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Post by aldarron on Mar 20, 2020 5:58:14 GMT -6
No.
I was a 2e core guy for a long time, and ran a few 2e campaigns, but never in a pure way. I saw, and still see, it as AD&D rewritten and cleaned up. Pretty much the same rules. Once I discovered the elegance of OD&D, all the fluff and nonsense of the "Advanced" and "modern" got tossed into the "to hell with that crap" pile. I keep the books for reference and the occasional tidbit, but I have no interest in running a 1e or 2e game again, and any adventures I want to run get run as OD&D.
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Post by jeffb on Mar 20, 2020 6:54:15 GMT -6
In retrospect, I think I prefer the 2E product model best- Not that all of it was great in execution, but: TSR gave us lots of setting materials to use or not. They gave us lots of player tools to use or not. They gave us lots of DM tools to use or not. Honestly, while it did produce some gems, I have to disagree - I think the 2E product model was real bad for business. Or really, maybe we should call it the BECMI product model, since it was a few years before 2E in the mid-80's that they really kicked into high gear with the Mystara Gazetteers and Hollow World supplements. But anyway, publishing a ton of books cost a lot of money for TSR to print them all, and while they never revealed exact sales numbers there's a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest that most of the supplements didn't sell super well. Incidentally, 3E, 4E, and Vampire: The Masquerade all had similarly aggressive product schedules and suffered similar fates; causing White Wolf to go bankrupt just like TSR did, whereas WotC had enough foresight and cash reserves to put out the next edition while they were still in the black and ride the big wave of PHB, DMG, and MM sales back into profitability. I suspect Paizo also saw the writing on the wall when 5E came out and started work on Pathfinder 2 to go after that same new-edition cash influx. I think their current 5E strategy is the first time since TSR's first 10 years under Gary Gygax's presidency that D&D has had a financially sustainable product model. I forgot to add my disclaimer  This is purely from a product "wants" fan standpoint, in no way am I talking financially or from a financial standpoint. No doubt 5E is doing amazingly well financially, and I would never argue that. And the 5E generation are eating it up, but not me. I prefer being able to have a variety of tools to pick from instead of the feat or famine WOTC model. I don't need yet even more rehashes of previous edition materials and adventures that have been around for decades. The adventure products they produce are mostly railroad mega adventures, poorly done re-hashes of classic adventures that they then stuff into the Forgotten Realms. The Monster books are heavily tied into their IP- For example Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes spends nearly half it's content talking about the IP of Planescape and The Great Wheel and how all the monster lore fits into the cosmos. Volo's Guide to MOnsters spends nearly half its page count going over reams and reams of lore for basic monsters like Goblins, and Mind Flayers then providing a pedestrian lair for each creature with an aesthetically attractive but functionally difficult to use map. I don't want or even need this stuff, it's all been done before. It's just packaged differently than before. I *AM* looking forward to Theros, but it's not even a D&D setting. It's a M:TG setting. I really like 5E as a ruleset, but WOTC has produced zilch that makes me want to play it. Even the 3PP material has been pretty lackluster this edition. The 3PP are just jumping on the bandwagon and are not nearly as creative as they were in the prime of the 3.0 boom. Goodman, TLG, Frog God/Necromance have all been really disappointing this go-around. Actually I find I have far more loved and used 4th edition products both WOTC proper and 3rd party on my shelves than for 5th. Hope that explains it better. |
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Post by tdenmark on Mar 27, 2020 12:49:21 GMT -6
I'm fond of some of the supplements. The Ravenloft, Darksun, and Spelljammer settings were pretty good. But I didn't play much 2e, the actual system. They changed just enough to be annoying and not enough to fix the genuine problems in 1st edition.
I wish I'd gotten into Planescape, since only recently started reading some of that material and there is some surprisingly good stuff in it. But that ship is passed, no chance I'll play any of it now.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2020 17:53:42 GMT -6
2e was the big thing when I got into D&D. It was also the expensive thing so I never owned the books. I did play a lot of the video games (video store rentals were cheaper than rpg books in 1994) and have several in my GoG library to this day. I was playing one of the Dark Sun video games the other day. That's the number one thing that pops out in my head about AD&D. It had all the really great settings. The BECMI stuff my friends messed with was Mystara and that stuff was okay but I liked the really gonzo, exotic, not-vanilla-fantasy stuff. I always included those inspirations in my campaign. I was really pleased to see it was baked into OD&D when I went further back and got into that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2020 15:13:41 GMT -6
For me, it can sometimes be difficult to separate the edition from the campaign experience (meaning who were my players). For example, the worst campaign I ever had was using 3.0 rules but the players and I just didn't click at all which makes it difficult to evaluate it objectively. Likewise, my favourite campaign used AD&D 2nd Ed rules, but the players were simply awesome. If I had the same players with a different edition, would I have had a different experience?
So what I loved about AD&D 2nd ed. were two things. First the breakdown of the cleric and druid classes into priest spheres made it far, far easier for me to customise my priests to fit the campaign. Whereas in previous editions I had to distort and contort the campaign to fit the cleric & druid classes. Second, I loved the historical campaign supplements. I used most of their rules to make the campaign closer to a mythic earth like the Averoigne cycle by CAS. I bought most of the Ravenloft material but used them almost always as inspiration rather than as is. And as others have mentioned, it was close enough to AD&D for everyone to adapt to it quickly (unlike later editions).
As a DM, I also liked the character class customisation rules in Skills & Powers as a way to verify my custom classes.
I have very mixed feelings about the Combat & Tactics rules. One the one hand, when there are very limited combat options, combat goes by very quick. I can crank up the Heavy Metal and push the players to react quickly to get that adrenaline rush of real hand-to-hand combat. But on the other hand, I really like giving fighters various manoeuvres to liven up the monotony of roll, roll, roll your dice.
But I can always simply a lot of the AD&D 2nd ed. rules which is great, unlike later editions.
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Post by jeffb on Jul 24, 2020 15:49:47 GMT -6
One the one hand, when there are very limited combat options, combat goes by very quick. I can crank up the Heavy Metal and push the players to react quickly to get that adrenaline rush of real hand-to-hand combat. But on the other hand, I really like giving fighters various manoeuvres to liven up the monotony of roll, roll, roll your dice. But I can always simply a lot of the AD&D 2nd ed. rules which is great, unlike later editions. This is my big internal struggle. For players who really are good at describing the fictional elements, fast and loose combat is great. But some players who are shy, not quick to think up something cool, etc- really benefit from having a to-do list of feats/powers/exploits/yaddayaddayadda Thus, I love both 4E, and TSR editions. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Jul 24, 2020 15:54:23 GMT -6
I didn't care for the Player's Option books. By then I was starting to lean towards keeping things simple. The books also seemed to override the kits from the different Handbooks, which I had invested a lot in. Nowadays, I wouldn't necessarily use the kits except as flavor. I can also use elements from 1E if I wanted to. But for the most part, I just stick with the core rules.
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Post by asaki on Jul 24, 2020 20:47:56 GMT -6
I did play a lot of the video games (video store rentals were cheaper than rpg books in 1994) and have several in my GoG library to this day. You had a place that rented out PC games!? o__O Or do you mean the (mostly) crappy console games? I did kind of have a soft spot for those super weird 3DO games, though. The BECMI stuff my friends messed with was Mystara and that stuff was okay... Warriors of the Eternal Sun for the Sega Genesis is based on Mystara...more specifically, the Hollow World setting, IIRC. I didn't care for the Player's Option books. By then I was starting to lean towards keeping things simple. The books also seemed to override the kits from the different Handbooks, which I had invested a lot in. Nowadays, I wouldn't necessarily use the kits except as flavor. I can also use elements from 1E if I wanted to. But for the most part, I just stick with the core rules. Ditto. But one of the books does have some pretty cool stats for firearms (gunpowder or smoke powder), I had to swipe that. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Jul 25, 2020 2:04:52 GMT -6
I have a Best of Dragon issue that has a couple of articles about cannons and firearms. I would have just used the statistics found there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2020 7:36:17 GMT -6
I did play a lot of the video games (video store rentals were cheaper than rpg books in 1994) and have several in my GoG library to this day. You had a place that rented out PC games!? o__O Or do you mean the (mostly) crappy console games? I did kind of have a soft spot for those super weird 3DO games, though. I did, actually! Two. There was a local video store that had a small selection of pc games in the early nineties, but it closed down after a year or two, and my local library used to provide them back when the idea was that most pc games were classified as "educational", including for some reason a selection of RPGs, which I suppose is actually true in that they involve math and problem solving. |
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Post by asaki on Jul 25, 2020 18:24:44 GMT -6
That's crazy, you could just copy/install the disk and return it...
Library makes sense though, I know they loan all kinds of non-book things.
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Post by tdenmark on Jul 27, 2020 12:00:12 GMT -6
Just reread the 2e PHB.
It is better than I remembered.
I still hate the 2e DMG, it's just...insulting.
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Post by asaki on Jul 27, 2020 12:32:35 GMT -6
I still haven't really read the DMG. I think it was mostly just a place to hide treasure tables and other things the players didn't need to see...I know they dropped a lot of 1E stuff from it.
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Post by cadriel on Jul 27, 2020 12:44:44 GMT -6
The 2e DMG makes a lot more sense when you realize that a great deal of the material in it on building worlds and running campaigns was cut. This ultimately made it into DMGR1 Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide, which is a considerably better book than the 2e DMG itself.
TSR was like that sometimes.
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Post by jeffb on Jul 27, 2020 13:42:59 GMT -6
It also helps to know that the original 2E books were designed specifically as rules reference manuals, and not as instructional manuals. They were intending for people to learn the game through experienced folks, or the intro products they produced. They state as much in several places, including the 2E preview document.
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Post by thegreyelf on Jul 29, 2020 5:33:07 GMT -6
I played 2e for many years. In high school and even into College it was our preferred game. The secret of 2e is that it's not all that different from 1e, they just removed monks, orcs, and half-orcs and added Nonweapon Proficiencies (which to be fair originated in 1e, but were refined and much better utilized in 2e). As has been pointed out elsewhere, it did try to play it a bit too safe and family-friendly in the face of (largely manufactured) public outcry from the religious right, but I think it managed to walk the line effectively enough.
As the game went on it implemented a lot of innovative (at the time) ideas like kits, the new psionics system, monstrous PCs, and the much-debated Skills and Powers/Spells and Magic/Combat and Tactics books which would later fuel a lot of the 3.x game design (the entire 3e combat system is in Combat and Tactics). We liked the modern (at the time) bright design and art style. We enjoyed the straightforward presentation. We honestly never thought THAC0 was all that arcane or tough to understand--what's hard to grok about 20-roll result = AC hit? It also eventually got over the fear of the Religious Right and re-introduced the idea that you're fighting EVIL with things like A Paladin in Hell and the Blood War stuff in Planescape.
In the end, I dug 2e, and to this day I STILL dig 2e. It was certainly a design and presentation of its time, but for its time it was a great effort.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2020 15:21:07 GMT -6
That's crazy, you could just copy/install the disk and return it... Library makes sense though, I know they loan all kinds of non-book things. I think the guy who ran the video store was a bit of a luddite when it came to most new (at the time) technology and didn't catch onto that for a while. My brothers and I still laugh when we reminisce about the fact he put "be kind, rewind" stickers on NES cartridges, for instance. |
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Post by asaki on Jul 30, 2020 17:34:38 GMT -6
Nice  |
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Post by tdenmark on Aug 5, 2020 11:36:24 GMT -6
The 2e DMG makes a lot more sense when you realize that a great deal of the material in it on building worlds and running campaigns was cut. This ultimately made it into DMGR1 Campaign Sourcebook and Catacomb Guide, which is a considerably better book than the 2e DMG itself. TSR was like that sometimes. Makes sense. They were so out of touch with their market it is astounding and no wonder they soon went bankrupt. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2020 18:17:47 GMT -6
bump DMGR1!
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Post by mrmanowar on Aug 5, 2020 23:31:56 GMT -6
Think what you will about 2E as a system, but one major thing I always give it credit for is the following: Encyclopedia Magica Vol. 1-4, Complete Wizards Spell Compendium and Complete Priests Spell Compendium. I don't use the kits, etc. but boy are these books really helpful to look up magic items, spells, etc. for 2E rules and handy. On the plus side with them all compiled here, it's easy to backtrack them to 1E, and with a little work to Basic or OD&D. I don't have an opinion on TSR's business practices, but just some of the late product. If you all can get these things, it's really great and helps with the game in my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 7:43:29 GMT -6
Think what you will about 2E as a system, but one major thing I always give it credit for is the following: Encyclopedia Magica Vol. 1-4, Complete Wizards Spell Compendium and Complete Priests Spell Compendium. I don't use the kits, etc. but boy are these books really helpful to look up magic items, spells, etc. for 2E rules and handy. On the plus side with them all compiled here, it's easy to backtrack them to 1E, and with a little work to Basic or OD&D. I don't have an opinion on TSR's business practices, but just some of the late product. If you all can get these things, it's really great and helps with the game in my opinion. More spells and more magic items is always a great way to expand on whatever rules set you're using. I generally prefer this approach over additional races/classes/feats or whatever as far as character customization goes. If you wanna play a war mage, bard or druid or something in 3lbb you can do that with the right spells or gear, in theory. The onus is on the referee to provide the tools of the trade and allow the knowledge to be gainable for the PCs if they're interested in that kind of thing, so they can pursue it themselves. I'm 100% in favor of that type of expansion in my own games. I love when a player comes to my table with an earnest desire to research new magic or abilities. I simply make them work for it, but I allow it to exist in theory. |
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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 6, 2020 12:23:13 GMT -6
My main gripe is that fighters got very little. Mages and clerics got new spells, thieves got (in the Players Option books) new abilities. But fighters? Not a lot. Considering I prefer this class over others, it continues to be a sticking point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 12:50:38 GMT -6
My main gripe is that fighters got very little. Mages and clerics got new spells, thieves got (in the Players Option books) new abilities. But fighters? Not a lot. Considering I prefer this class over others, it continues to be a sticking point. Wasn't there at least one rather lengthy splat book that added a lot of heroic maneuvers and weapon specializations? I may be misremembering. As I said, I never owned a single 2e book. There were a lot of them around back then but I was a monetarily challenged youth. |
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Post by cadriel on Aug 7, 2020 5:51:12 GMT -6
Wasn't there at least one rather lengthy splat book that added a lot of heroic maneuvers and weapon specializations? I may be misremembering. As I said, I never owned a single 2e book. There were a lot of them around back then but I was a monetarily challenged youth. There were at least two. PHBR1 The Complete Fighter's Handbook has a list of combat maneuvers and extra specializations, and Player's Option: Combat & Tactics has a list of combat options and a whole new detailed specialization system. C&T had a lot of ideas for a very detailed grid-based combat system and in some ways was closer to 3.x D&D than anything else released in the AD&D years. |
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Post by kaiqueo on Aug 7, 2020 7:17:56 GMT -6
OD&D, 1e and the classic line were never released here in Brazil. I started playing with 2e in the 90s, and for some years I believed that the PHB was the only book required to play. When I found the three 3e books in a store and was told that I needed all of them, I felt so exploited. I bought the them though, but eventually got the 2e DMG and MM and went back to that edition.
Still my most nostalgic and played edition, but since I discovered B/X and OD&D, it's not my favourite anymore. I always played AD&D 2e with one third of the rules anyway.
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Post by tkdco2 on Aug 7, 2020 12:15:02 GMT -6
I have the Fighter's Handbook but not Combat & Tactics. I avoided the Players Option books. I thought they unnecessarily complicated the game. If I had know that's how 3E would be like, I probably wouldn't have bought the 3E books, or at least I would have been less curious about it.
B/X is another favorite of mine. I would have to say 2E and B/X are tied for my favorite edition of the game. 1E and BECMI are close seconds. I have limited experience in OD&D, having access to it fairly recently. Still, it has its own charm, and I'd like to play it more often.
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