Post by stormberg on Aug 29, 2019 16:59:01 GMT -6
Thought experiment! Given the popularity of Chainmail events in the Legends of Wargaming Room at GaryCon and our growing number of players and people installing sand tables in their basements as a result:
What if Gary Gygax had never been introduced to Blackmoor and Dungeon!?
Given the popularity of the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail, Gary would have certainly continued expanding the elements of Chainmail as he already did in 1972 with the 2nd edition. Think of what Gary's Advanced Chainmail Fantasy Rules would be like!
I am guessing you would eventually have a collection of monsters, spells, alignments, magic items, and classes just like D&D. It is pretty obvious that the milieu of D&D, as we know it, is because of Gary's love of swords and sorcery and science fiction pulps.
Experience and advancement would certainly have been in play and thus levels would be expressed in granular ways. Indeed, there would be ongoing campaigns and players would keep characters and troops from scenario to scenario.
There would be a referee too to adjudicate battles, logistics, and campaign developments, as well as creating scenarios. Elements of all of these things are seen in Battle of Brown Hills (1970) as well as the LGTSA man-to-man Viking campaign presented in the Viking Raid! battle report in Panzerfaust (1970) and much later and in greater detail in Little Wars magazine in 1976.
Would there be dungeon adventures? Would there be small groups of adventurers run by individual players? These certainly existed in Gary's lexicon of fantasy literature although the scale of Chainmail battles is different than our typical D&D adventure. However, the man-to-man Viking campaign he was running had groups of individuals with heroic leaders, operated by multiple players, raiding abbeys and keeps for religious relics of precious metals, gems, and other treasures. Battle of Brown hills has a treasure chest of jewels and gold coins that is sought by the opposing force. The chest is even trapped in one scenario with a pair of basilisk eyes inside!
Monsters and NPC's run by the referee existed in Chainmail scenarios too, e.g., the troll under the bridge in an early Chainmail scenario, the red dragon in Battle of Brown Hills, and the various NPC citizens of the Viking man-to-man campaign.
As to whether Gary would have developed any depth to his campaign elements, read just this one excerpt from his Grayte Wourms letters in Thangorodrim from 1969 (before he even met Dave Arneson):
"Perhaps the rarest of the Great Worms is the Arctic Dragon, or "Frost Breath." Unlike others of his kind, this large white worm inhabits only the coldest regions of the far north and has no internal fire. Draco Articus seeks glaciers in which to dwell and if the temperature remains cold enough they will sleep therein for very long period of time, only awakening to feed when stimulated by warmth. The Arctic Dragon will attack any living creature on sight, often including others of his own specie. Their main weapon is a chilling breath (which will immediately freeze boiling water.) All recorded specimens have only a single head, are up to 100 feet in length, weigh eight tons, and otherwise conform to Dragons in general (wings, fangs, claws, etc.)... Articus does not usually hoard and is of low intelligence."
As far as game world creation we have this from Battle of Brown Hills in Wargamer's Newsletter from 1970 and well before the publication of Chainmail:
"East of the Desert of Sorrow stretches the nearly unbroken barrier of forbidding mountains. Furthest south, dipping into the place where the Gnyxyg Sea meets The Ocean, they are called Mountains of Bitter Cold. At the place where the Broken Land joins them they become known as the Home of Dragons, and it is somewhere within their vast area that is hidden the Cave of Shifting Runes. Furthest north they are known as the Giant Mountains, due not to the stature of their peaks — albeit this is undiminished, but rather for the creatures who inhabit the labyrinthine caverns therein. A spur of the chain turns first eastward, then circles north again, to enclose the hidden and unwholesome valley of Lake Iuz. The lesser peaks of the spur are the Dwarfrealm.
On the coast north of the Giant Mountains are the lands called Drearshore, and the peninsula of Lands End. It was from here that Chaos armed its host, swarmed into the Valley of Iuz, and began to harry the Dwarves, causing them to flee southwards into the Brown Hills and bringing news of the massing evil, to the men of the Old Kingdom. From the town of Yon to the city of Hither the news traveled, and the paladins at Great Keep were called forth by the Count of Aerll. All of Law was to meet in solemn council at the hamlet of Lea. In a short time the men of the Meadowlands were joined by a band of the warlike elves from the wood near the Cairnstones, as well as a large band of horsemen from beyond the Silent Forest, the eastern border of all the land.
The encampment of the Count was made in the Cloverfields, between Lea and the Brown Hills. It was here that intelligence reached him that the Hordes of Chaos had debouched from the pass at the headwaters of the Darkling River, skirted the Marshes of Oozing Slime, and now were only a few days from him. Despite the fact that only three-quarters of his forces had been marshaled, the Count marched at once due west across the narrow waist of hills, and took up a strong position to await the enemy."
In some ways these referee-created elements of the campaign milieu equal any presented in D&D and even exceed them in some instances. Just compare the white dragon entry in the Monster Manual to the one above!
I think the key breakthrough would be a player having a singular character, joining a group of players also with a singular characters all working in a cooperative manner. Going on adventures would be a probable development, ala the Viking raids that were already taking place. However, the dungeon adventure is not so probable and would be a key breakthrough as well. Indeed, Blackmoor participants have said most of their adventuring was outdoors in and around the environs of Blackmoor. When they did adventure in the dungeons of Blackmoor it was a fairly unremarkable, one-time event. It took David Megarry to make them all realize the dungeon adventure was a worthwhile pursuit with his creation of the Dungeon! board game.
My answer to this, "What if?", is that we would definitely have a fantasy game with all of the incredible elements of D&D but likely missing the concepts of individual player characters composing an adventuring party and dungeon adventures. Likewise the sophistication of the role of the referee using ongoing systemization as described by Kuntz (Dave Arneson's True Genius) would be lacking as it would require an acceptance of a less neutral referee, one who engages actively in an oppositional/positional role. Clearly in D&D the referee is on one side and the players on the other, while in wargames the players are on oppositional/positional sides and the referee is supposed to be in a neutral, non-positional role.
What do you think Advanced Chanmail Fantasy would look and play like?
What if Gary Gygax had never been introduced to Blackmoor and Dungeon!?
Given the popularity of the Fantasy Supplement of Chainmail, Gary would have certainly continued expanding the elements of Chainmail as he already did in 1972 with the 2nd edition. Think of what Gary's Advanced Chainmail Fantasy Rules would be like!
I am guessing you would eventually have a collection of monsters, spells, alignments, magic items, and classes just like D&D. It is pretty obvious that the milieu of D&D, as we know it, is because of Gary's love of swords and sorcery and science fiction pulps.
Experience and advancement would certainly have been in play and thus levels would be expressed in granular ways. Indeed, there would be ongoing campaigns and players would keep characters and troops from scenario to scenario.
There would be a referee too to adjudicate battles, logistics, and campaign developments, as well as creating scenarios. Elements of all of these things are seen in Battle of Brown Hills (1970) as well as the LGTSA man-to-man Viking campaign presented in the Viking Raid! battle report in Panzerfaust (1970) and much later and in greater detail in Little Wars magazine in 1976.
Would there be dungeon adventures? Would there be small groups of adventurers run by individual players? These certainly existed in Gary's lexicon of fantasy literature although the scale of Chainmail battles is different than our typical D&D adventure. However, the man-to-man Viking campaign he was running had groups of individuals with heroic leaders, operated by multiple players, raiding abbeys and keeps for religious relics of precious metals, gems, and other treasures. Battle of Brown hills has a treasure chest of jewels and gold coins that is sought by the opposing force. The chest is even trapped in one scenario with a pair of basilisk eyes inside!
Monsters and NPC's run by the referee existed in Chainmail scenarios too, e.g., the troll under the bridge in an early Chainmail scenario, the red dragon in Battle of Brown Hills, and the various NPC citizens of the Viking man-to-man campaign.
As to whether Gary would have developed any depth to his campaign elements, read just this one excerpt from his Grayte Wourms letters in Thangorodrim from 1969 (before he even met Dave Arneson):
"Perhaps the rarest of the Great Worms is the Arctic Dragon, or "Frost Breath." Unlike others of his kind, this large white worm inhabits only the coldest regions of the far north and has no internal fire. Draco Articus seeks glaciers in which to dwell and if the temperature remains cold enough they will sleep therein for very long period of time, only awakening to feed when stimulated by warmth. The Arctic Dragon will attack any living creature on sight, often including others of his own specie. Their main weapon is a chilling breath (which will immediately freeze boiling water.) All recorded specimens have only a single head, are up to 100 feet in length, weigh eight tons, and otherwise conform to Dragons in general (wings, fangs, claws, etc.)... Articus does not usually hoard and is of low intelligence."
As far as game world creation we have this from Battle of Brown Hills in Wargamer's Newsletter from 1970 and well before the publication of Chainmail:
"East of the Desert of Sorrow stretches the nearly unbroken barrier of forbidding mountains. Furthest south, dipping into the place where the Gnyxyg Sea meets The Ocean, they are called Mountains of Bitter Cold. At the place where the Broken Land joins them they become known as the Home of Dragons, and it is somewhere within their vast area that is hidden the Cave of Shifting Runes. Furthest north they are known as the Giant Mountains, due not to the stature of their peaks — albeit this is undiminished, but rather for the creatures who inhabit the labyrinthine caverns therein. A spur of the chain turns first eastward, then circles north again, to enclose the hidden and unwholesome valley of Lake Iuz. The lesser peaks of the spur are the Dwarfrealm.
On the coast north of the Giant Mountains are the lands called Drearshore, and the peninsula of Lands End. It was from here that Chaos armed its host, swarmed into the Valley of Iuz, and began to harry the Dwarves, causing them to flee southwards into the Brown Hills and bringing news of the massing evil, to the men of the Old Kingdom. From the town of Yon to the city of Hither the news traveled, and the paladins at Great Keep were called forth by the Count of Aerll. All of Law was to meet in solemn council at the hamlet of Lea. In a short time the men of the Meadowlands were joined by a band of the warlike elves from the wood near the Cairnstones, as well as a large band of horsemen from beyond the Silent Forest, the eastern border of all the land.
The encampment of the Count was made in the Cloverfields, between Lea and the Brown Hills. It was here that intelligence reached him that the Hordes of Chaos had debouched from the pass at the headwaters of the Darkling River, skirted the Marshes of Oozing Slime, and now were only a few days from him. Despite the fact that only three-quarters of his forces had been marshaled, the Count marched at once due west across the narrow waist of hills, and took up a strong position to await the enemy."
In some ways these referee-created elements of the campaign milieu equal any presented in D&D and even exceed them in some instances. Just compare the white dragon entry in the Monster Manual to the one above!
I think the key breakthrough would be a player having a singular character, joining a group of players also with a singular characters all working in a cooperative manner. Going on adventures would be a probable development, ala the Viking raids that were already taking place. However, the dungeon adventure is not so probable and would be a key breakthrough as well. Indeed, Blackmoor participants have said most of their adventuring was outdoors in and around the environs of Blackmoor. When they did adventure in the dungeons of Blackmoor it was a fairly unremarkable, one-time event. It took David Megarry to make them all realize the dungeon adventure was a worthwhile pursuit with his creation of the Dungeon! board game.
My answer to this, "What if?", is that we would definitely have a fantasy game with all of the incredible elements of D&D but likely missing the concepts of individual player characters composing an adventuring party and dungeon adventures. Likewise the sophistication of the role of the referee using ongoing systemization as described by Kuntz (Dave Arneson's True Genius) would be lacking as it would require an acceptance of a less neutral referee, one who engages actively in an oppositional/positional role. Clearly in D&D the referee is on one side and the players on the other, while in wargames the players are on oppositional/positional sides and the referee is supposed to be in a neutral, non-positional role.
What do you think Advanced Chanmail Fantasy would look and play like?
