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Post by harlandski on Jan 5, 2019 0:02:49 GMT -6
I'm thinking of switching from the alternative combat system to the Man-to-Man tables in Chainmail, as I like the importance it gives to different weapon and armor types, but without the calculations suggested in Greyhawk. For goblins, bandits etc the transition is easy, as they are man-like and can have weapons and armor. For giant spiders, spitting cobras, giant ticks, gelatinous cubes etc things are trickier, not in terms of armor class (as that is given), but in terms of weapon class. So far I've decided that weapon class is a combination of length/speed and of piercing/blunt damage. In that sense rats and spiders are quite easy - their bites are probably most like daggers, so weapon class 1. I've also decided spitting cobras and the web of spiders is a ranged attack, so that's a different question. The gelatinous cube is a bit trickier. Short blunt (so mace - weapon class 3?) or short in terms of speed (weapon class 1 in terms of calculating first hit), but effective against any armor (weapon class 10, as two-handed sword). Or maybe for cases like this where "weapon type" make no sense, I should fall back to the Alternative Combat System. I'd be interested to hear from folk who have tried to use the Man-to-Man table in the way I'm describing, and for any informed thoughts on my suggestions. At present I only need to figure out what to do for the monsters on the first level of Palace of the Vampire Queen, namely: - Bandits (by weapon type) - Goblins (by weapon type) - Skeletons (by weapon type) - Rust Monster (as flail?) - Giant rats (as dagger) - House Cats (nil) - Screech Owl (nil) - Giant Tick (drop attack ranged, thereafter as dagger) - Gelatinous Cube (  As mace? Dagger speed, Two-handed sword dice? Alternative Combat Table? - Spitting Cobras (ranged) - Giant Spider (bite as dagger, web ranged) (I've looked over this thread odd74.proboards.com/thread/2099/chainmail-combat-od?page=1 and the Compleat Chainmail Combat System, but haven't found an exact answer to my question there) |
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Post by derv on Jan 5, 2019 8:16:38 GMT -6
You will have to find a compromise when converting to M2M.
I'm not terribly fond of the M2M system. But, to answer your question, I start with how I would classify a creature with the Mass Combat System. This helps give me an idea on conversion. Don't get too hung up on the particular weapon used. Think "attacks like.."
HH & MH= lance.
LH= spear or sword
AF= halberd or polearm
HF= sword
LF= dagger or hand axe
HH= plate & shield
MH= chain & shield
LH= leather
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Post by harlandski on Jan 5, 2019 12:38:58 GMT -6
You will have to find a compromise when converting to M2M. I'm not terribly fond of the M2M system. But, to answer your question, I start with how I would classify a creature with the Mass Combat System. This helps give me an idea on conversion. Don't get too hung up on the particular weapon used. Think "attacks like.." HH & MH= lance. LH= spear or sword AF= halberd or polearm HF= sword LF= dagger or hand axe HH= plate & shield MH= chain & shield LH= leather Thanks, yeah I am trying to see those analogies, but - at the moment at least - I am a fan of the Man-to-Man rules and table, as it makes the choice of weapons and armour a significant one. It's interesting - I've noticed the Mass Combat tables from. Chainmail seem the most popular for those who use Chainmail rather than the Alternative Combat System in their OD&D games, but for me it seems a better fit to use the Man-to-Man rules for dungeon adventures, and save the 'normal' rules for mass battles, where particular weapon and armour types can be grouped together. |
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Post by derv on Jan 5, 2019 12:57:46 GMT -6
An interesting exercise is to take those Mass Combat categories or M2M titles and replace them with letters or numbers only. Get rid of those images we form in our heads. Now consider the combat tables as probabilities. For M2M you may want to factor in multiple strikes and possible parries.
Things sometimes start to take on that familiarity found in the ACS.
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Post by harlandski on Jan 5, 2019 13:08:42 GMT -6
An interesting exercise is to take those Mass Combat categories or M2M titles and replace them with letters or numbers only. Get rid of those images we form in our heads. Now consider the combat tables as probabilities. For M2M you may want to factor in multiple strikes and possible parries. Things sometimes start to take on that familiarity found in the ACS. Funnily enough just today I've been looking at the comparative probabilities of the M2M and ACS, not taking into account the extra hits (or extra levels) yet. Edit: I really liked the whole narrative in Jon Peterson's Playing at the World where an interest in probabilities led to the whole Kriegspiel thing. Of course the Chainmail tables are just an extension of this capturing of probabilities. |
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Post by harlandski on Jan 6, 2019 13:49:46 GMT -6
I have another question about the M2M tables and monsters in OD&D, so I'll ask it here rather than cluttering the boards with a new thread.
As I understand the "Man + 1 / 2 Men" type entries in Men & Monsters and Greyhawk mean that as player characters progress, they first add pips to their dice rolls, and then make more than one dice roll (or more than one attack) per combat round.
I remember reading somewhere that this was also part of the idea of hit dice for monsters, that a 2HD monster would get 2 attacks, though I can't put my finger on the text in Chainmail or the OD&D books to back this up.
My questions are:
1. Is this the case (that monsters should get their HD in number of attacks per round)? If so, what is the source of this idea?
2. What to do about e.g. Skeletons and Goblins which have 1/2 HD and 1-1 HD respectively?
3. Also how does this mesh with the extra attacks which are awarded for having shorter, faster weapons in the man-to-man rules? Does a monster with 2HD and a dagger get 3 or 6 attacks per round against an opponent with a two-handed sword?
I have my own ideas about how to rule this, but would be interested to hear from others, especially those with experience of playing with these rules.
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 7, 2019 1:48:37 GMT -6
As I understand the "Man + 1 / 2 Men" type entries in Men & Monsters and Greyhawk mean that as player characters progress, they first add pips to their dice rolls, and then make more than one dice roll (or more than one attack) per combat round. The above is true for normal combat only where M&M/GH refer to "men", and to fantastic combat only where M&M/GH refer to "hero", "superhero", or "wizard". Note that a single figure only ever fights as one hero/superhero/wizard in fantastic combat, whereas a single figure can fight as multiple men in normal combat. I remember reading somewhere that this was also part of the idea of hit dice for monsters, that a 2HD monster would get 2 attacks, though I can't put my finger on the text in Chainmail or the OD&D books to back this up. M&T p5. CM doesn't exactly have "HD", but many of the monsters in CM's fantasy supplement "fight as" a number men in normal combat (i.e., against normal troops). My questions are: 1. Is this the case (that monsters should get their HD in number of attacks per round)? If so, what is the source of this idea? 2. What to do about e.g. Skeletons and Goblins which have 1/2 HD and 1-1 HD respectively? 3. Also how does this mesh with the extra attacks which are awarded for having shorter, faster weapons in the man-to-man rules? Does a monster with 2HD and a dagger get 3 or 6 attacks per round against an opponent with a two-handed sword? 1. Yes. CM fantasy supplement and M&T p5. 2. A 1-1 HD figure would presumably attack--in normal combat--as a normal man with a -1 adjustment on the die (per M&T p5). I don't think this is implied anywhere in the 3LBBs, but I have treated 1/2 HD figures as 1-2 HD figures for attack purposes. Note that skeletons were originally 1 HD. 3. Not easily. M2M is for men attacking other men, whereas the M&T p5 is (principally) for monsters attacking men (the players); one of OD&D's wonderful dichotomies. The issue comes about when a supernormal "man" encountered in a dungeon is also a "monster". Which rule applies, or how do you combine both rules? I've tried combining both rules by expressing M2M's absolute number of blows per round as a number of additional blows per round. I.e., "two blows" becomes "one additional blow" and "three blows" becomes "two additional blows". Then you can add these to the number of men the figure fights as. Remembering this rule applies to men fighting men might save you from figuring "weapon classes" for all monsters  Another approach might be to use the higher number of attacks allowed by either of the two rules. Hope that's a useful start... |
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Post by harlandski on Jan 7, 2019 11:25:44 GMT -6
Thank you waysoftheearth for your detailed answer, and for helping me to find the paragraph on p. 5 of M&T. The thing is, the way it is worded ("Attack/Defense capabilities" - not just "attack capabilities", and "against normal men") makes me think that it is talking primarily about the mass combat tables in Chainmail, rather than man-to-man combat. But I also take your point that the man-to-man tables are not meant for monsters attacking men. (Though in my understanding goblins, orcs, skeletons, zombies are all '[normal?] men' in a sense, as well as being monsters, so it seems logical to use the man-to-man tables for such types, and from playtesting it certainly works to do so.) I like your suggestions for what to do about 1-1 and 1/2 hit dice for such types, and it adds a nice gradation of danger to the game. I also like your idea of adding extra attacks rather than multiplying. I had had the idea of capping attacks at one or the other maximum myself as well. Where things seem to get to a point I can't really visualise is monsters like giant slugs in Greyhawk, which have 12 HD. I just can't imagine a slug-like creature being able to bite that fast! But anyway as the thing is so deadly from its poison any sensible party will be running away anyway. One question your answer raises - if we shouldn't use the man-to-man table for non-manlike monsters, what can we use from Chainmail, or do we have to use the ACS Attack Matrix II: Monsters Attacking in this case? |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 8, 2019 3:06:18 GMT -6
Thank you waysoftheearth for your detailed answer, and for helping me to find the paragraph on p. 5 of M&T. The thing is, the way it is worded ("Attack/Defense capabilities" - not just "attack capabilities", and "against normal men") makes me think that it is talking primarily about the mass combat tables in Chainmail, rather than man-to-man combat. Whether you choose to use the mass combat or M2M tables to resolve normal combat is a matter of scale. Where one figure represents many men, you'd typically use the mass combat tables. Where one figure represents one man, you'd typically use the M2M tables. In the case of D&D the scale is almost always 1:1, so for normal combat you'd be looking to M2M or the Alternative Attack Matrix 1. But I also take your point that the man-to-man tables are not meant for monsters attacking men. (Though in my understanding goblins, orcs, skeletons, zombies are all '[normal?] men' in a sense, as well as being monsters, so it seems logical to use the man-to-man tables for such types, and from playtesting it certainly works to do so.) Sure. M2M resolves combat between men employing man-sized weapons and armour. It should be fine for other “man-like” figures that employ the same/similar weapons, armour, and modes of fighting. FWIW, the fantasy reference table (CM 3rd Ed. p43) informs us that goblins, kobolds, elves, orcs and so on are comparable to various man figures in mass combat, so I don't see why you couldn't use the M2M table for 1:1 scale engagements involving these guys. Also interesting to note that S&S (p6) classifies other man-like-fantasy-types as "troops": "Scale figures representing human/humanoid (and highly intelligent) creatures of 1st level or above or with 1+1 hit dice are always considered as having elite guard status". Hobgoblins and gnolls are considered elite guard troops; bugbears and ogres are not. Lizardmen and centaurs are listed as "troops". Anyways. (I think I half-recall? reading somewhere that Arneson ran ghouls as normals… someone please correct me?) Where things seem to get to a point I can't really visualise is monsters like giant slugs in Greyhawk, which have 12 HD. I just can't imagine a slug-like creature being able to bite that fast! But anyway as the thing is so deadly from its poison any sensible party will be running away anyway. The giant slug slams whole units of men with its tail, crushes groups of men against walls with its terrible mass, suffocates anyone caught under its awful body, and breaks stones and men alike with the terrible gripping power of its rubbery "foot". Yes, run away. The question is whether or not the venomous bite attack applies at all in normal combat, where the slug has 12 attacks as a normal man. Maybe you could throw one red die for its venomous bite attack? One question your answer raises - if we shouldn't use the man-to-man table for non-manlike monsters, what can we use from Chainmail, or do we have to use the ACS Attack Matrix II: Monsters Attacking in this case? That's what the fantasy combat table is for. |
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Post by harlandski on Jan 8, 2019 11:57:02 GMT -6
The giant slug slams whole units of men with its tail, crushes groups of men against walls with its terrible mass, suffocates anyone caught under its awful body, and breaks stones and men alike with the terrible gripping power of its rubbery "foot". Yes, run away. Wow that is a compelling and truly terrifying image of a giant slug! I'll try to reply properly to your helpful post tomorrow, but for now that image is going to haunt me! |
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Post by harlandski on Jan 9, 2019 4:40:35 GMT -6
Thank you for your answer - it's good to have some confirmation that the use of the M2M table is reasonable for man-like creatures. The one bit I'm still struggling with is going the other way. That's what the fantasy combat table is for. Now the Fantasy Combat Table is the one table in Chainmail I've not yet played with (either playing Chainmail or D&D). Apart from the fact it only has the fantastic creatures in Chainmail (so certainly no giant slugs), it also seems to be just monster-versus-monster (including heroes as monsters for now). Wouldn't it be the 'normal' tables for monsters versus normal men - the monsters just getting lots of dice (and almost certainly killing the whole party). As I don't think I want to go down that route at the moment, I'll probably have a compromise of M2M table for man-like-monsters, which gives the added weapon and armour details, and then the ACS Matrix II for non-man-like monsters, or at least ones whose attacks are nothing like daggers, flails etc. What does S&S stand for, by the way? |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 9, 2019 6:39:36 GMT -6
it also seems to be just monster-versus-monster (including heroes as monsters for now). Wouldn't it be the 'normal' tables for monsters versus normal men - the monsters just getting lots of dice (and almost certainly killing the whole party). ... What does S&S stand for, by the way? Not quite. The FCT is for fantastic figures versus fantastic figures. Ogres, giants, werewolves, heroes, superheroes etc. are all fantastic types; as are (I’m pretty sure) all figures that are not normal types. When a fantastic type fights normals, it has multiple attacks (as a normal man) on the normal combat matrix. When a fantastic type fights another fantastic type, it (typically) has one attack (as a fantastic type) on the FCT. For giant slugs (and other fantastic level monsters not explicitly on the FCT) they can “fight as” similar monsters that are listed, or you simply make up your own numbers. A giant slug might attack as a giant and defend as an ent-1, for example. (I gave that 5 seconds thought; but you get the idea). S&S = Swords &Spells; later (1976?) mass combat rules for D&D. |
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Post by derv on Jan 10, 2019 17:08:51 GMT -6
Wouldn't it be the 'normal' tables for monsters versus normal men - the monsters just getting lots of dice (and almost certainly killing the whole party). Yes. You might find that the M2M system can produce some questionable results even for man-like monsters such as Ogres vs. normals. |
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Post by waysoftheearth on Jan 11, 2019 4:46:48 GMT -6
Wouldn't it be the 'normal' tables for monsters versus normal men - the monsters just getting lots of dice (and almost certainly killing the whole party). Yes. I absolutely agree with derv's response if we read: Wouldn't it be the 'normal' tables (matrices) for (fantastic) monsters versus normal menPerhaps mistakenly, I read harlandski's post to mean: Wouldn't fantastic monsters versus player types be the 'normal' tables for monsters-versus-normal-men (matrix) Apologies if I misinterpreted  To clarify my response: "Yes" use the normal matrix for fantastic monsters versus normal types, but "No" use the fantasy matrix for fantastic monsters versus fantastic types. Also, assuming the "the whole party" implies "player types" then note: Perhaps most prefer that all player types are fantastic, or that all player figures above 1 (or 1+1) HD are fantastic. For me, I prefer that player figures are fantastic when they have hero/superhero/wizard fighting capability (per M&M p17-18, GH p10-11), otherwise they are normals. If you're using the CM combat matrices, maybe the latter is useful..? It's up to you. Reverting to the topic title: "Using the Man-to-Man table for monsters" perhaps you could experiment with either or both of: 1. Assigning man-like weapon types to various monster attacks, and/or 2. Deriving a generic "monstrous weapons type" for any remaining/non-weapon monster attacks? For example the M2M rules suggest that horses attack as mace or flail, M&T recommends that Unicorns charge as a lance and fight as spear and heavy horse thereafter. Tolkien has Smaug say: "my teeth are swords, my claws spears, the shock of my tail a thunderbolt, my wings a hurricane, and my breath death!", any of which might provide inspiration... |
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Post by harlandski on Jan 14, 2019 19:59:37 GMT -6
Sorry waysoftheearth for my sloppy terminology. What I meant to check was that the regular "Combat tables" on the first page of Appendix A in Chainmail should be used when fantastic types attack normal types. You've answered that question now. It's also my understanding that PCs only become fantastic types when they reach Hero or Wizard (-1) status. At the con I ran with "M2M" table for everything. This made my rust monster truly terrifying with 5 flail attacks, and even the giant spider was no washout with two sword attacks (that probably should have been its giant mandibles, but in-game I went for giant sharp front legs). |
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Post by thegreyelf on Jan 19, 2019 6:32:08 GMT -6
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As mace? Dagger speed, Two-handed sword dice? Alternative Combat Table?
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