The EXAMPLE OF THE REFEREE MODERATING A DUNGEON EXPEDITION

[aldarron]

So I put this question here because it seems a reasonable assumption that the "EXAMPLE OF THE REFEREE MODERATING A DUNGEON EXPEDITION" found on U&WA p12 -14, was written by Gygax using actual maps and keys, and that could well mean that it describes a section of Greyhawk dungeon. I was about to map the thing out myself, following the directions of the text, but I wondered if anybody else has already mapped it or made any connection to known sections of the dungeon or known maps (like Gronan's). I wouldn't be surprised if Allen had already done something like this. Anybody know?

[Zenopus]

I feel like I've seen this before, or at least discussion of it, but a quick search is only turning up this brief thread on DF:

www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=79802

[Finarvyn]

An interesting thought. I always assumed that Gary just made the thing up, but I like the notion that it could represent an actual stretch of Greyhawk dungeon.

[aldarron]

Dec 31, 2018 18:33:43 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

I feel like I've seen this before, or at least discussion of it, but a quick search is only turning up this brief thread on DF:

www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=79802

Huh, sounds like that fellow made a map, but from the lack of replies on DF it doesn't seem like this is a path many have taken. That's kinda curious since both the Holmes and Moldvay dungeon examples have been mapped out and discussed a good bit.

[howandwhy99]

By my reading the dungeon design is ad hoc with limited and unrepeated elements in the order they were explained in the text. IOW, a teaching example illustration. ymmv

[JasperAK]

Dec 31, 2018 17:20:31 GMT -6 aldarron said:

So I put this question here because it seems a reasonable assumption that the "EXAMPLE OF THE REFEREE MODERATING A DUNGEON EXPEDITION" found on U&WA p12 -14, was written by Gygax using actual maps and keys, and that could well mean that it describes a section of Greyhawk dungeon. I was about to map the thing out myself, following the directions of the text, but I wondered if anybody else has already mapped it or made any connection to known sections of the dungeon or known maps (like Gronan's). I wouldn't be surprised if Allen had already done something like this. Anybody know?

Better late than never. It's not exact but I think it's pretty close. It's also why I never used slanting corridors. A nightmare for players to map on the fly.

[Zenopus]

Not bad! I think that's about as good a guess as possible for the seemingly nonsensical "door to your left across the passage on a northwest wall", when the party should be facing south after exiting the stairs.

I think the doors in the 20'-wide passage heading south should be at 70' from the intersection. In each instance earlier in the example, when numbers are called out by the Ref, it indicates where the party is currently located.

So at this point...

"CAL: Go south.
REF: 10' - 70': passage continues, doors east and west."

...The party has gone 70' south when they are at the doors.

[clownboss]

I remember drawing it once many years ago and yep, it looked exactly like that.

[JasperAK]

Mar 16, 2021 7:34:39 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

Not bad! I think that's about as good a guess as possible for the seemingly nonsensical "door to your left across the passage on a northwest wall", when the party should be facing south after exiting the stairs.

I think the doors in the 20'-wide passage heading south should be at 70' from the intersection. In each instance earlier in the example, when numbers are called out by the Ref, it indicates where the party is currently located.

So at this point...

"CAL: Go south.
REF: 10' - 70': passage continues, doors east and west."

...The party has gone 70' south when they are at the doors.

I thought that originally too, but in the premium edition the lines go:

REF: 10', 20', 30, 40', 50'. 'Four way': Northwest, northeast, south, and southwest -- the south passage is 20' wide.

CAL: Go south.

REF: 60', 70': passage continues, doors east and west.

To me the Referee is implying that the length is continued from the previous line.

Is what you posted in an original print. I can't find the scans I have of the original books.

EDIOT: I found an original scan that I think I bought from RPGNow back in 2008 that is OCR'd. It has what you posted: "10'-70'". Do you have an actual print to verify which one is correct?

[flightcommander]

Hmm, yeah that's weird — confirmed that my original OD&D PDFs from DTRPG read "10' -70'", while the later so-called premium PDFs read "60', 70'". Since the latter are completely re-typeset (ie not scans) I'd reckon them to be in error.

However, the "60', 70'" interpretation does make sense.

I'm not sure which print edition was used to create the premium edition — knowing that might help pinpoint where it changed.

[Zenopus]

I checked a first printing before I posted that quote above; it's definitely "10' - 70'". My interpretation is that it is shorthand speak for "10', 20', 30', 40', 50', 60', 70'". It's showing you don't have to speak every 10' increment as you describe the map.

I also checked a copy from the 6th printing (OCE, post-Tolkien-removal), and it's the same.

I'd suggest in the premium reprint it is either uncorrected OCR error, or someone mistakenly thinking it needed to be corrected.

I also compared the rest of the Example in the 1st print vs the 6th, and didn't note any changes.

[Zenopus]

So what does having the map illustrate for us about Gygax's early dungeon design features?

Stairs may have landings
Stairs may split & head in two different directions
Stairs may curve
Stairs may exit into the middle of a corridor

Corridors may be orthogonal or diagonal with respect to compass points
Corridors may change direction (orthogonal/diagonal) at intersections
Corridor width is assumed default of 10'
Corridor with may change, e.g., 10' to 20' wide
Corridors may have long uninterrupted sections e.g., a 70' stretch with no doors or intersections
Corridors may have doors across from each other

Doors are wide enough for three to listen simultaneously

Rooms may be oddly shaped, e.g., trapezoidal

Trap doors may be in rooms
Trap doors may be secret
Trap doors sound hollow
Trap doors may lead to stairs

[grodog]

Dec 31, 2018 17:20:31 GMT -6 aldarron said:

So I put this question here because it seems a reasonable assumption that the "EXAMPLE OF THE REFEREE MODERATING A DUNGEON EXPEDITION" found on U&WA p12 -14, was written by Gygax using actual maps and keys, and that could well mean that it describes a section of Greyhawk dungeon. I was about to map the thing out myself, following the directions of the text, but I wondered if anybody else has already mapped it or made any connection to known sections of the dungeon or known maps (like Gronan's). I wouldn't be surprised if Allen had already done something like this. Anybody know?

aldarron - I have spent some time digging around in the examples of play and sample dungeon maps, including the one from Europa, Dan, but I've been doing so from the POV of planning to build a level that would incorporate the sample maps---I hadn't thought about mapping out all of the examples of play (which is an excellent idea!). The only level that I've tried to map in full from Gary's descriptions was The Black Reservoir, and I then used that analysis as the basis to build my own version of it.

Mar 17, 2021 6:58:51 GMT -6 Zenopus said:

So what does having the map illustrate for us about Gygax's early dungeon design features?

Stairs may have landings
Stairs may split & head in two different directions
Stairs may curve
Stairs may exit into the middle of a corridor

Corridors may be orthogonal or diagonal with respect to compass points
Corridors may change direction (orthogonal/diagonal) at intersections
Corridor width is assumed default of 10'
Corridor with may change, e.g., 10' to 20' wide
Corridors may have long uninterrupted sections e.g., a 70' stretch with no doors or intersections
Corridors may have doors across from each other

Doors are wide enough for three to listen simultaneously

Rooms may be oddly shaped, e.g., trapezoidal

Trap doors may be in rooms
Trap doors may be secret
Trap doors sound hollow
Trap doors may lead to stairs

Great analysis, as always, Zenopus ! I've always felt that stairs, sloping passages, and other "access points" to new levels should be more interesting that they are generally treated in level designs.

Allan.

[howandwhy99]

That map shows how Gary in 1974 was already a genius at D&D game design. Any normal "high quality" text book would remove any extraneous elements from an illustration trying to demonstrate multiple points. Not one dungeon in a hundred drawn today is so easily chaotic and unpredictable, and just plain fun. Mapping was so much what D&D was about.

[grodog]

Anyone thought about mapping out the Example of Play from Europa as well?: odd74.proboards.com/post/220463/thread =)

Allan.