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Post by delta on Jul 20, 2019 9:45:01 GMT -6
Another way to look at infravision is to be able to detect differences in heat signatures... That's very similar to the take that Gygax put in the AD&D DMG (p. 59). And established a distinction between PCs with infravision of 60' being passive (with possible limits as you say), versus monsters with infravison of 90'+ actively emitting infrared radiation to scan their surroundings. PHB p. 102 actually sets all dungeon-dwelling monsters in that latter category. This also just made me realize that the black-and-white darkvision conceit from 3E D&D has its origin in that PHB p. 102 text.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jul 20, 2019 19:01:15 GMT -6
I need to look at the AD&D rules again. B/X also has the greyscale interpretation, while Mentzer has warmer objects appearing red and cooler objects appearing blue.
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Post by gemini476 on Jul 21, 2019 5:40:36 GMT -6
Of course, it's worth remembering that "real" infravision doesn't follow the ROYGBIV spectrum popular in cameras and whatnot. That's just something we had them do for our convenience since we can't see infrared and it makes temperature differences more obvious than in a black-white spectrum. It's infrared and, well, even infrared. If it's hot enough that it goes beyond red (or even just into red!), you can see it with the naked eye.
If you google around you can see plenty of black-and-white infrared photography, probably because it makes for more attractive images than the false color. Neither is "correct" since when you get down to it they're both wrong, but it doesn't really make much of a difference either way.
Also, thermal radiation is a bit more complex than "X temperature means Y color": different materials will radiate different frequencies of light at different temperatures. Just because a room is all one temperature doesn't have to mean that the Elf is suddenly blind. The big thing is that a shiny metal surface will pretty much always be "colder" than its same-temperature surrounding, which can be quite relevant when considering magic armor and weapons or the occasional room-temperature armed and/or armored undead.
On the other hand, color doesn't really impact emissivity much so chances are that that magic scroll you find is going to look blank in the infrared spectrum. Black ink on white paper doesn't really work outside the visible spectrum.
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Post by derv on Jul 21, 2019 6:24:52 GMT -6
There is a general assumption, established in CM and carrying over into D&D, as a result of film and folk lore, that creatures of Chaos prefer the dark and people of Law prefer the light. Each side will have advantage under those conditions. So, "normal" darkness is just that. Meaning "non-normal" darkness is magically induced as per the spell. The opposite is just as true- i.e. "normal" light.
So, for me, in OD&D all Lawful and Neutral characters, regardless of race, do not have dark vision of any sort. They prefer and are accustomed to the light.
So that there is no confusion, Chaos is not a PC alignment choice in my campaigns.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jul 22, 2019 23:37:42 GMT -6
I just had the thought of using hot/lukewarm/cold objects appear as ulfire, dolm, and jale respectively.
Then again, how would I explain that to my players?
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Post by geoffrey on Jul 23, 2019 6:57:38 GMT -6
I just had the thought of using hot/lukewarm/cold objects appear as ulfire, dolm, and jale respectively. Then again, how would I explain that to my players? "Just as blue is delicate and mysterious, yellow clear and unsubtle, and red sanguine and passionate, so he felt ulfire to be wild and painful, and jale dreamlike, feverish, and voluptuous." (David Lindsay, A Voyage to Arcturus, chapter 6: "Joiwind") Dolm "stands in the same relation to jale as green to red." It is "a compound of ulfire and blue". (David Lindsay, A Voyage to Arcturus, chapter 18: "Haunte") I'm afraid that that's the best any of us can do! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) (I have recently finished re-reading David Lindsay's A Voyage to Arcturus for about the sixth time. It is perhaps my favorite work of sci-fi/fantasy. Highly recommended!)
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Post by gemini476 on Jul 23, 2019 8:22:24 GMT -6
Describe the actual objects as looking hot/lukewarm/cold, and if prompted (e.g. "so is this infravision black-and-white or rainbow IR camera or what") dive into ulfire/dolm/jade and definitions thereof.
Really, though, describing imaginary colors is a tricky subject. Octarine is a greenish purple yellow color, sure, but that doesn't actually mean anything beyond "this is an impossible color". Paraphrasing geoffrey's quotes is a start, but what do you say when your players reply "well yes, but what does that mean?"
If nothing else, you could just say that "these are the words commonly used to describe the color of hot/lukewarm/cold objects" and leave it at that. Whether or not your players play along with it is up to them, but I would caution against using the actual words to describe things (e.g. "you see an ulfire towel") since chances are that it'll just be confusing.
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Post by Zulgyan on Jul 24, 2019 20:30:20 GMT -6
In my game
Elves: see at night by starlight (not underground). Dwarves: see double the distance of torch or lantern light. Hobbits: no special vision. Half-Orcs: infra-vision in tones of red, -1 attack under sunlight.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2019 0:11:10 GMT -6
Dwarves get Infravision in AD&D le. Yet there is that brilliant picture of a group of dwarves and a halfling confronting a magic mouth in a darkened stairway under carried torchlight (AD&D le PH; p.108).
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Post by delta on Jul 26, 2019 10:16:20 GMT -6
You know, another thing I noticed (echoing @doublejig2 and others above) is that whereas giants, et. al. clearly have infravision in every ruleset, Gygax's G1-3 modules have artificial lighting noted almost everywhere (32 occurrences I counted, including general notes for G2 and G3 levels). So arguably there's some kind of "cultural affairs" use-case that infravision fails to provide, such that civilized types still want light, to justify these presentations (even in Gygax's most famous AD&D dungeons). A thing I'm leaning towards testing out is relying on the Sup-I language, "see monsters up to 60’ away in the dark", and require light for anything more detailed, like reading, writing, mapping, searching, etc. E.g., consider this test of a thermal camera in an underground tunnel (the person in front pops out, everything else is murky): ![Thermal camera in Carcass Cave](http://www.superdan.net/download/ThermalCameraCarcassCave.jpg)
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Post by Scott Anderson on Aug 21, 2019 11:36:40 GMT -6
Elfs and dwarfs have it but even a candles worth of light spoils it. So yes, unless they’re within about 100’ of people.
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flightcommander
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Post by flightcommander on Sept 15, 2019 23:27:20 GMT -6
This question, and the related questions around how infravision works, always bothered me. So I just got rid of elves and dwarves. : ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by Scott Anderson on Sept 20, 2019 6:42:20 GMT -6
This question, and the related questions around how infravision works, always bothered me. So I just got rid of elves and dwarves. : ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Elfs and Dwarfs are archetypes as well as races. Orcs and Hobbits too. People are not. People are diverse. It’s perfectly OK to get rid of fantasy races as PCs in theory - but I think players would miss them. I often wish to get rid of them.
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Post by tkdco2 on Sept 23, 2019 2:29:47 GMT -6
I've tried the "humans only" type of game. Most players didn't care for them.
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flightcommander
Level 6 Magician
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Post by flightcommander on Sept 23, 2019 20:35:59 GMT -6
I've tried the "humans only" type of game. Most players didn't care for them. "Human characters only" is probably worth a whole other discussion, but to stay on topic: do you suppose part of the reason your players didn't care for that kind of game was that they wanted their characters to have infravision?
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Post by Starbeard on Sept 24, 2019 23:49:12 GMT -6
"Human characters only" is probably worth a whole other discussion, but to stay on topic: do you suppose part of the reason your players didn't care for that kind of game was that they wanted their characters to have infravision? In my case, absolutely yes. I know this because my players complained when I tried to change things up by allowing demihumans but taking away some of their special abilities, specifically the ability to see in the dark. Note the irony: "Everyone knows dwarves see in the dark. Taking that away just feels too metagamey."
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Post by hamurai on Sept 25, 2019 13:53:08 GMT -6
I usually use a compromise and let them have "low light vision", which allows them to see better in dim light, but not at all in darkness. So they still need a light source but can see better in torch light or moon light than humans. The reason being, elves are people of the woods where light is sometimes scarce, even in the middle of the day, blocked out by dense foliage. Dwarves probably wouldn't live underground if they couldn't see enough down there.
That's our reasoning and so far we're happy with it.
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Post by Starbeard on Sept 25, 2019 14:03:18 GMT -6
Depending on how you construct your campaign, it might be possible to enforce a strict difference between natural darkness and dungeon darkness. Dwarves can see in a natural cavern, but they can't see in dungeons—those are weird magical places full of a strange, inky darkness from another plane. Almost with a semi-intelligence, the dungeons gift their denizens with full vision, but the inky darkness blocks sight from all intruders. The only way to combat the inky darkness is with light, which physically shrinks it away—and at that point it doesn't matter that your dwarf can see underground, because the room is now illuminated anyway.
An interpretation like that also allows a reasonable explanation of why torches are better light sources underground than candles, and why the light radius of torches underground is so small.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Sept 28, 2019 22:11:45 GMT -6
Also, thermal radiation is a bit more complex than "X temperature means Y color": different materials will radiate different frequencies of light at different temperatures. Just because a room is all one temperature doesn't have to mean that the Elf is suddenly blind. The big thing is that a shiny metal surface will pretty much always be "colder" than its same-temperature surrounding, which can be quite relevant when considering magic armor and weapons or the occasional room-temperature armed and/or armored undead. On the other hand, color doesn't really impact emissivity much so chances are that that magic scroll you find is going to look blank in the infrared spectrum. Black ink on white paper doesn't really work outside the visible spectrum. Yep. Emissivity means that same-temperature objects of different materials should be distinguishable, so cold-blooded creatures (including zombies, ghouls, etc) should still be visible by infravision. But text, paintings, etc. aren't going to be interpretable, since they're made for visible light. Infravision wouldn't necessarily have to have alien infrared colors representing different temperatures; it could simply work on a monochrome scale, where hotter = brighter. (In real-world terms, that's what you'd get with only one receptor type, like rod cells without any cone cells...)
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