Elves - 2 Classes or Multi-Class?

[hamurai]

I recently had a discussion with some players of my D&D 5e group about how elves are handled in Men & Magic, because we debated changing to OD&D (without supplements) after the campaign. At the end I was unsure about the issue myself, so I wanted to know how you handle them in your game.

It clearly states, they "can begin as either begin as either Fighting-Men or Magic-Users and freely switch class whenever they choose, from adventure to adventure, but not during the course of a single game."

Just from this sentence: They can be either FM or MU and the player decides what class at the beginning of the adventure (here again we argued what counts as an adventure, but that's something different).

But what happens when they switch class? Do they switch Saving Throws and HP, too? Are HP re-rolled every time the elf switches class, or do you keep a record of the respective HP? Or is the next sentence the important one: "Thus, they gain the benefits of both classes and may use both weaponry and spells." Do the "benefits of both classes" count no matter what class the elf plays at the moment? Meaning, they have the FM's HP and fighting capability and the best Saving Throws from both classes? Plus, they can cast spells?

In our discussion, one side reasoned that the experiences of both classes combined make up the elf's overall ability and experience; therefore, they always have the better stats of both classes, no matter what class they are in. The selection of class only affects their XP gain and what class they level up as. (the Multi-Class faction)

Another side argued that elves will have to "wake" memories and experiences of one class to be able to use the benefits, but also gain the drawbacks. Therefore, when playing as FM the elf has FM stats (HP, Saves...) and effectively is a FM. When playing as MU, the same is true for the MU stats. With the exception that they can use magic armor as MU. (the 2-Class faction)

What's your take on this? Personally, I can well understand both arguments...

Also, dear veterans, how did you use to play elves back in the day? Has anything changed?

Thanks for your insight!

[murquhart72]

Oh boy... HERE WE GO!

[talysman]

In Greyhawk, it explicitly states that they are multiclass, so I assume you are talking about a no-Greyhawk approach. The important sentences are:

Elves can begin as either Fighting-Men or Magic-Users and freely switch class whenever they choose, from adventure to adventure, but not during the course of a single game. Thus, they gain the benefits of both classes and may use both weaponry and spells. They may use magic armor and still act as Magic-Users.

Let's break it down:

"... freely switch class whenever they choose"

This should be read in the context of the section on Changing Character Class at the top of page 10:

While changing class (for other than elves) is not recommended, the following rule should be applied: In order for men to change class they must have a score of 16 or better in the prime requisite (see below) of the class they wish to change to, and this score must be unmodified.

So, human characters can only change to a class that they rolled a 16, 17, or 18 for that ability when first creating the character. Elves, on the other hand, can change to either M-U or F regardless of what their scores are, and can change back.

"... not during the course of a single game."

I believe "game" here refers to a session. I'd argue that the previous part about "adventure to adventure" is not referring to a distinct unit of time, but is just emphasizing that sometimes, elves are fighters, and other times, they are magic-users.

"... they gain the benefits of both classes"

It doesn't say "at the same time", so let's temporarily consider that up in the air. But for saving throws and hit points, I believe elven characters should keep the best score they have to date. So, when beginning as a fighter, they get a fighter's saves and initial hit points. When switching to magic-user, they keep any fighter saves that are better than their M-U saves, and they re-roll hit dice, but keep their original hit points if that score is higher than the new roll. When they switch back to fighter, again they keep any score that is better. Thus, elves only improve, same as any other class. This is also how I would handle saves and hit points for human characters who change class.

"... They may use magic armor and still act as Magic-Users."

In other words, any magic items that worked for an elf fighter will continue to work when they become a magic-user. It's left unsaid, but the inverse should apply, too: elven fighters should be able to use magic wands, for example.

What isn't clear is whether elves can still cast spells while acting as a fighter, or whether their combat ability goes down when they switch to magic-user. I would say they should be able to cast spells, but not prepare (memorize) spells while acting as a fighter, and they should use the best combat ability of the two classes. My only justification for this is the entry for elves in Monsters & Treasure (Volume 2, p16,) which list higher-ability elves as having levels for both classes, up to Hero/Warlock. If elves literally cannot cast spells while acting as fighters, it makes no sense to note levels for both classes when stocking a dungeon or wilderness hex with elves as monsters.

[scottyg]

Regardless of how ambiguous the rest of the description may be, they can wear magic armor and cast spells. If they can do that, there’s no reason any other class abilities would be restricted. Pre supplement, I think the only thing you choose is what class is going g to be gaining experience points on that adventure.

[hamurai]

Nov 12, 2018 19:54:08 GMT -6 talysman said:

In Greyhawk, it explicitly states that they are multiclass, so I assume you are talking about a no-Greyhawk approach.

Exactly.

Thanks for your insight!

[hamurai]

Nov 13, 2018 8:47:06 GMT -6 Piper said:

Not a btb interpretation but that's how I ran it bitd.

That's exactly what I'm looking for, thank you! The book started our discussion and I'd like to hear from many people how they have chosen to play.

[Finarvyn]

My group always thought the switch from one adventure to the next was pretty bizarre and didn't match our concept of Tolkien's elves (which was the gold standard at the time). As such, our elves were given the choice at the moment of character creation: fighter, magic user, combo.

I'm not certain of the terminology (multi-class, dual-class, whatever) but we allowed our elves to fight and sling spells simultaneously with using swords and wearing armor. Maybe this was the birth of the munchkin class?

[scottyg]

I never divided HD in OD&D. All HD being d6 made it easy. Each time a class was the first to reach a new level, the PC got a new HD, i.e. the first class to reach 2nd level adds a HD to the HP total, when the other class reached 2nd level, no new HP.

[delta]

My house rule (passingly similar to some others) is that players of elves can split their XP up between the two classes however they want, and use the best entry for attacks, saves, armor, weapons, etc. Hit points are tracked in each class separately and the higher value applies on any adventure. I permit spellcasting in chain but not plate (as seen for a lot of Gygaxian elves).

Initially I tried to honor the "switch class whenever they choose, from adventure to adventure, but not during the course of a single game" as the advance choice of which class was getting all earned XP... but that choice was routinely forgotten during game sessions, so I ditched it and now allow free splitting of earned XP however desired at the time of the award. * There's been some interesting tough choices for my players with that.


* (I suppose, as I read what I wrote there, that I could just require all earned XP to go to one class, with choice at time of award. I think at some point in the past I used to do all XP calculations post-game. My current rule is simple enough that I can do it in about a minute at the table. Hmm, time to edit my house rules again.)

[waysoftheearth]

I've tested various ways of running elves in recent years.

I personally favour the notion that "switching" applies only to which class XP goes into, with Elves being allowed to "act as M-Us" even while employing the F-M's weapons and armor (sure, M&M is only explicit for magic armor, but I'm willing to stretch it a bit). I let them throw both class's HD and choose the higher result; other stats are the best of the two.

The "flaw" in this approach is perhaps that post level cap there is no cost/overhead whatever to the player for subsequently piling all XP into the other class. (GH "fixes" this by ruling that XP is always divided evenly, even post level cap).

Ultimately, the GH approach is probably the best all round fit for me. With the possibility of the player starting out single classed and "adding" another class at some subsequent time (between adventures).

Funny thing is, for all the fuss over precisely how the XP are accounted, it doesn't make all that much difference to play.

[raisin]

Fighting-Elfs get to use any magic item but not prepare or cast spells.
Magic-Elfs get to wear *magic* armor but otherwise act as regular MUs.

The real advantage is that they get to pick one or the other, meaning one character can fill two different roles.

HD, Saves, Attacks and XP (Charts, Prime Requisites) are based on which class is currently in use. I don't keep track of HP in-between games, you re-roll them for each session - in addition, players don't record their saving throws or to hit chances, so the only thing that needs to be added for Elfs is the potential two different PR scores for XP.

[Porphyre]

Monsters & Treasures states, about the elfs;

For every 50 Elves encountered there will be one of above-normal capabilities. Roll a foursided die for level of fighting and a six-sided die for level of magical ability, treating any 1's rolled as 2's and 6's (magical level), as 5's. For every 100 encountered there will be a Hero/Warlock.

From this, we can deduce that: 
a/ only special individuals are dual-classed, most are just "normal elves" fighting as level 1 fighting-men (1+1 Hit Dice) -except their uncanny ability to remain unheard or unseen , but that comes from their gear.
b/ there is no arithmetical correlation between the FM and the MU level , each being randomly determined: the elf band leader could as well be FM4/MU1 as FM1/MU5.

From this, thats how I would deal this: 
The Elf character starts as either a level 1 veteran or medium, with the corresponding Hit Dice, Hit Rolls , saves and ability regarding weaponry, magic items or spells. The XP goes to the choosen class.
At the beginning of a new "game", he can :
- either carry on in the same class and keep piling up XP 
- start a new carreer in the other class: he re-rolls Hit points in the new class , keeps better score, gains the abilities of the new class and keeps those of his former class (a Fighting-Elf who opts to become a MU can use magic items and fling spells but can still use a sword and armor) , uses the best hit roll and saves. All gaines XP go to the new class. 
At teh next "game" , he can swap again or continue in the new class.
Und so weiter

[howandwhy99]

In part it is up to the interpretation of your game referee. It's up to them to provide a balanced game design.

For me, I side with your multiclass interpretation. Each class is a unique game experience and requires mastering the game in a different way. This does not mean there is no overlap with the other classes. A high level M-U still gains some character abilities in combat and alignment portions of the game. They simply aren't scored for it. As their level increases they become more and more focused experts. At 1st level the characters are still largely similar in overall ability, just like the players.

So I assume the characters are training and improve at their abilities, never decline. For multi and dual class characters the abilities of all classes are retained from previous experience, but are not used during the course of play. This is by election of the player. They do not gain XP when they step outside their declared role (class). To be clear, if you switched from M-U to F-M, by putting on F-M armor and using F-M weapons for instance, in a combat you might succeed at staying alive, but you wouldn't get XP for either class for the combat.

Some DMs are strict about not gaining XP for an entire session for such actions, but I allow class switching at appropriate points in the game where related XP-gaining actions have stopped. Switching in the midst is what causes confused play and therefore loses potential class-focused scoring gains, your XP.

In my game, multiclass stats are just like your Multiclass interpretation. Each new level gained improves scores and abilities, but does not lessen them or take them away. They are not compounded like in 3.x and later D&D. I track individual HP rolls, so a multiclass or dual-class character rolls HP to beat their previous roll for the level they are overlapping. If they succeed, they gain the new HP score for that level. And their overall HP total of course increases.