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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 2, 2018 20:10:28 GMT -6
I'm not entirely certain how to ask this question, but I have a pretty extensive collection of JRR's works but am somewhat overwhelmed at trying to put all of the materials together into a complete chronology. Many of the resources offer various versions of the same stories and I know that the Professor never had a chance to select the "final" version of each and/or put them all into a consistent history either so my question may be nonsensical because it can't be done with any certainty after his death. At the same time, I'd like to get a better picture of what are the "best" versions to read, etc. And I know that I'm no Tolkien scholar. I've read a lot of stuff over the decades, but my memory for details like this is weak at best and I tend not to retain a lot of the little things that I read so I know this sort of thing is way over my head. Falconer got me thinking about this thanks to a post he made in the "Fall of Gondolin" thread: Unfortunately there IS indeed a VERY readable piece of fiction in there. Read “The Last Version,” and then where it leaves off revert to “The Earliest Text.” Those are the only two extant versions of the WORK entitled THE FALL OF GONDOLIN. Edit to add: I meant “ The Last Version” and then “ The Original Tale” (starting at page 51—Tuor asks the seven names of Hidden Kingdom). Sorry. Clearly, Falconer has a better "big picture" view of the histories than I do. So, here are some of the resources that I have access to, in some form of chronological order: 1. The Silmarillion (First Age and the War of the Jewels) 2. The Children of Hurin (overlap with the Silmarillion) 3. Beren and Luthien (overlap with the Silmarillion) 4. Fall of Gondolin (overlap with the Silmarillion) 5. Unfinished Tales (has 2nd Age and pre-LotR material) 6. The Hobbit 7. The Lord of the Rings (with appendixes that overlap everything) That part seems pretty straightforward so far, but the 12-volume History of Middle-earth has all sorts of stories and/or versions of other stories and I have no idea which are most significant and which can be safely ignored. I know at the time of the publication of the Silmarillion the chronology had many uncertainties, but was Christopher Tolkien ever able to do this for his father's works? Is there any way to determine which HoME stories are "essential" and where they would fit into the big picture?
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Post by Stormcrow on Sept 3, 2018 8:12:08 GMT -6
Many of the resources offer various versions of the same stories and I know that the Professor never had a chance to select the "final" version of each and/or put them all into a consistent history either so my question may be nonsensical because it can't be done with any certainty after his death. At the same time, I'd like to get a better picture of what are the "best" versions to read, etc. The History of Middle-earth series is organized the way it is because there is no such thing as a "correct" internal chronology or a "final" version of anything. Tolkien would often write a detailed story that started to get away from him, stop, go back, and change forms from, say, a myth inside a framing story into a historical document and outline. He'd reframe the original story in this new form, ignoring — but not contradicting — stuff that wasn't appropriate in the new format and then letting the outline get away from him again, adding new stuff and slowing changing into a narrative. The text that we eventually got, The Silmarillion, was Christopher's attempt to turn his father's various texts more or less into a coherent whole in the form of a novel. It wasn't that Tolkien was working toward a novel form of the legendarium the whole time and just didn't get to finish it. The search for absoluteness in Tolkien's works is in vain. You're much better off learning the various version of a given story and choosing your favorite features to focus on.
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Post by Finarvyn on Sept 3, 2018 9:47:36 GMT -6
I guess I knew much of that, Stormcrow, to one degree or another. I was kind of hoping that in the years since The Silmarillion that perhaps some advancement had been made in coming up with a "best" version of everything. A lot can happen in 40 years... I appreciate the perspective, however.
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Post by Falconer on Sept 3, 2018 10:42:11 GMT -6
Hey, Finarvy. Yeah, unfortunately HoMe is presented as a study in the evolution of Tolkien’s writing, and not chronologically “in-universe”.
For this chronology we will take for granted that you have read The Silmarillion, which basically gives an overview of the mythology in summary form, and instead we’re going to zoom in and read the long-form versions of the legends—which all do exist! By and large, you can class all of Tolkien’s writings in an “early” or a “late” period. RARELY did he ever rewrite something in the late period that he had already written in the early period; but where he did extensive rewrites — namely, for the three “Great Tales” — we’re going to read both versions, because each version fleshes out a different area of the story or is incomplete in some way.
There are stylistic and nomenclature differences between the early and late materials, but as long as that doesn’t throw you, it’s awesome to put it all together and enjoy the full magnificent tapestry.
This post will focus on the First Age stories. E = early; L = late. Roman numerals for volume of HoMe. Other abbreviations hopefully obvious.
FRAMING STORY E - Ælfwine of England (II) E - The Cottage of Lost Play (I)
TALES OF VALINOR E - The Music of the Ainur (I) E - The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor (I) E - The Chaining of Melko (I) L - The Awaking of the Quendi (XI) E - The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr (I) L - Finwë and Miriel (X) E - The Theft of Melko and the Darkening of Valinor (I) E - The Flight of the Noldoli (I) E - The Tale of the Sun and Moon (I) E - The Hiding of Valinor (I) E - Gilfanon’s Tale: The Travail of the Noldoli and the Coming of Mankind (I) L - Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (X)
TALES OF BELERIAND E - The Tale of Tinúviel (BL) L - The Lay of Leithian (III) E - The Lay of the Children of Húrin (III) L - Narn i Chîn Húrin (CH) L - Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin (FG “The Last Version” - best inserted after ch. 12 of CH) L - The Wanderings of Húrin (XI) E - The Nauglafring (II - start with last few pages of “Turambar and the Foalókë”) E - The Fall of Gondolin (FG “The Original Tale”)
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 3, 2018 11:25:44 GMT -6
That's a really great outline you cobbled together Falconer .
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Post by Falconer on Sept 3, 2018 16:03:12 GMT -6
This is the good stuff for the Second Age—
FRAMING STORY The Notion Club Papers (IX)
TALES OF NÚMENOR Aldarion and Erendis (UT) Tal-Elmar (XII) The Drowning of Anadûnê (IX)
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Post by Falconer on Sept 3, 2018 23:55:08 GMT -6
The History of the Rings (Mainly the Third Age, but including also non-Númenórean Second Age stories through the early Fourth Age)
Outside the novels, most writings tackle a subject and present its complete history from the beginning to the end of the Age. And of course they assume you have read the novels. Thus it is not as useful to put into chronological order. But, without getting too fiddly, let’s try anyway! We’re going to mainly look at Appendix A and UNFINISHED TALES, plus only one or two other important bits.
The History of Galadriel and Celeborn (UT) Durin’s Folk (RK) The Drúedain (UT) The Disaster of the Gladden Fields (UT)
The Númenorean Kings - parts i-iv (RK) The Istari (UT) Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan (UT) The House of Eorl (RK)
Prologue (FR) The Adventures of Tom Bombadil - poems 1-2 The Quest for Erebor (UT) The Hobbit
The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen (RK) The Palantíri (UT) The Hunt for the Ring (UT) The Battles of the Fords of Isen (UT) The Lord of the Rings
The Epilogue (IX) The Adventures of Tom Bombadil - Preface and poems 3-16 The New Shadow (XII)
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