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Post by countingwizard on Mar 4, 2020 20:33:13 GMT -6
Moderator Note: Split off from here: odd74.proboards.com/post/225860/threadRandom thought which has just occurred to me: why do we add north points to dungeon maps? I always describe in terms of left and right, as most of the time (all the time?) characters have no idea which direction is north. Dungeon north is for the referee, not the players.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 5, 2020 4:42:28 GMT -6
Yes, but why does the referee need to know?
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Post by Zenopus on Mar 5, 2020 5:35:47 GMT -6
I don't think you need to provide compass directions in the key for a simple dungeon. My early dungeon maps didn't use them ( examples), when the key just had a monster and a treasure in a room. Although I think during play I would instinctively use them when describing the directions. But once you have elements that interact with particular walls or doors of a room, it's a lot easier to convey this information to the DM which one is being referred to if you use a compass, for example: "Set into the stone of the west wall is a bronze mask, about the size of a manhole cover". I could see describing this information to the players without using compass points ("On the wall to your left is a bronze mask..."). But in the key, how would you describe this succinctly without compass points when the are three doors that enter the room? One way would be to indicate the position of everything in the room(s) on the map itself, but that would require a more detailed map. |
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Post by delta on Mar 5, 2020 8:58:58 GMT -6
Possibly just habit, but; I think it's much easier for me to describe things with a fixed perspective, versus having to mentally rotate things all the time before describing them. I think I'd be much more likely to make mistakes/miscommunicate to the players and have to fix things doing it that way. I don't mind that it gives a little boost to the players' map-making accuracy.
Personally, I get a bit irritated if published products don't have compass roses on all the maps, and I go through assiduously and add them. Without that I'm really prone to mixing up east/west when things get fast-paced and heated.
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Post by countingwizard on Mar 5, 2020 9:59:28 GMT -6
I think the best justification for why a referee should utilize dungeon north is the same justification for giving actual exact measurements. The referee is communicating to one or more players the nature of an environment. If you do not describe this environment in relation to a static universal, you are going to have to describe things in terms of a variable (i.e. compare it to something else). For example, if I do not utilize dungeon north, I will have to explain it from the perspective of the player position relative to the way they enter the new area. This can be challenging for me the referee if I need to somehow show a visual for the shape of the room (which I prefer to do). Which side should be up? That requires translating from the original map. I'm already juggling a few dozen other things, the least of which is 10 people telling me different things they want to do. The trade off in being vague with direction is not worth the cost for what it adds to the game. Except when the players find themselves in a brand new location, having entered via teleport or trap without knowing any direction. At that point I designate a random new dungeon north until players can figure out where they are by making their way back to a mapped area and re-orient themselves.
The reason we use exact measurements is the same. I could go the entire game describing halls and spaces in relative terms. Its large. Its very large. Its cramped. Etc. Unless the player can read my mind though, they have no idea what "large" even means. "Large" compared to what? So then I would have to start describing things in terms of things they have already encountered. The hallway you are in is twice as large than the one you entered. The room before you is smaller than the previous two. Not using exact measurements makes it impossible to map; a key component of classic play.
By making things unclear and not specific or exact, you are introducing communication errors. These are not desirable. You want the players to understand what you imagine and envision in as much detail, with as few words, as possible. The difficulty of interpreting poor communication is frustrating, not rewarding. The source of obstacles should be within the dungeon, not coming from the referee. Referees should utilize any technique that allows them to more clearly communicate with players. My argument is that dungeon north and exact measurements are critical to this goal.
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Post by derv on Mar 5, 2020 11:54:01 GMT -6
Just like the use of maps in the real world, a northerly bearing compass point is for orienteering your map.
A quick fact about the sport of orienteering is that the topo maps do not always contain a compass rose. In these cases the right edge of the map is considered to be oriented due north.
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Post by Red Baron on Mar 5, 2020 12:00:15 GMT -6
I have never played using compass points, but it seems that Gary, Rob, and company did.
It's easier to get lost and make mapping errors when you aren't using cardinal directions (which I like), but they probably make things easier to describe (which I like).
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Post by talysman on Mar 5, 2020 12:51:27 GMT -6
One possible reason: to orient the dungeon to the outside world. People usually use compass directions when travelling overland, and if the fantasy world has a sun that rises in the east and sets in the west, people are going to be able to navigate by compass directions anytime the sun is visible. Which means they may want to know where they are underground in relation to aboveground landmarks. Are these newly discovered stairs leading up going to emerge in the north tower of the ruins, or somewhere else? If we follow this extremely long tunnel and come out from a cave opening in the side of the hill, where are we in relation to the dungeon entrance, or the town we use as home base?
Even if you aren't giving map descriptions using compass directions, at some point, players are going to ask.
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Post by countingwizard on Mar 5, 2020 12:51:39 GMT -6
Just like the use of maps in the real world, a northerly bearing compass point is for orienteering your map. A quick fact about the sport of orienteering is that the topo maps do not always contain a compass rose. In these cases the right edge of the map is considered to be oriented due north. W-HAT?! That's crazy. I did not know that. I just assumed it's however the legend/title is oriented determines north. And I've seen a lot of historical topographic maps. |
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Post by derv on Mar 5, 2020 13:29:44 GMT -6
Historical maps may have longitude and latitude markings. That’s different. And if you’re using military maps that would be different again because they use grid north.
What I’m talking about is specifically maps designed for the sport of orienteering. If you don’t see a compass rose they are already oriented for magnetic north in most cases. You could put your compass along the right edge and rotate the map until it faces north and your map would be oriented in relation to the topography it represents.
If you’re using an old map you should check the date on it. Declination is changing a little each year.
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Post by countingwizard on Mar 5, 2020 13:48:21 GMT -6
Historical maps may have longitude and latitude markings. That’s different. And if you’re using military maps that would be different again because they use grid north. What I’m talking about is specifically maps designed for the sport of orienteering. If you don’t see a compass rose they are already oriented for magnetic north in most cases. You could put your compass along the right edge and rotate the map until it faces north and your map would be oriented in relation to the topography it represents. If you’re using an old map you should check the date on it. Declination is changing a little each year. That is cool. |
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Post by derv on Mar 5, 2020 14:42:22 GMT -6
I’m pecking at a phone here. Not my first or best choice . I don’t know why my kids prefer texting. I can’t even see the keys with out my cheaters.
My real point was that it’s a simple assumption to use that north is at the top of your paper when drawing a map.
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Post by asaki on Mar 6, 2020 8:16:41 GMT -6
For me, it's too confusing to try to picture which way the party is facing, and which direction is left/right, etc...plus, too many people have trouble mixing up left and right =)
They use compass directions in the play examples, so that's good enough for me. But I will use relative directions if it's simple enough.
(I feel like we just discussed this recently...)
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Post by clownboss on Mar 6, 2020 11:22:16 GMT -6
Talysman completely echoes my sentiments. The party will always be aware, consciously or not, where East and West are when they're walking outdoors. They will probably have a grasp of where the North is when they enter a dungeon, at least on an intuitive level.
Besides, a compass isn't expensive either and it weighs basically nothing.
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Post by grodog on Mar 6, 2020 17:40:48 GMT -6
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Post by countingwizard on Mar 6, 2020 18:10:44 GMT -6
Oh yeah. I forgot about that technique. I hadn't seen any of the original authors use it, but I've seen notation like that in how the early dungeoneering video games were developed. It looks kinda hard to use unless something is marked on the map at that point itself; like a symbol or such. While players are moving around, I would completely skip whats there if it's only indicated in the notes. Probably more useful for something where the symbol is shared, like a statue, trap, door, etc. Just have something off to the side with the reference for the coordinate and use that to specify that object's unique feature.
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 7, 2020 3:48:16 GMT -6
Just to qualify my original query (odd that it popped into my head after 37 years of gaming), I am a registered landscape architect and for the past 5 years since shifting from practice to teaching have been beating undergraduates about the head with north points and scale bars. I frustrate members of the public who ask me directions by giving them in terms of compass points. In other words, thinking of things in terms of north, south, east, and west is second nature to me. On reflection, now that I think on it it's odd that I should even think of the question. But here we are.
Now, all justifications for the possible usefulness of north points on dungeon maps aside, I suspect the main reason is the same reason a lot of other things made it onto gaming maps (like grid references drawn along the margins) - because they existed on real maps! That's my theory and I'm sticking to it. There is certainly no conceivable use for a grid-referenced dungeon map. How many dungeons have you come across where one level's down-stairs don't match the next level's up-stairs? Lots, in my case.It doesn't really matter in-game. Players are never that accurate at mapping, they inevitable get bits wrong (but don't care). I put compass roses on my dungeon maps because they look good, and they look incomplete without them. But if I am honest, in all of those 37 years I don't think I have used them in descriptions once. Wait, no, I did, I remember once a party found a magical lodestone thing that always pointed west, I used it then.
None of the above applies to the Wilderness, of course.
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Post by aldarron on Mar 7, 2020 6:19:07 GMT -6
Yes, but why does the referee need to know? Exits, as in where they might come out and what is above and below the adventurers |
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Post by gemini476 on Mar 7, 2020 6:41:22 GMT -6
A compass rose also becomes extremely relevant as soon as you have multiple levels to the dungeon printed out on multiple sheets of paper. It's an easy way to keep everything in order and oriented in the correct way, especially if you're using non-obvious level exits (e.g. winding tunnels, spiral staircases, elevators). Even more so if the dungeon itself is made in certain easy-to-confuse ways, like the circular and radially symmetrical Expedition to the Barrier Peaks or Castle of the Mad Archmage where the stairs intentionally don't line up between floors.
This is especially useful if you have an upper works, where enterprising players might dig their way straight downwards at somewhat random coordinates! If the Wizard loads up on Disintegrates and goes ham on a particular spot of flooring, do they break through somewhere on a lower level? If a roof collapses, what parts of the floor above are ruined?
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Post by delta on Mar 7, 2020 9:37:37 GMT -6
I put compass roses on my dungeon maps because they look good, and they look incomplete without them. But if I am honest, in all of those 37 years I don't think I have used them in descriptions once. That's interesting. I'm pretty sure that's unusual, and most DMs would say they do usually give directions by compass orientation. It's done that way in the sample of play in the OD&D and AD&D books, for example. Would that be your expectation as well? |
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Post by grodog on Mar 7, 2020 13:03:49 GMT -6
It looks kinda hard to use unless something is marked on the map at that point itself; like a symbol or such. I haven’t asked Rob about how he used the coordinates grid, but I’ve always assumed it was for noting PC locations at the start/stop of play, and perhaps for changes to the dungeon effects that were not large enough to warrant drawing in the map—-stuff like corpses of slain monsters/PCs, small grates or holes in surfaces, or other small/unusual items of possible interest. Allan. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 7, 2020 17:13:48 GMT -6
I just don't see how anyone can tell which way is north in the Underworld.
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Post by talysman on Mar 7, 2020 20:43:41 GMT -6
I just don't see how anyone can tell which way is north in the Underworld. Memory? I mean, unless they make a lot of twisty turns or are running through a maze without time to reflect on where they are facing, the party should have a good chance of remembering which direction they are facing. And although it's not mentioned in OD&D, in AD&D dwarves have an innate sense of direction underground, so a lot of people play with that rule in OD&D as well. A lodestone could be useful, too. And there are magic options. Knowing which way is north when exploring underground is not guaranteed, but it's not impossible. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 7, 2020 20:59:14 GMT -6
Without a compass, you'd probably be challenged to know which way is north when walking around an unfamiliar city in broad daylight, let alone underground!
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Post by countingwizard on Mar 7, 2020 22:44:22 GMT -6
I just don't see how anyone can tell which way is north in the Underworld. They pick a direction, and that direction is north. Also it is very difficult for Dwarves to get lost while underground. |
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Post by Vile Traveller on Mar 8, 2020 2:16:01 GMT -6
Also it is very difficult for Dwarves to get lost while underground. There is nothing in OD&D or Holmes that explicitly says they have an in-built "north-sense", though. I just don't see how anyone can tell which way is north in the Underworld. They pick a direction, and that direction is north. I don't understand what you mean by that? With the pseudo-medieval level of technology I assume in OD&D I allow mariner's compasses but nothing that can easily be transported into the dungeon. Lodestones have appeared from time to time in my experience but they always felt a bit contrived, like, "It's easier if you know which way is north so here's a McGuffin to tell you which way is north". If players map using their memory of which direction is north based on their memory of the Wilderness above, that's up to them, but I still just describe things with left and right. Actually saying "north wall" to me means that I am confirming that that direction is north, which I'm not going to do. I know that there is a long tradition of describing the dungeon layout using compass directions, but I don't agree with it. It seems like metagaming, like telling the payers what percentage of hit points their opponent has remaining. By the way, I didn't make this clear before but I'm talking about dungeons we create ourselves, not published modules. I find north points extremely useful in the latter, because as I said I tend to think in terms of compass points and find it much easier to understand room descriptions using them. But that's just to help me (the referee) understand a published dungeon. When I describe what the players see I still use only left and right. |
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Post by derv on Mar 8, 2020 8:56:15 GMT -6
Think of it as a manner of giving directions. I believe that's where peoples comfort zone is. We've talked about this before on this board. In the Midwest I've found people generally use compass bearings and distance in miles to describe directions. On the East Coast a lot of times people will speak in terms of landmarks and time it takes. So something like, drive 5 minutes down this road until you come to the little brown church and hang a left. Part of the reason for this might be because the roads are not always laid out in true compass bearings- many of the roads wind back and forth because they are very old in origin. A road might be marked 552 E, but in reality be bearing more northerly. It's weird at times. In the Midwest the surveys were done based on longitude/latitude lines and roads actually run true (until you reach a point of correction in the survey because, well, the Earth is round).
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Post by talysman on Mar 8, 2020 13:09:47 GMT -6
Without a compass, you'd probably be challenged to know which way is north when walking around an unfamiliar city in broad daylight, let alone underground! In broad daylight? Definitely not, unless it's close to noon and didn't see where the sun was earlier that day. Or if it's overcast and I'm on some really twisty roads, like in a typical suburb with cul-de-sacs and circles. That's not guesswork. I've been in unfamiliar cities before. Had layovers on bus trips in Salt Lake City and Buffalo on separate occasions, for example, took a little walk to look at buildings. I did not get lost. And I don't even consider myself as having an above-average sense of direction. Actually knowing which direction is true north is not the issue, though. Remembering which direction you were heading originally, for example as you exit a building in an unfamiliar city or enter a building/dungeon with lots of corridors, is what's important. In cities with straight streets, or in the typical dungeon corridor arrangement, it's not that hard to keep track of facing. Curves and twists, or moving in large open caverns, would be harder. I got lost in my own city once, but it was at night, with no visible moon, and I was on typical suburb sidestreets that changed direction. Edit to Add: Looking more closely at derv's comment, this may have something to do with the east/west thing. I grew up in the Midwest and now live in the Sacramento area, which has a downtown grid and straight major roads outside downtown. You don't lose track of direction in Sacramento unless you get off into the side streets in the suburbs. Same is true of SF Bay Area, Portland area, or even back east in DC, central Boston, or New York City, which are other places I've visited and walked. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Mar 8, 2020 16:13:11 GMT -6
Take a look at some old cities on Google maps. E.g., Paris, Rome, London.
You'd be hard pressed to find: orthogonal grids, 90 degree corners, roads aligned to compass headings, or even straight pieces of road. Basically, they're mazes.
I'd hazard that most medieval worlds would be more like these places than Manhattan.
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Post by talysman on Mar 8, 2020 16:27:46 GMT -6
Take a look at some old cities on Google maps. E.g., Paris, Rome, London. You'd be hard pressed to find: orthogonal grids, 90 degree corners, roads aligned to compass headings, or even straight pieces of road. Basically, they're mazes. I'd hazard that most medieval worlds would be more like these places than Manhattan. That's something to take into account when running city adventures. Although I'd argue old-world street layout doesn't make people forget which direction they are facing, but which route to take to get to where you need to be. But we're talking about dungeons, which frequently use 90 degree corners, corridors aligned to compass headings, straight corridors... and adventuring parties are moving slowly and mapping. Under those circumstances, barring the occasional map trick, it would be very hard to forget which direction you are facing. |
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