simple cosmetic yet useless effect and both fighters are convinced their magic sword is better than the other's.
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Post by doublejig2 on Mar 25, 2020 1:56:23 GMT -6
So true. Fighters must appeal to the better weapon, at least their belief of which is better - the proof is in the pudding/slaying but the dm's evocative descriptions for better or worse lend the role playing material!  |
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