DREAMSCAPE:underworld™ - my next game

[Vile Traveller]

Some of you may be aware of my DREAMSCAPE:engine™ project, a percentile skill-based universal system based on the old Chaosium Worlds of Wonder boxed set. As I get closer to finishing off the BLUEHOLME™ Kickstarter rewards (only the Blueholme Brochure left to do), I'll be delving back into D:e. The basic principle behind D:e is to produce a series of stand-alone games and adventures using the core system, and the first one will be DREAMSCAPE:underworld™.

D:u is based entirely on Holmes. Remember geoffrey 's thread on Dragonsfoot about using Holmes Basic D&D as a complete game? Well, this is it. It doesn't use the OGL, or even the D&D system, but the entire game world is built only around the Blue Book. There are no classes, as it's skill-based, but there are 3 types of organisations which dominate adventurer backgrounds: the Thieves' Guilds, the Fighting Bands, and the Magician's Colleges. The only spells are the ones in the book, barring spell research. The only creatures are the ones in the book. The only magic items are the ones in the book (again, barring unique creations). Holmes is beautifully concise and well-rounded, as everyone here knows.

The reason I'm doing this is because I need to get over the writer's (and publisher's) hump of getting the first D:e book out there. A basic, simple, fantasy game fits the bill - and you don't get more basic and simple than Holmes.

EDIT: I've moved away from the percentile system and ability scores. The game is now probably closest to Advanced Fighting Fantasy, with just Stamina, Luck, and a bunch of Skills. There is more to it than this, but that is the core.

[captainjapan]

What is an AEON? Is it an acronym of some sort? You used to refer to AEONS.

[Vile Traveller]

Jan 27, 2020 22:54:38 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

What is an AEON? Is it an acronym of some sort? You used to refer to AEONS.

AEONS was my first working title, until I hit on the idea of using the AEON:something binomial system to refer both to the core mechanics (AEON) and the particular setting (something). As for AEON, specifically ... no, it's not an acronym. It's short, and it begins with "A" - and that's all there is to it!

EDIT: The title is now DREAMSCAPE:something.

[captainjapan]

I've been reading your posts at Dragonsfoot and Gringle's. You've been mulling this over for a little while, now. I think the "Worlds of Wonder" angle is probably the best approach. Do you mean to mine any Holmes lit for setting detail, or are you just using the implied milieu (Which is to say, Dungeons & Dragons.) of the basic set, as it stands?

Whatever you decide, don't let that cover art I saw go to waste.

[Vile Traveller]

Jan 28, 2020 1:36:08 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

Do you mean to mine any Holmes lit for setting detail, or are you just using the implied milieu (Which is to say, Dungeons & Dragons.) of the basic set, as it stands?

The latter. BLUEHOLME™ already tries to be all-inclusive of everything related to Holmes, with D:u I am taking a minimalist approach and really sticking only to the book itself. If anything, using BRP as a base makes Holmes as a standalone game even more feasible, as the d% skill system doesn't have the built-in advancement limitations of levels. I love Dr Holmes's choices of what to include - in terms of creatures, for example, most core types are catered for - giant rats on one end and dragons, giants, and purple worms at the other. The spells won't be a limitation, because without hit point inflation you don't need an increasing lethality curve.

I presume most people here are familiar with the original Basic Roleplaying system from Chaosium. Just in case, I'll try to summarise it here. You have the basic characteristics (abilities) of Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Size, Intelligence, Power, and Charisma. Most are self-explanatory, POW powers magic spells and defends against them. "Saving throws" usually use characteristics as a base. There are skills, not many, and advancement is primarily by improving those through experience or paying for training. Spells are learned if you can find a teacher, or get lucky with a dusty tome. Hit points are based on CON and SIZ, and don't change, so even a highly skilled character remains vulnerable - though better armour and magic (and shield skill) can do a lot to improve survival chances.

[Vile Traveller]

Speaking of spells, Holmes does present me with a bit of a conundrum. For 3rd-level PCs, the highest spell levels should be 1st for clerics and 2nd for magic-users. Holmes, however, lists 3rd-level magic-user spells, and even includes full descriptions for 2nd-level clerical spells. Should I then include those in D:u? I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

I probably won't. 3rd level is where magic-user spells get into fly, fire ball, and lightning bolt territory. 2nd level clerical spells not yet so serious (though hold person does give them their first offensive spell), but I like the idea of the Church being limited to just those eight minor miracles.

Spells are powered by POW in BRP, with each casting reducing the character's POW points by an appropriate amount. This works at the power level of Holmes, where casters don't have that many spells up their sleeves (they might have a whole bunch of scrolls up their sleeves, though). POW points can regenerate from 1 to full in 24 hours in BRP, but in D:u they regenerate through the time spent studying one's magic book for magic-users, or in prayer for clerics.

At this point I should note that I don't intend to completely bend the system to D&D. But there will, I hope, be a happy medium for me.

[Finarvyn]

I have always assumed that the higher spells were intended for those high-level NPC wizards. (That was usually my assumption in OD&D as well, where I cap characters around level 8 but there are stats for higher-level dudes.)

[captainjapan]

I've never played Runequest. I am interested to see a skill-based D&D. I have read that Dave Arneson was also experimenting with some of the concepts like pc training and dynamic ability scores. What if you went ahead and made everything percentile based, ability scores included? Is that a bridge too far?

It looks like Chaosium gave ceremonial(divine?) magic short shrift in the WoW version of Magic World, although they also put out a Magic World quickstart guide, in the 2000's, which I haven't seen.

J. Eric Holmes understood that the audience for his basic set would want to know that there were fireballs and lightning bolts in the game, even if they couldn't cast them at those low levels. He also included mummies and vampires, even though clerics couldn't turn them. If it were me, I would leave these things in the spirit that they were intended. However, if what you want to do is save yourself some work, you could eliminate the cleric class altogether. It's heretical in the context of D&D, but if you're just interested in Holmes as a model for how a beginner set should be structured, then you may safely omit them. They don't have counterparts in fantasy literature nearly as prominent as fighters and magic users. You could eliminate the thief, too, if you wanted. The overriding setting of Holmes basic is the dungeon, which has no historical counterpart.

It's too bad "Dungeonworld" was already taken, as a title. That would have been my choice

[Vile Traveller]

Jan 28, 2020 8:24:41 GMT -6 Finarvyn said:

I have always assumed that the higher spells were intended for those high-level NPC wizards.

There will be things like that, but only in terms of examples in the rules and later on in adventures. The rules really only deal with spells reasonably attainable by characters (although of course they can always do spell research). I intend higher-level magic to be generally one-off, only turning up with specific individuals in adventures.

Jan 28, 2020 11:47:59 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

What if you went ahead and made everything percentile based, ability scores included?

Actually, that's what Call of Cthulhu 7E did. I went back and forth on this for a long time, and I might still go there in the end. The benefit of the old 3-18 range is familiarity, but does that really matter for an entry-level game?

Jan 28, 2020 11:47:59 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

It looks like Chaosium gave ceremonial(divine?) magic short shrift in the WoW version of Magic World, although they also put out a Magic World quickstart guide, in the 2000's, which I haven't seen.

That's for a different game - their later, considerably more crunchy Magic World (kind of abandoned now) is actually Stormbringer 4E with the serial numbers filed off. A:u is meant to be a very simple game, going in the opposite direction to that taken by Mythras (which is a very good game in its own right). That's what I mean by "entry-level", A:u is an experiment in taking the original BRP system and running with it, even simplifying it in parts.

Jan 28, 2020 11:47:59 GMT -6 captainjapan said:

It's too bad "Dungeonworld" was already taken, as a title.

I know, though I actually like Underworld - it goes with the idea of the "Mythic Underworld" and the triad of Underworld, Wilderness, and Realm.

[Vile Traveller]

Okay, some more details: EDIT: This has been completely superseded.

Characteristics (Abilities in D&D)
As I mentioned, these are STR, DEX, CON, SIZ, INT, POW, and CHA. For humans the range is 3-18, but there is scope for significan variation in monsters, animals, and even other humanoid species. That's right, every creature has these stats. Certainly makes it easier to follow Holmes's exhortation to let players run characters of any species they want!

Attributes
Attributes are derived directly from characteristics. There are only two, hit points and damage bonus.

Hit points are simply the average of CON and SIZ. There are no hit locations like in RuneQuest, but there are effects if you are down to half your total or less. That's it. They don't go up no matter how experienced you become (unless your CON or SIZ increases somehow, which is unlikely). You don't die immediately at 0 hit points, but you will probably die soon without help - I am adapting the D&D 5E death saves here, though not as generously as in that game. There's natural healing (slow), medical treatment (difficult), and magical healing (be nice to those clerics).

Damage bonus is based on STR and SIZ. Unlike BRP, D:u will not have negative damage bonuses - they don't add much to the game and they complicate things. Also, BRP damage bonuses go from +1d4 to +1d6, and then by an additional d6 in leaps and bounds. D:u will stick with d4s for a smoother curve, and to force referees to carry a bag full of caltrops for their big monster's damage bonuses.

Skills
This is a roll-under percentile skill system, and anyone familiar with the D&D thieves' skills knows how they work. Steve Perrin adopted these rightout of D&D and into RuneQuest. There are no characteristic bonuses in D:u, so all skills have a standard base chance. Referees are free to vary this according to culture, but basic D:u is simple and doesn't bother with small differences like that. There are criticals (rolling 1/10th of your skill or under), and fumbles (only on rolling 00). The skill list is even shorter than BRP, and weapon skills come in broad groups rather than individual types (just "sword" rather than short sword, long sword, 2-handed sword, scimitar, etc.). Each spell is also a skill - so most beginning casters are not very good with them!

Advancement
Advancement basically boils down to skill improvement, though of course there are also magic items, wealth, and powerful friends as in any game. Skills improve through experience or training.

Experience means successfully using a skill in stressful circumstances. You don't roll for skills unless it's a stressful circumstance, anyway. If you succeed, you tick that skill. Once you return to base, take some time out to rest and recuperate and reflect, you get to roll for improvement - roll over your current skill and it goes up by 1%.

Training means you need to find a teacher, pay them well, and put in the hours. Usually you can only learn skills from your own class - the local Thieves' Guild, Fighting Band, Church, or Magician's College. Note that the local branch may not be friendly with your home branch, and they may even be enemies! This is especially true for Magician's Colleges (think the Colleges of Dokhon and Khan in the book "What is Dungeons and Dragons?").

Really, that's all there is to the core system.

[Vile Traveller]

For this game I am sticking to the central elements of Holmes, so I'm not including "implied" stuff like, for example, creatures or classes mentioned in the text but not detailed. Minimal is the watchword for D:u, always.

Professions
I am including 3 classes, i.e. no cleric. They are organisations, so characters can go outside them to some extent, but they have to obey their strictures or risk being kicked out (at best) or killed (or worse ...). So it might be possible for a thief to somehow learn a spell or two, but only if they can find a mage willing to bend the rules of their college to that extent. No chance of that for a cleric, who'd be excommunicated in a flash and possible burned at the stake for blasphemy. These organisations are all quite locational, so they may or may not have links to neighbouring branches. I use the same Known World as in BLUEHOLME™, so some of the details below may not be in the core D:u rulebook - but they will appear in adventures.

Fighters
The fighting bands are mercenary companies tied to local guilds. Generally members of all bands are welcome at any branch, though the "home" companies are always more welcome. The guild halls provide training, equipment, and lodging - all for a price. It is also possible to deposit a ransom against future need. Paid-up members are the only people outside the local ruler's military who permitted to wear plate armour in cities, and they are bound to obey local laws while they do so.

Mages
I call the mages rather than magic-users. Some magician's colleges are deadly rivals, though most are neutral and a few are allies. They maintain extensive libraries and laboratories, and are affiliated to other "NPC" guilds like the sages and the alchemists. Depending on the local ruler's inclinations, and the power of the ever-jealous Church, colleges may be grand and ostentatious or secretive and (literally) underground. Mages can leave their giant, fragile, and generally awkward magic books at the local library free of charge. I am adapting the 1st and 2nd level spells from Holmes to a point system, need to set the value to reflect how spells are used in Holmes - i.e. not more than a few cast every day. I expect richer mages to rely mostly on scrolls at first, and later on potions and wands.

Thieves' Guilds
Thieves' guilds are friendly or unfriendly mostly depending on their leaders' personal relationships to one another. They provide a plethora of useful and necessary services to their cities, even though they are technically illegal. Members are sworn to secrecy, and special dispensation is usually needed to operate within a guild other than one's own. The guilds look after their own extremely well, but are swift to exact punishment on renegades. They extract a toll from their members. Training costs extra.

Equipment & Encumbrance
The equipment list follows Holmes pretty closely, I don't want more detail than necessary. Weapons do do different damage, so the list matters. I may expand the armour table as D:u uses a point scale from 1 (thick skin, or padding) to 6 (full plate). The D:u encumbrance system is fairly simple, with items having an ENC measured in "things" - most things like 1-handed weapons are 1 ENC. Big, awkward loads are 2 or more things. Incidental stuff isn't counted. Loading is based on the character's (or creature's) STR and SIZ.

[Vile Traveller]

EDIT: This is a bit smaller now, see the new post further on.

I'm sticking to the Holmes creature list, though I am using all editions of the book. Looking at this, I never cease to be struck by how good a job Dr Holmes did in selecting the quintessential range of D&D monsters to represent most types of adventures (though, ugh, Blink Dogs). D:u is not using the OGL, so those marked with an asterisk * may have to be re-named for copyright reasons. Those jokingly labelled with a "TM" are taken from BLUEHOLME™.

Bandit and Berserker are just templates which can be applied to any intelligent creature, so they are not listed. No Blink Dog, because I hate them. No Cockatrice, never saw the point in having both these and Basilisks. I may throw in a few mundane creatures if they seem necessary in the core rules, but will probably reserve them for specific adventures instead.

Creatures A to Z:

• Ant, Giant
• Basilisk
• Beetle, Giant (Fire Beetle, Rot Beetle/Rust Monster)
• Blink Dog* (I hate these and may leave them out)
• Carrion Crawler* (Cave Creeper™)
• Centipede, Giant
• Chimera
• Djinni
• Doppelganger
• Dragon, Black
• Dragon, Brass
• Dragon, Red
• Dragon, White
• Dwarf
• Elf
• Gargoyle
• Ghoul
• Giant, Hill
• Giant, Stone
• Giant, Frost
• Giant, Fire
• Giant, Cloud
• Giant, Storm
• Gnole (Gnoll*)
• Gnome
• Goblin, Small (Goblin)
• Goblin, Large (Hobgoblin)
• Goblin, Giant (Bugbear*)
• Griffin (Griffon*)
• Harpy
• Hell Hound
• Hippogriff
• Horse (Light, Medium, Heavy, Draft)
• Howl Bear (Owl Bear*)
• Hydra
• Kobold
• Lizard Folk (Lizard Man)
• Manticore
• Medusa
• Minotaur
• Mummy
• Nixie
• Octocat™ (Displacer Beast*)
• Ogre
• Ooze, Black (Black Pudding*)
• Ooze, Green (Green Slime*)
• Ooze, Grey (Gray Ooze*)
• Ooze, Ochre (Ochre Jelly*)
• Ooze, Transparent (Gelatinous Cube*)
• Ooze, Yellow (Yellow Mold)
• Orc
• Pegasus
• Pixie
• Rat, Giant
• Shadow
• Screecher™ (Shrieker*)
• Skeleton
• Spectre
• Spider, Giant
• Strige (Stirge*)
• Tick, Giant
• Troglodyte
• Troll
• Unicorn
• Vampire
• Werebear
• Wereboar
• Wererat
• Weretiger
• Werewolf
• Wight
• Worm, Giant (Purple Worm)
• Wraith
• Zombie

[Vile Traveller]

Treasure
I will probably do something about the treasure tables, as there are a few things I don't like. For one thing, there ought to be lots more scrolls. For another, some treasure types are over-represented, and some not used at all. The monetary system and magic items remain the same as Holmes, new or unusual magic items will be introduced in adventures.

I'll stick to the gold standard, no matter how much it's been bashed over the years. It's too much fun to dump in favour of "realism".

I do want to add a complicating factor here, though, something I use all the time - a version of the gems and jewellery appendices from the Dungeon Masters Guide. It's hard on the novice referee (and even the old-dog referee like me!) to come up with different types of gemstones and jewellery all the time. It may add to the size of this "simple" book, but there are quite a few useful bits like this in the back of the DMG and the Judges Guild Ready Ref Sheets which I'm tempted to adapt.

Referee's Tips
On the subject of which, I will include some carefully chosen bits of advice for those same novice referees, on dungeon design and the like. The approach I am taking to this book is rather like academic writing in my day job: never assume your audience knows what you're thinking! Things that may seem obvious to us old hands can be completely obscure to anyone outside the same set of life experiences, as we should all be aware of after reading the LBBs.

[Deleted]

This sounds fun. Do you allow the Reversed spells (Cause Light Wounds, Darkness etc) for evil Clerics ?

Maybe more fun to have to learn those spells in play by having to seek training from some evil magic college  (good luck with that)

[Vile Traveller]

Jan 29, 2020 6:44:03 GMT -6 @geordieracer said:

Do you allow the Reversed spells (Cause Light Wounds, Darkness etc) for evil Clerics?

Yep, they are in the "Referee" chapter. As are the 3rd level magic-user spells and 2nd-level cleric spells, I've recently decided.

[Deleted]

In combat, does the defender's chance to parry/dodge and their choice of weapon figure into the attack roll ?

[ravenheart87]

I recommend coming up with another title. Aeon is already used by Onyx Path (and was used by White Wolf before them).

[Deleted]

Hmm.. how about AEONIC:underworld ?

[Vile Traveller]

Haha, I'll worry about the name when I come to publish it. I've been messing with this so long I already outlasted White Wolf.

EDIT: As noted above, the title is now DREAMSCAPE:something™.

[Deleted]

Jan 30, 2020 2:48:58 GMT -6 @geordieracer said:

In combat, does the defender's chance to parry/dodge and their choice of weapon figure into the attack roll ?

Also, are you using Holmesian Dex-order initiative ?

Sorry but I'm trying to see how the game sits between Holmes and BRP.

[Vile Traveller]

Feb 3, 2020 1:59:05 GMT -6 @geordieracer said:

In combat, does the defender's chance to parry/dodge and their choice of weapon figure into the attack roll?

Also, are you using Holmesian Dex-order initiative? Sorry but I'm trying to see how the game sits between Holmes and BRP.

Basically, the system is wholly BRP. The "implied setting" is Holmes - adventuring "classes" (more like RQ2 guilds and cults), monster species, spells, magic items, monetary system & treasure.

[Vile Traveller]

The core system is a D20 roll-under skill system. Skills are considerably broader than some BRP or GURPS-based games. Skills are only rolled when there are significant consequences - anyone can climb an apple tree or ride a docile mount, the referee calls for a roll to scale a cliff over a raging stream of lava or to gallop at top speed along a forest path. There are only 3 possible results - success, failure, or critical (success).

• Agility
• Animal Handling
• Appraisal
• Arcana
• Awareness
• Brawling
• Deception
• Endurance
• Healing
• Language
• Lore
• Mariner
• Mechanism
• Melee
• Missile
• Persuasion
• Stealth
• Survival

[Vile Traveller]

Every spell is learned separately. They need to spend time every morning with their magic or holy books, actually "casting" spells and internalising the power at that point. During the adventure they simply release that power in a controlled manner. The magic system is point-based, and effect, range, and duration can be increased by spending more Stamina at the time of release.

Stamina is the big limiting factor, though mages double theirs as long as they have their mage staff.

[Deleted]

Neat condensed skill list, I prefer this to subdivided social skills (etiquette!).

So with the spells, can you cast the same spell more than once per day ?

[Vile Traveller]

I reckon so. Characters can learn spells as long as they can find and pay for a teacher (or a good book). They'll then know that spell. Once they know a spell, they can cast it as often as they want, while they have the POW to contain it ready for release. To keep things within the power curve for Holmes, though, nobody is really able to cast a lot of spells a day, because of the Stamina cost.

This part I'm still working out. The points per spell will have to be such that mid-to-high Stamina casters can cast the equivalent of 2x1st and 1x2nd level spells. But, as in Holmes, other than rank beginners most magicians will be relying on scrolls, wands, and potions for their day-to-day magic, reserving those spells "in mind" for when you really need them.

The other thing I have also not yet decided is whether to make casters weaker as their POW points are used up. Probably not, as it's extra book-keeping and using up spells is already weakening the caster in a way.

[Deleted]

I like the idea of maintaining the Holmes power curve and making magicians more than just spellcasters by having to use scrolls/potions wands etc.

To my mind, having casters weaken as their POW points are used up is unnecessary as there is enough resource management and balance already by sticking to a Holmes power curve.

[Deleted]

Will the Known World setting be included with A:U or will it be in a standalone product for Blueholme and A:U to refer to ?

[Vile Traveller]

Feb 19, 2020 3:01:47 GMT -6 @geordieracer said:

Will the Known World setting be included with A:u or will it be in a standalone product for Blueholme and D:u to refer to ?

I'm glad you asked!

I haven't actually decided what to call the "Known World" in D:u yet, if anything. It won't be the same as BLUEHOLME™, because the latter is a much 'bigger' game in that sense. In line with my plan to stick with what's in the Holmes book, I'm thinking of developing Portown and the area around it to start with, and slowly expand with more background in adventure modules. BLUEHOLME™ has the same approach, I won't produce one big gazetteer to cover the whole world (though I'll probably include the Alyssa Faden world map in my next adventure for it).

I have a working title for the adventure to be released alongside the rules: Palace of the Platinum Princess, or something like that.

[Deleted]

Feb 19, 2020 3:50:12 GMT -6 Vile Traveller said:

Feb 19, 2020 3:01:47 GMT -6 @geordieracer said:

Will the Known World setting be included with A:u or will it be in a standalone product for Blueholme and A:u to refer to ?

I'm thinking of developing Portown and the area around it to start with, and slowly expand with more background in adventure modules.

That sounds like a good manageable approach to me, and totally appropriate to keeping it Holmes-like. My group got a lot out of the description of Portown once we left the sample dungeon, even the brief mention of 'other magic users moved into the town' instantly birthed a squabbling cabal of rival NPCs.

[Vile Traveller]

In keeping with limiting the source material to the Holmes Basic book, the setting for A:u is built around a small coastal city built around trade, a "Port-town" if you will. Most of this will only appear in adventures, I don't intend to include overt setting material in the rule book and I won't produce a gazetteer.

It is a northern city, with a somewhat chilly climate, and the only safe port on a wild and rocky shore. The city is the interchange between busy caravan routes and perilous but profitable sea lanes. Piracy is rife in the area, and all sorts of hazards lurk among the small "uninhabited" islands offshore. There is a fishing industry, but mainly as a cover for smuggling. Going to sea in these parts requires courage, wit, and strength. There are some farms huddling close to the city walls, but most food is brought in by caravan. The city council knows this is a risk, and maintains its own stores (on which it makes a handsome profit).

Portown boasts two Magicians' Colleges, the College of Dokhon and the College of Khan. Khan claims to be a neutral seat of learning but everyone knows several of their prominent have leanings (at the very least) towards Chaos. Dokhon claims to be a bastion of Law but everyone knows that by far the majority of its students are mostly interested in money.

The Church has far less power than it would like (because it would like total control), but it does have a fairly powerful voice within the city council due to the rivalry between the two Magicians' Colleges which prevents them from dominating the proceedings.

There are three major Fighting bands, and many minor ones. The Portown Guard is one, whose main work is in patrolling the land and sea about the city to keep it free from undesirable threats to commerce. The other two are the Silver Daggers are mercenaries who specialise in caravan security, and the Flying Buccaneers who provide marines for merchants plying the dangerous maritime routes.

There are several gangs in the city, but only one real Thieves' Guild. Their eyes and ears are everywhere so those in need can always contact them, even though no-one knows who they are or where their stronghold is - or even if there is one. More entrepreneurial than most, there are few jobs they won't consider if the price is right. Locals and regular merchants who pay their protection monies are generally safe from mundane larceny, but strangers or unusual treasures are fair game. Everyone suspects they are in league with the pirates.

There are several relatively well-known entrances to the Underworld within the city walls, but they are all controlled by the city council who tax any adventurers going in and take a share of their loot coming out. Entrances outside the walls are kept a closely-guarded secret by those who know about them.

I am using old city of Chania as a map base for Portown, as has been done before by several Holmes fans including paleologos over on Dragonsfoot.