What map tricks do you think are fair and/or enjoyable?

[countingwizard]

The earliest dungeons utilized various tricks and techniques with the design of the map in order to fool players or provide an obstacle to overcome.

On one hand, when I create my dungeons I want to players to be able to clearly understand the information I am conveying so that there isn't any miscommunication about what they see and experience, and so that they have a stronger sense of being in the game world. But I would like to get other people's perspectives on what they consider unfair, not fun, not novel, and just an impediment to playing the game at all.

So below is a list of many of the different techniques I've found to confuse and confound mappers in the game:

• Secret Doors
• Secret Doors with two possible ways to open (pushing on left side of door opens a passage to the left but blocks an unseen passage to the right)
• False Doors
• Slanted hallways that do not match evenly with the corners
• Sloping Passages that descend or ascend unnoticeably to a different level
• Rotating Rooms
• Random Teleport Traps
• Steps leading to a slanting passage so that the player actually stays on the same level.
• Dead ends; usually as part of a maze of corridors.
• Illusion areas which hide true exits and show false exits.
• Doors (and secret doors) which only open from one side (e.g. one-way trip); used to funnel people deeper or further away from an area so they have to find alternative routes.
• Natural passages and caverns (super irregular in shape and impossible to accurately map without seeing a drawing of it).
• Rooms or passages whose width is off by 1 or 2 feet, so that the mapper is forced to eyeball how to draw it on graph paper, potentially staggering the entire dungeon offset with the grid (e.g. a room that is 8x10 vs 10x10 or 5x10)
• Spaces that defy the laws of physics, taking up more or less space than they actually occupy, or simultaneously existing in two places at once (e.g. a roofless room in the dungeon which opens up into a forest 500 miles away in the world, but is simultaneously still in the dungeon)
• Doors that just open up into random locations in the dungeon; kinda like a teleport room, but where just the door connects the two spaces.
• Areas that obscure via darkness or fog the actual layout and contents of a space.
• Magical trap that disorients the entire party so that they no longer know what direction they were facing
• Symmetrical room layouts paired with the above disorienting trap, so that players can't see any obvious signs of what direction they came from.
• Rotator/Teleportation tricks that don't alert the player that something has occurred
• Stairs that go up/down more than one level
• Multiple doors (or corridors) to choose from; sometimes coupled with a path that leads to a room with even more doors/corridors to choose.

Edit: If you have additional ideas to add to this list, that would also be appreciated.

[derv]

I like mazes. If you spread the layout enough it can take the players some time to realize they’re in a maze. Tie in with this one way doors and it funnels them deeper into the maze. I also like false doors. I’ll sometimes put them at the top or bottom of stairwells- a dead end that gives the appearance of getting somewhere.

[flightcommander]

I have a hunch that some of these things were fun when the entire concept of paper-and-pencil, table-top "dungeon crawling" was relatively new. I certainly concocted plenty of tricksy dungeons as a young DM. These days, I personally find a lot of the "make mapping difficult" techniques to be an energy drain on player enthusiasm and attention. Lots of people have busy lives and demanding jobs and it doesn't feel right to pull some sleight-of-hand to intentionally hose their map. Of the "tricks" listed above I generally limit myself to secret doors, areas that are obscured for some reason, and multi-level stairs, and all of these in moderation.

That being said! The occasional map trick can be fun. I'm thinking here of say an obvious "magic portal" — the players have the choice to go through, and won't know where they'll end up — or a space that's been deeply flooded, making it difficult to cross or explore without finding some way to drain it, which is naturally to be found elsewhere in the dungeon.

[waysoftheearth]

The most obvious challenge (imho) is simply darkness. It's tough to map what you can't see!

Although not explicit in the 3LBBs, I kinda like the notion that the dungeon topology becomes increasingly challenging with depth. This could be as basic as consciously including more challenging dungeon-design features as you go downward.

In terms of darkness, this might be something like:
-- The upper works are drenched in natural light,
-- DL1 might admit only patches of light "from above" through grates or crevices,
-- DL2 might be infrequently/dimly illuminated by scattered bioluminescent moss or ants,
-- DL3 might be properly/naturally dark,
-- Deeper levels might have increasing frequency and/or increasingly potent grades magical darkness.

All just thoughts to kick around...

[countingwizard]

I hate the idea of magical darkness as something that overrides continual light or natural/spell infravision. Particularly when it comes in shapes like a sphere. When I see powers or dungeon features that utilize darkness, I switch it out for a thick unnatural fog that does not allow you to see farther than the tip of your nose. Use of very bright light in such a fog will cause blindness for several rounds even after exiting the fog. So when something like a demon wanders by in a sphere of darkness, I describe it as a thick cloud of billowing smoke or fog that appears to be rolling towards or away from the party. Alternatively, I cause progressive dimming of magical light sources, and immediate snuffing out of natural light sources.

The current dungeon I'm building uses progressively trickier tricks and traps the further in. Nothing as devious as Tomb of Horrors. And I'm working on avoiding things that cause cumulative map errors to mislead, and things that would make players crumple up their map (like I tend to do if mapping gets f**ked as a player). I think what I may have to do is build something in to notify players that they may want to start a new map until they can decide where things line up again so they can consolidate.

[DungeonDevil]

I like the way the dungeons were modelled in FFC: corridors were at weird angles and not orthogonal, conforming to the lines of quadrille paper. That by itself would give mappers a headache.

[grodog]

I like them all =)

Allan.

[tetramorph]

I am not a big fan of tricks that mess up mapping unless it is clearly a clue to something bigger that they can go back and fix later.

I prefer mapping as a way of discovering rather than as a way of knowing where you are. In general, unless it is some mega dungeon (not a big fan of that either) I assume characters can remember to get out the way they came. But careful mapping could reveal that there must be some undiscovered space and then they might start looking for secret doors etc.

That is what I like both as a player and a ref.

[derv]

You know, I've never thought much about how the whole "mapping" idea started. It wouldn't surprise me that it just developed out of play. I know it's a function that is often associated with Chainmail's mine/countermine methods. Perhaps that's the seed of the idea. Could it be a simple matter of the player's doing it, not for ease of escape or finding a way out, but as a way to more quickly get in and go deeper on following visits at a later time? Basically, let's make a map to side step what the GM has previously prepared. So, maybe these things started with the player's wanting to screw over the GM, not the other way around.

In other words, the intent of tricks could have grown as a reaction or response to player's breezing through certain dungeon elements the second or third time around. Tricks are not a way of screwing with a mappers ability to map- they're a way of screwing with a player's ability to map accurately, thus screwing with their ability to blow through elements of a dungeon at a later time. It is at that point that the player's may discover, "wait, where in the Hill are we?".

I can see evasion, flight, pursuit, growing out of this sort of competitive play.

[derv]

Another one I like to throw in occasionally that you haven't listed is pit traps that drop down into a lower corridor.

Air shafts or wells are also difficult to map. Usually a mapper is going to have to make notations about there depth and later attempt to match them up with upper and lower levels, especially if it's a cavern with multiple shafts in different locations.

[Deleted]

I'm not a fan of tricks anymore as I've grown to dislike the idea of the cautious one-speed crawl that results from tricks and traps.

I think in terms of speed, areas where you need to be slow and cautious, others where you need to get a move on. I use terrain and traps to create this. Often pursuit by and of monsters means they have to traverse an area at a speed that doesn't suit them, cue saving throws

[Deleted]

I've never been able to figure out how to verbally describe dungeons in a way that renders them mappable! Obviously lots of people do it, but I always wind up just drawing out the maps...

[delta]

Feb 14, 2020 22:21:41 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

I hate the idea of magical darkness as something that overrides continual light or natural/spell infravision. Particularly when it comes in shapes like a sphere. When I see powers or dungeon features that utilize darkness, I switch it out for a thick unnatural fog that does not allow you to see farther than the tip of your nose. Use of very bright light in such a fog will cause blindness for several rounds even after exiting the fog. So when something like a demon wanders by in a sphere of darkness, I describe it as a thick cloud of billowing smoke or fog that appears to be rolling towards or away from the party. Alternatively, I cause progressive dimming of magical light sources, and immediate snuffing out of natural light sources.

Totally agree with the motivation here (agree that spherical magical darkness as a common thing is bleargh). In my game, I switched the "darkness" spell to be an instantaneous extinguish-all-lights-in-range magic. This makes it a useful tactic for creatures with infravision, and PC's wind up frantically trying to light up torches with flint-and-steel (well, while elves & dwarves hold off monsters). Our group's been very happy with it.

[Vile Traveller]

I was never really exposed to the Greyhawk-style maps (I had B2 in my boxed set), and when I first saw The Temple of the Frog in Blackmoor I wondered why Arneson hadn't just tilted his graph paper 45% degrees and made it easier for everyone. I have never had a group who enjoyed mapping as a puzzle-solving game in its own right, and players are usually careless enough to make plenty of mistakes without my help. Added to which I have been running games with the Games Workshop Dungeon Floorplans since the 1980s, so any player willing to pay attention should be able to make a pretty good map.

For me this mostly comes down to experience with players skipping 90% of referee preparation - I learned this lesson well playing 3LBB Traveller - so I don't put in secret dorrs or traps unless I think there's a good chance they will come into play. Too much hidden stuff leads to what the kids call "pixel-pregnant doging", apparently - spending forever searching every square inch of floor, wall, and ceiling just in case there is something to be found.

Don't get me wrong, this stuff is good - but only in small doses that surprise the players and build interest. Too much of a good thing is never a good thing.

[sonicracer100]

Yes! The occasional spinning room, slant, or teleporter. Not too much tho. All the time leaves players frustrated in my experience

[countingwizard]

Feb 17, 2020 23:43:49 GMT -6 delta said:

Feb 14, 2020 22:21:41 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

I hate the idea of magical darkness as something that overrides continual light or natural/spell infravision. Particularly when it comes in shapes like a sphere. When I see powers or dungeon features that utilize darkness, I switch it out for a thick unnatural fog that does not allow you to see farther than the tip of your nose. Use of very bright light in such a fog will cause blindness for several rounds even after exiting the fog. So when something like a demon wanders by in a sphere of darkness, I describe it as a thick cloud of billowing smoke or fog that appears to be rolling towards or away from the party. Alternatively, I cause progressive dimming of magical light sources, and immediate snuffing out of natural light sources.

Totally agree with the motivation here (agree that spherical magical darkness as a common thing is bleagh). In my game, I switched the "darkness" spell to be an instantaneous extinguish-all-lights-in-range magic. This makes it a useful tactic for creatures with infravision, and PC's wind up frantically try to light up torches with flint-and-steel (well, while elves & dwarves hold off monsters). Our group's been very happy with it.

Yeah. I alternate with it. I've had some good success using it with my mountain wraiths; which are incorporeal shadow ghosts with coal red eyes that sense and hunt the living within Dwarven Halls (lifted from Raymond Feist's Riftwar Saga). As soon as it picks up a player's trail, players sense some ill presence somewhere far in the distance, and from turn to turn it gets closer or further depending on their movement speed; until it's on them. Then their torches blow out, lantern flames extinguish, and magical light sources take a round or two to dim and then go dark; with coal red eyes lurking at the edge of what light they have left, the wraiths waiting for their chance to feed. Only light and magical weapons can harm them; and the light itself keeps them at bay. Any source of light within its range dies out; but players can still light a torch or oil, etc. it just dies out within a round or so.

[DungeonDevil]

False doors: they can huff and puff all they like, but they will never batter them down.
Doors which open onto deep pits or into rooms with floors many feet below the doorway. OOPS!
Teleportation rooms: tons of fun (for the DM)-- a headache for mappers.
Magic Mouths which spout false, misleading info, or which moan and groan or cackle madly whenever the party wants to sleep.
Long, winding dead-end passages requiring backtracking and loss of valuable time (burning up more torches, oil).

[DungeonDevil]

The "Dungeon of Arzaz" (in Dr. Holmes' Fantasy Role Playing Games) has corridors which are wind-tunnels, blowing out torches (and perhaps also lanterns, unless they are very secure), impeding forward movement.

[tetramorph]

No tricks?

Clearly some of you have never played in one of Bloodmaster’s dungeons.

Some of the most crazy fun I have ever had.

Just start with Tomb of the Sea Kings and go!

Don’t forget to thank me later.

[muddy]

Feb 16, 2020 8:32:16 GMT -6 derv said:

Could it be a simple matter of the player's doing it, not for ease of escape or finding a way out, but as a way to more quickly get in and go deeper on following visits at a later time? Basically, let's make a map to side step what the GM has previously prepared. So, maybe these things started with the player's wanting to screw over the GM, not the other way around.

Mapping wasn't about screwing anyone over*, it was both ease of escape AND ease of going deeper the next time around. Campaigns revolved around dungeon exploration, and most sessions involved entering the same dungeon over and over again. Sometimes for years. You wanted to get out and you wanted to be able to get back to the interesting place you weren't equipped to handle the last time. Finding stairs down to the next level wasn't always easy, sometimes it was its own sort of treasure, and the maps were necessary because it could get you there and you could end up dead if you weren't careful. Losing your map or getting lost was a big deal. And dungeons were in a sense safer than wilderness for lower level characters because the closest thing to a hard and fast rule was the deeper you go the more dangerous things got, whereas in the wilderness a first level party could encounter anything. So I don't think it is so much that the game has somehow grown beyond complex dungeons or that people are too busy now** so much as it is a different set of shared skills and expectations on the part of players and DM. Knowing how to map, knowing how to explain the location, knowing when and how to encourage players to move on, etc. And as some above suggested knowing how much of this sort of "spice" to include in the dungeon, which is in part relative to the experience of the players.

The idea for the DM was to create an environment rich with possibilities - of getting lost or surrounded, of finding easier ways to your objective, of treasures or interesting areas that might be missed... this time. All the while knowing that players may never encounter some things. The players in turn always knew that there was something they may have missed, and sometimes careful mapping revealed that.  Even when it didn't, maps gave players the opportunity to choose where they wanted to explore next time.

These things also encouraged a balanced party - dwarves for noting structural abnormalities, elves for finding secret doors, thieves for disarming traps. And they added a dimension to play other than "kill the monster."

*Maybe in Gygax's dungeon because he had a lot of experienced players.

** Of course, a DM may be too busy to build a giant dungeon, or players may meet so infrequently that the "next time" doesn't matter so much. But a four hour session is plenty of time to get a lot of exploring in if the DM is aware in advance of the latter sort of problem, and it gives the players some agency rather than being railroaded to a predetermined conclusion.

[Vile Traveller]

The main thing to remember is to use tricks only once (a bit like the glut of new monsters that used to appear in gaming magazines back then). Nothing worse than having a list of standard tricks and traps unless you crossed them off each time they occurred. I think the point is to introduce novelty, not to have players add yet another line to their standard search routine. Of course, from time to time you do have to repeat, or at least include a variation of a trick you have used before, otherwise players soon work out that you are using one-offs.

[OT]Actually I do that with dragons, too. They are rare enough that no two have to be the same. I treat the chromatic/ metallic types as just examples.[/OT]

[derv]

Feb 22, 2020 2:01:24 GMT -6 muddy said:

Mapping wasn't about screwing anyone over*, it was both ease of escape AND ease of going deeper the next time around.

Sometimes I'm dysphemistic in my word choices. Here I was attempting to offer another POV to the commonly expressed idea that tricks and traps are "unfair" or "not fun" and an antiquated manner of playing. Obviously only dastardly or backwards GM's would continue to use them.

The underworld should be a challenge that needs to be mapped.

When I was a teen there were these old abandoned psych wards out side of Philly. They're gone now- condos or something. They were originally built in the early 1900's, continuing to run until some time in the 80's. You'd go there at night for something to do and to creep your friends out- maybe drink a beer or two. There were tunnels with tons of graffiti- some weird sh*t was on those walls. The floors were often wet and muddy. You had to watch where you were going because there was a lot of broken glass. debris, and hypodermics laying around. You better have a good flashlight with fresh batteries. The buildings were condemned because of sewage leaks and asbestos. The roofs were leaking and the floors were rotten in places. And sometimes...there were others in the building, or so you thought. You'd run like hell because there were all kinds of stories floating around about the place- ghosts, paranormal activity, Satanists type stuff and that druggies would set up traps in rooms where they kept their stash. Of course this was private property and you could get arrested if the cops caught you. Ha-ha, that was some crazy times.

There were a number of places like this- shifting mental health policy and funding caused most of these facilities to close in or after the 70's.

[muddy]

Feb 22, 2020 2:18:22 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

I think the point is to introduce novelty, not to have players add yet another line to their standard search routine.

I think that is exactly right, a novel challenge.

derv said: I was attempting to offer another POV to the commonly expressed idea
that tricks and traps are "unfair" or "not fun" and an antiquated manner
of playing. Obviously only dastardly or backwards GM's would continue
to use them.

I think that is right, too.

[Punkrabbitt]

I think it boils down to whether it enhances the game or interferes with the game.

[countingwizard]

Are there any, that when encountered, cause you to stop caring about the game session and let other people drive the session?

[Red Baron]

Feb 15, 2020 17:46:51 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

I like the way the dungeons were modelled in FFC: corridors were at weird angles and not orthogonal, conforming to the lines of quadrille paper. That by itself would give mappers a headache.

It gives the referee a headache trying to describe

[countingwizard]

Feb 28, 2020 9:17:35 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

Feb 15, 2020 17:46:51 GMT -6 DungeonDevil said:

I like the way the dungeons were modelled in FFC: corridors were at weird angles and not orthogonal, conforming to the lines of quadrille paper. That by itself would give mappers a headache.

It gives the referee a headache trying to describe

Yeah, like how am I, the referee, supposed to say how long a hallway is without using a ruler to measure the distance myself.

[DungeonDevil]

Feb 28, 2020 10:00:56 GMT -6 countingwizard said:

Feb 28, 2020 9:17:35 GMT -6 Red Baron said:

It gives the referee a headache trying to describe

Yeah, like how am I, the referee, supposed to say how long a hallway is without using a ruler to measure the distance myself.

I've seen some dungeon maps (JG?) where dimensions of chambers and corridor lengths are given in feet. It's a nice courtesy for Refs if the map has such infos already there.